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Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:17 am Post subject: Gasohol

Is anyone out there currently running with the 10% Ethanol mix and if so  what problems if any are running into with your carbs or seals.

  

  

  

 Steve B



See what's free at AOL.com. 

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DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: Gasohol

In a message dated 4/11/2007 7:18:34 AM Central Standard Time, N27SB(at)aol.com writes: 

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

Is anyone out there currently running with the 10% Ethanol mix and if so what problems if any are running into with your carbs or seals. 

  

  

  

Steve B 

 

      Steve, 

  I have flown 30- 40 gallons through my Firefly with no apparent difference although It is known to be a more corrosive mixture than straight gas. I AlWAYS use a Mr. funnel which is supposed to remove water. I buy the gas the day I use it. Any left over I remove and burn in another vehicle on the ground. Time will tell. My biggest concern is that the internal bearings could be rusting without me knowing. Time will tell.  All mogas around Houston has alcohol. 	
 

 

            Ed Diebel   ( FF# 62) 

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   	
 

 

**************************************

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Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Gasohol

Steve, all of the gas here in Minnesota is 10% ethanol, although there are a few stations that are enthanol-free. I used the ethanol gas for many years and the 447 ran fine. A friend of mine started using the ethanol-free and I thought his engine ran smoother, so I switched over and have had good luck with it.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: Gasohol

| Steve, all of the gas here in Minnesota is 10% ethanol, although 

there are a few stations that are enthanol-free.

| Ralph



Ralph:



My biggest concern operating a 2 stroke on ethanol laced fuel is 

moisture in the crank case, rusting main ball bearings.  Might also 

attack the cast iron piston rings.



I don't know, just thinking out loud.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: Gasohol

---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: Gasohol

| Would moisture have a chance to rust anything with the Pennzoil?  I 

can see

| synthetic allowing rust, but natural oil?

| Larry, Oregon



Larry:



Those are my thoughts.  Don't know for sure.  You all can bat it 

around and solve the problem.



Interval between flights may play a big role in corrosion of internal 

engine parts.  I would think the longer they sit without operation, 

especially full power to a good operating temp, the more chance for 

corrosion.  The worst case would be cranking one, letting it run a 

short while without bringing it to operating temp.  Condensation would 

be waiting for that.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: Re: Gasohol

Here in Hawaii, E-10 was mandated by the legislature last year.  There is no ethanol free gas available at this time.  This mixture has damaged a number of marine engines and small engines for several reasons.



Boats with fiberglass fuel tanks have had major problems.  The ethanol apparently softens the resin.  The resin residue has gunked up and damaged engines.  Also, small pieces of fiberglass break off from the softened resin, and clog the filters and carbs.



In a moist enviornment, the ethanol absorbs water until it is saturated.  A gunky mixture of ethanol and water precipitates out and clogs carbs.  Some of the small engine operators (like yard services) have been adding Sea Foam, and have reported it solves the clogged carb problem.  Also, ethanol is corrisive, and can damage fuel system parts that are not designed for an ethanol mixture.



There is a bill in the legislature this year that would make 92 octane ethanol free gas available.  The theory is that the high octane gas would serve any engine that needs ethanol free fuel.



I spoke to a Bing representative, and asked him if Bing carbs are OK to use with ethanol.  He told me all of their products manufactured in the past few years will not be damaged by ethanol.  In general, I believe it is best to use straight gas in both the two and four stroke engines we use, if you can get it.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:49 am Post subject: Gasohol

In a message dated 4/15/2007 5:43:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  up_country(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Here in Hawaii, E-10 was mandated by the legislature last    year.  There is no ethanol free gas available at this time.  This    mixture has damaged a number of marine engines and small engines for several    reasons.



	


 

 Hi Dave,  Have you checked at the local airport? I thought that  aircraft that were STC'd for Mogas were not allowed ethanol and you could get  straight gas at the FBO.

  

        Boats with fiberglass fuel  tanks have had major problems.  The ethanol apparently  softens             resin.  The resin residue has gunked up and damaged engines.  Also,  small pieces of fiberglass break off from the softened resin, and clog the  filters and carbs.



The FRP industry has already responded to  this issue in the form of Ethanol resistant resins. Recently I have located  several options. It appears that newer tanks with the right resin should be OK.  Major boat companies are still building integral tanks with the new  resins.

 My major concern is the effects that the gasohol has on the Rotax.

