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Sea Survival Equipment

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carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: Sea Survival Equipment

Surviving a sea ditching.

  

 Looking in the latest issue of the Transair  catalogue the Survival Equipment offered is limited to Lifejackets, ELT's and  Liferafts.

  

 IHMO, lifejackets are OK but bearinging mind the  survivability in the North Sea is limited to approximately 20 mins its a bit of  a risk to assume you would be rescued within that time.

  

 Ideally a liferaft would be the best option but  weight and bulk are a consideration in the Europa - not to mention  cost.

  

 ELT's - does anyone have any experirnce/  reccomendations of these and are they legal for use and carriage in the  UK?

  

 Additionally I think it would be a good idea to  carry a DYE pack and smoke flares but these dont seem to be readily available in  the UK (and would they be legal to carry - ie: flares or smoke canisters).  I suspect that smoke is probably the most  effective way of visually identifying ones position in the water.

  

 I think many of us assume that in a daylight  channel crossing it would be possible to attract the attention of a passing ship  or vessel but short of ditching in the path of a suitable vessel (which could be  dangerous) the chances of being spotted immediately are probably not that  high.

  

 Any suggestions.

  

     [quote][b]

simon.miles(at)skynet.be
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:38 pm Post subject: Sea Survival Equipment

Carl,

 

 Did you know the rules regarding ELTs in Europe changed recently.

 

 Here are some extracts from the ANO Amendment:

  

 (5) An aeroplane flying for a purpose other than public transport over water beyond gliding distance from land must carry life jackets, each equipped with a whistle and a survival locator light. (Article 4(11)). 

 

 

 (15) From 1st January 2007 an aeroplane or a helicopter flying for a purpose other than public transport more than 10 minutes flying time away from land must carry an emergency locator transmitter (ELT). The ELT must either be removable from the aircraft and be manually activated by survivors or be permanently attached to an aircraft and automatically activated in an emergency (an automatic ELT). When flying over areas in which search and rescue would be especially difficult an automatic ELT must be carried. (Article 4(11) and (13)). 

 

 

 Scale KK 

 

 (1) A survival emergency locator transmitter capable of operating in accordance with the relevant provisions of Annex 10 to the Chicago Convention, Volume III (Fifth Edition July 1995) and of transmitting on 121.5 MHz and 406 MHz. 

 

 (2) An automatic emergency locator transmitter capable of operating in accordance with the relevant provisions of Annex 10 to the Chicago Convention, Volume III (Fifth Edition July 1995) and transmitting on 121.5 MHz and 406 MHz.

 

 

 Simon Miles

 

 Carl Pattinson wrote: [quote]            Surviving a sea ditching.

    

   Looking in the latest issue of the Transair catalogue the Survival Equipment offered is limited to Lifejackets, ELT's and Liferafts.

    

   IHMO, lifejackets are OK but bearinging mind the survivability in the North Sea is limited to approximately 20 mins its a bit of a risk to assume you would be rescued within that time.

    

   Ideally a liferaft would be the best option but weight and bulk are a consideration in the Europa - not to mention cost.

    

   ELT's - does anyone have any experirnce/ reccomendations of these and are they legal for use and carriage in the UK?

    

   Additionally I think it would be a good idea to carry a DYE pack and smoke flares but these dont seem to be readily available in the UK (and would they be legal to carry - ie: flares or smoke canisters). I suspect that smoke is probably the most effective way of visually identifying ones position in the water.

    

   I think many of us assume that in a daylight channel crossing it would be possible to attract the attention of a passing ship or vessel but short of ditching in the path of a suitable vessel (which could be dangerous) the chances of being spotted immediately are probably not that high.

    

   Any suggestions.

    

    	  Quote: 	
		  

	
 [b]

robert.hitchcock(at)virgi
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:10 am Post subject: Sea Survival Equipment

I take a McMurmdo Fastfind plus  (i.e. with GPS). and a good quality lifejacket; Paramis GA1

  

 With two up, plus full fuel and  luggage for a weeks touring for two there is not  enough weight allowance remaining for a life-raft in my case. The  logic being that the McMurdo types offers a high quality ELT, hopefully the  rescue helicopter will come straight to you. 

  

 Some of the ELT's will no longer  be "legal" shortly, there is a move to make most registered. Mine is registered  to me as pilot of my aircraft. The very latest spec lifejacket e.g. Paramis GA1  offers a splash hood and safety ring. (remember to buy a manual inflation  model!). 