  

 Steve



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Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:30 am Post subject: Re: Gasohol

John, I would think if ethanol posed a real problem we would have seen it by now in cars. The stations have had ethanol for over 10 years. I use it when flying on trips where that's all I can get besides 100LL.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: Gasohol

In a message dated 4/14/2007 8:04:56 PM Central Standard Time, jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com writes: 

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  My biggest concern operating a 2 stroke on ethanol laced fuel is  

moisture in the crank case, rusting main ball bearings.  Might also  

attack the cast iron piston rings. 

 

I don't know, just thinking out loud. 

 

john h 

mkIII 	
 

 

       John, 

   

     I feel the same way as I live where the humidity is seldom les than 70%. Did you ever use fogging preservation oil in your early 2-strokes, and do you think that is a good idea. All I know is my manual said to run preservation oil through the carb on my 447.  I have heard others say yes and no. At this time Im not sure what to do ,but I am leaning toward following Rotax's  advice, except it seems to be hard on the plugs and I have to replace them sooner. .I plan on doing a proper Decarb and inspection at 50 hours. What is the longest you have run a 447 without a decarbon and not had trouble? 

 

           Ed Diebel

**************************************

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Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:41 am Post subject: Re: Gasohol

What is Octane Number (AKI)?



The AKI (Anti-Knock Index) is a measure of a particular gasoline blend’s ability to resist engine knock. The stickers seen on gasoline dispensers describing the Regular, Midgrade, and Premium grades of gasoline as “87”, “89”, or “91” octane are commonly referred to as octane numbers. However, it is more accurate to refer to those numbers as the Anti-Knock Index value or simply the AKI.



The AKI is determined in a laboratory by operating, under differing operating conditions, two separate single-cylinder engines: a “Research” engine, by which a Research Octane Number (RON) is determined and a “Motor” engine, by which the Motor Octane Number (MON) is determined. The AKI posted on gasoline dispensers is determined by the following mathematical equation: (RON+MON)/2 or (R+M)/2.



Rotax and HKS use RON numbers as the recommended octane in their manuals.  Here's a cross reference table:



AKI    RON    MON



87      90       83



89      92       85



92      96       88

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:33 am Post subject: Gasohol

What is the longest

| you have run a 447 without a decarbon and not had trouble?

|

|           Ed

Hi Ed:



Remember, I was flying a 1985 and 86, vintage 447 with dual point ign 

and caged wrist pin beIIIarings.  In those days, I would get about 250 

hours before the engine would get sick enough to tear down and 

rebuild.  My philosphy was to fly them until they showed some sign of 

getting tired or sick.  I did a lot of cross country flying back then. 

Flew 5,800 rpm normally.  Higher at times.  We didn't do decarbons 

back then, per se.



I had two engines back then.  My second engine was one of the Disney 

World engines.  I kept one built on the bench all the time.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: Gasohol

At 12:31 AM 4/16/2007, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  In a message dated 4/14/2007 8:04:56 PM Central Standard Time, jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com writes: 



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  My biggest concern operating a 2 stroke on ethanol laced fuel is 

 moisture in the crank case. 

 john h 

 mkIII 	


 

       John, 

   

     I feel the same way as I live where the humidity is seldom less than 70%.

           Ed Diebel

 	


 Me too.

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:43 am Post subject: Gasohol

Possum:



You flying to Lakeland?



Do the lakes in Georgia have alcohol in them?



john h

mkIII



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Gasohol

Hi Steve,



There are other countries in the world that use up to 18% ethanol. When I was in the Rotax class Eric Tucker said not to worry about it unless you were flying over 8K in altitude because they worried about some phase seperation. The Ethanol in the USA typically runs between 5.5-10%. He said the amount of alcohol we have in our fuels have not really caused any problems. Unless you have a lot of water in the fuel and fly at 10K for extended periods I don't think I would worry a lot about it. 

I wouldn't worry about corrosion unless you knownly have a lot of water in your fuel or you let it sit without starting it on a regular basis. Regular running is a key element here and making sure you build up the proper engine temps while flying.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: Gasohol

| I wouldn't worry about corrosion unless you knownly have a lot of 

water in your fuel or you let it sit without starting it on a regular 

basis. Regular running is a key element here and making sure you build 

up the proper engine temps while flying.

|

| --------

| Roger Lee

Roger:



You didn't mention water in the carb fuel bowls.



Based on personal experience, a drop of water in the float bowls for 

30 days will create crud, flaking, and lots of corrosion where that 

drop of water lives.  Doesn't matter if you are flying regularly or 

not.



There is a water fence around the main jet well in the float bowl. 

This keep water in the bowl, until it can hop over the fence.  While 

it is in the bowl it is steadily eating away at the pot metal.



One of those little tiny flakes of crap is enough to cause engine 

failure.  Been there and done that with my 912 and the 912 on the 

factory Sling Shot 912.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Gasohol

If you have that kind of an issue with water then you should pop the carb bowl off once in a while to check them. Why would anyone leave a bowl with water in it. I live in a dry climate and water is not a problem, but if I lived where you do then I would check it once in a while and use a water trapping filter to put fuel into my plane. May not be a cure all, but it couldn't hurt. Install a float bowl manual drain and drain them every so often then you'll know for sure.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:53 pm Post subject: Gasohol

Hi Guys,

  

 FYI

  

 Here in NJ we have up to 10% Ethanol in all grades of auto fuel.   Along with everyone else, I have been concerned about the Ethanol (being  laced with water), causing rust in the bearings and cylinders, etc.

  

 I have just disassembled my Rotax 447 two-stroke engine because  it had lost 300 RPM during takeoff.  I was happy to find "no  evidence of rust" in the crankshaft/connecting rod/cylinder area.  It was  all clean and shiny.  This engine has been run infrequently since  October 2006 and I did not take any special steps to prepare it for storage,  other than to use the enrichener (choke) during shutdown.  Not the best of  care, I must admit.

  

 The cause of the power loss was due to poor piston ring seating.  I  had purchased this engine used and it performed OK for awhile, but over time it  began to loose RPM.  The cylinder linings had to be honed  to renew the cross hatch and then I installed new rings.  The  clearances are still within close specs so I did not have to over bore.

  



 Bill  Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not  Archive



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henry.voris

Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 116
Location: Pueo Field, Kula, Maui

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Gasohol

Howzit...

               I've been lurking this list for a long time. I have avoided posting for fear for getting hung on someones cross of chocolate bunnies with seafoam and VGs stuck to painfull parts of my body  . This Kolb crowd is pretty tough.  But the gasohol thing has got me going...



               If you're worried about water contaminated gasohol carrying moisture to the innards of your two-stroke engine and rusting the bearings... it ain't gonna happen. There are plenty of bad things about gasohol but this isn't one of them.

	The ethanol in the gasohol not only attracts water, it forms a little cage around each water molecule. To get them to separate takes adding another alcohol and a two step distillation process. Not likely to happen in one's gas tank. Water bound up with the ethanol will pass through the engine. 

	The bound up water in the fuel mix left in the crank-case will not be free to oxidize with the bare metal. However... the ethanol may reduce the ability of the oil in the mix to protect the bare metal from moisture free in the atmosphere.

	The real danger (and it is a DANGER) is phase separation. Using the Hawaiian standard a 10% ethanol/gas mix... When the water reaches .25% (one quarter of one percent or, two and a half parts per thousand) at 70 degrees F., the ethanol/water falls out of solution with the gas. It's heaver than the gas so it forms a layer at the bottom of your tank. It doesn't burn. Lower the temperature and phase separation occurs with even less water... So fuel that appears fine on the ground may suffer phase separation in the colder temperatures of altitude.

	You are much more likely to suffer an engine failure from ingesting phase separated fuel than incur the expense of replacing rusting bearings...

	If you live somewhere where all auto fuel has ethanol in it, burn 100LL and learn to live with the lead (check plugs and for carbon more frequently). If ya gotta use gasohol install a gascolator so you can catch any problems before they get to your carburetor (something I need to do myself).



Aloha Nui

Henry

FireFly five charlee-bravo

Masqqqqqqq(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:34 pm Post subject: Gasohol

In a message dated 4/18/07 2:39:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, henry_voris(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  If ya gotta use gasohol install a gascolator so you can catch any problems before they get to your carburetor 	


     question about that:   If it achieves this phase seperation and gets to the gascolator, will the water be visible there?  Or is it just something I'd empty and clean on a regular basis.

  

     Further question:  does E-85 ethanol, with it's higher ratio of alcohol, get to this phase seperation state sooner, or later, than 10% gasohol?

  

      Thanks.

  

 Richy



See what's free at AOL.com. 

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