  

 Trust this helps

  

 Regards

  

 Bob

  

  

 [quote]   ---

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:28 am Post subject: Sea Survival Equipment

See debate at 

 http://www.pfa.org.uk/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000090

 We've been 'stitched-up' again by the legislature.  Only approved ELTs can be carried (which stop working and sink in sea  water!)

  

 Duncan McF.

 [quote]   ---

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:12 am Post subject: Sea Survival Equipment

Carl, I think your 20 mins survival in the channel is pessimistic. Current

sea temp in the channel is around 11 C at which death from hypothermia is

said to be unlikely in less than 90 mins - and this is close to the coolest

sea water temp of the year. There is much interesting info on ditching and

survival times vs water temp on http://www.equipped.org/ditchingmyths.htm

together with the  linked pages. A dinghy doesnt need to weigh more than 10

lbs, although a survival kit may add to that, and I would personally carry

one for long or cold sea crossings, but not for a summer short channel

crossing. I do also carry a McMurdo Paines Fastfind Plus PLB attached to my

person.

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

---

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:55 am Post subject: Sea Survival Equipment

Why not use survival suites, as carried by oil platform personnel on helicopter rides? These will keep you alive in any water for more then 24 hrs. I've seen those in Norway, in a shop supplying material for fisherman. The price, weight and bulkiness were way lower then i expected them to be. Maybe our Norwegian friends can supply some more details? And instead of an elt, i would go for a combination of elt and gps equipped PLB. I've been on SAR training missions searching for an elt, and it's not as easy as it's supposed to be. As for the legal requirements: My first objective would be to increase the chance of survival. Second comes the legality  



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

wmjack1(at)t3cs.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:34 am Post subject: Sea Survival Equipment

Some authoritative information about Distress Alerting EPIRBs / ELTs (121.5 MHz

vs. 406 MHz), including their function, capability, coverage and legality in the

US can be found at: http://www.equipped.org/406_vs_1215.htm



Regards,



Jack Hilditch



--

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:48 am Post subject: Sea Survival Equipment

Jos Okhuijsen - said



 	  Quote: 	
		   I've been on SAR training missions searching for an elt, and it's not as 

 easy as it's supposed to be.


	


Thats why I raised the point about using smoke or sea dye. I know nothing 

whatsoever about ELT technology but I figured it would only give a general 

location as to where the ELT is located - ie it isnt direction sensitive. My 

guess an ELT will only guide the search helicopter or vessel to within a 

mile or two of the target and then its down to the Mk1 eyeball.



Assuming there is time to make a mayday call that alone should be sufficient 

to guide search and rescue to within a couple of miles but there is no 

guarantee you could make that call in an emergency or accurately give your 

location - I must see if there is a button on my Garmin which will display 

the GPS coordinates.



Smoke or dye makes it much quicker to locate a downed craft as there may 

well be other small vessels in the search area and the SAR would need to 

elimnate these as possible targets.



As to immersion suits I am not sure these are any lighter than carrying a 

raft (Transair sells a raft which is 12kg) - maybe someone makes a 

lightweight version. I personally feel that a bulky survival suit would be 

somewhat impractical for flying. Purely from a weight point of view a diving 

wet suit would afford a considerable improvement in survivability.

---

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:30 am Post subject: Sea Survival Equipment

As someone who has done military sea survival training and aerial search

training over the sea I have the following comments:



1. Even with temperatures as warm as 12degC it doesn't take long before

dexterity is affected enough to prevent you doing the simplest of tasks.

2. Staying dry is the best way of increasing the chances of preventing

hypothermia. A dinghy helps but a survival suit is better.

3. Visual acquisition of even a 26 man liferaft in anything but the

smoothest of sea conditions is difficult so don't rely on being found by

visual searching in a small dinghy. A floating aircraft may be better

but white aircraft are far from ideal in this respect.

4. A friend of mine ditched in the English Channel in the month of

October (the best month for water temperature is September). He was in

the water for only 35 minutes and spent 2 days in hospital overcoming

hypothermia. He had a dinghy but it failed to inflate. He had no

ELT/PLB, the aircraft sank in 2 minutes and he was only found because

the helicopter saw the heat return from his head on a thermal imaging

camera. This all took place just 2 miles off the coast of the Isle of

Wight.

5. As a result of all this we use survival suits. They certainly weigh

less than a dinghy. They are less likely to fail. If you get out of the

aircraft they are keeping you dry immediately. Some cases of ditching

resulted in the dinghy not being extracted before the aircraft sank. The

suits are a little bulky - slight lengthening of straps required.

Comfort has not been a problem, especially if you fly at altitude or

with the vents open. I have taken off with an OAT of 33degC and was soon

comfortable at altitude.

6. I have a PLB but need to update to better modern technology. I also

carry my handheld VHF in a waterproof bag as a back up.

7. If the aircraft doesn't sink it provides a basic form of protection

as well as being a location aid. Those with significant amounts of foam

within them have an advantage in this respect.

8. On the day I would suggest the following precautions:

	a. Be continually aware of where your nearest suitable piece of

land 	is for an emergency landing.

	b. Know the approximate glide range of the aircraft in case of

engine 	failure.

	c. Fly as high as practicable consistent with VFR to increase

glide 	range, range for communications and time for exact position

fixing in 	the event of engine failure.

	d. Note position of smaller boats as you fly past them. Large

ships, 	even if you are spotted, take an age to stop and are difficult

to 	manoeuvre.

	e. Brief your passenger. How many of you take note of the

emergency 	briefing on an airliner?

	f. Do not assume the engine will fail in the case of loss of oil

or 	coolant. One Europa has flown half way across the Channel after

total 	loss of oil pressure. Better to ruin the engine rather than risk

your 	life from ditching.

	g. Check all engine T's and P's before coasting out.

There must be many more things I have missed out. Perhaps someone can

add to my list.



Nigel Charles

--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: Sea Survival Equipment

Off topic but this came through on the canard forum, highly relevant I 

thought, test flying a mono without training on type is a good way of 

needing a new prop !

Mark Zeitling flies an EZ and works for Rutan, probably on the next 

space ship, he hasn't told us.



Graham



   Technical Counselor Newsletter from EAA

Posted by: "Marc J. Zeitlin" marc_zeitlin(at)alum.mit.edu   zeitlinm

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:33 pm (PST)

Folks:



As a Technical Counselor for the EAA, I get a newsletter (brand new,

apparently - this is Volume 1, Issue 1) call "Safety Wire". It's for

Flight Advisors too. I'm guessing that a number of you out there have

received this by now.



It was a bit thin, being brand new, but there was an interesting set

of statistics regarding Experimental Amateur Built aircraft.

Apparently, 6% of all exp. am-built fatal accidents occur on the first

or second flight of the aircraft. This is an AMAZINGLY high

percentage - it means 1/16th of all fatal accidents occur in the first

two flights - evened out, it would mean that an Exp. am-built aircraft

would have a lifetime of 32 flights. Obviously, this isn't correct,

so it shows that the dangers of the first couple of flights is WAY

higher than subsequent flights. I suppose that this seems intuitively

obvious, but this puts some quantitative value to the difference in

danger.



What's this mean? For those of you building, USE the TC program, and

even more importantly, USE the Flight Advisor program. Get a LOT of

review of your aircraft, and get a LOT of review of YOUR capabilities

before taking that first flight. Be current, and be current in many

different types of aircraft, or at LEAST in the type of aircraft that

you're going to fly. Transition training is critical to reducing the

danger of the first flight.



Be safe.....



-- 

Marc J. Zeitlin mailto:marc_zeitlin(at)alum.mit.edu

http://www.cozybuilders.org/

scrimm

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 81
Location: Gilbert, SC SC99

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: Sea Survival Equipment

Having been involved in many over water searches for downed aircraft I have

found that civilian pilots are not properly equipped as a general rule.  If

it is not on your person when you go down you may be "SOL".  Having found a

UH-1H that went down, the one thing that remained in the area and was the

easiest to spot from 500AGL was sea dye.  It was amazing how easy it was to

find the military survivors when they used dye.  It was a green dye and

spread out and covered an area almost the size of a football (US) field in a

matter of 20 minutes after they went down.  Once I found the dye it then

still took a minute or so to locate the crew in their 10 man raft.  Much

easier to see the dye than the raft, but the dye is what lead me to them.



BTW Sun N Fun was great



Steve

N42AH

Still for Sale

www.stephenscott.com/Europa

--

_________________
Steve Crimm
N42AH

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: Sea Survival Equipment

Sea dye works best when the sea is reasonably calm. If the sea is rough

it is difficult to sea because it gets broken up by wave action and also

there is less colour contrast.



Nigel Charles



--

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