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601XL manual flaps?

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planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: 601XL manual flaps?

I went and searched through the archives looking for data on the manual flaps installed on

  the prototype XL. I found nothing useful. Does anyone know why they were abandoned? I have a strong preferrence for the manual and had been thinking of solutions when I saw the image of the detent quadrant and handle on the web.

   

  Has anyone asked Zenith about it? What did they say (in as much detail as possible).

   

  Thank you!



  Dave Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA

  Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?

         Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?

 Check out [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-]new cars at Yahoo! Autos.[/url]  [quote][b]

MaxNr(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: 601XL Manual flaps?

Do not archive

 

 I have no info on the prototype manual flaps. However, when in doubt, plagiarize. I dug out my old Thorp T-18 drawings and have been thinking of ways to adapt these manual flap controls to the 601XL if needed. Advantages are a full 40 deg travel, fast up/down and the T-18 also uses flaps for roll trim. Does this by a threaded knob aft of the flap handle that individually adjusts the flap "up" stops. Cute. John Thorp also designed the PA-28 Cherokee and it shows.

 I looked at this when a builder posted that he could not rig more than 20 deg down. That in turn spawned msgs about retro rockets, speed brakes and drag chutes. I need at least 30 but I want more than 35 deg. I'm buying some land for a small farm strip and don't want to change projects in order to use it. It will be a while before I'm rigging flaps. Hopefully I can stick to the design. Wife likes electric's. I used to fly Bird-dogs with 60 deg electric flaps (retrofitted in the 50's/60's). Its ugly if you need to do a full flap go around. It takes forever for electric flaps to creep up from 60 deg to less than 40. Manual flaps, before my time were a better deal. I don't want to start anything, but I cant get the idea of about 7 deg of reflex flaps out of my head. (Like a Maule.) Forget I said that. 

 

 Bob From Pace,FL

 601XL/Lyc   Do not archive

**************************************

 See what's free at http://www.aol.com.  [quote][b]

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: 601XL manual flaps?

I like manual flaps also. Let's do some digging and see what we can design.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: Re: 601XL manual flaps?

 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  I like manual flaps also.  Let's do some digging and see what we can design. 	




I like the idea too. I think I'd go with some sort of screw design, like on a milling machine to move the bed, a little wheel with a turn handle on it. It'd give you the torque, control, and speed. What are we talking about, 110 lbs and 4 inches of travel? Sounds perfect. Just replace the motor with your hand. Be about as difficult and as quick as rolling up a car window.



Speaking of that, who hear prefers roll up car window? I do. There's nothing luxurious about a broken power window. Just had to fix the one in my 2000 hyundai elantra about 2 months ago. Cheapy plastic fittings broke in the cold. It was covered under warranty. I took it apart and attempted to fix it myself before I realised it was probably covered under warranty. Hyundai agreed to fix it, but wound up leaving the new part in my trunk for me to install because I didn't supply them with the 3 8mm mounting bolts. Classic. SO I wound up fixing it myself anyway. Ridiculous that they didn't have 3 smal bolts in their facility or couldn't be bothered to send someone 2 blcoks down the street to Pep Boys for an assortment pack of metric bolts.

rosestar(at)sonic.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:15 am Post subject: 601XL manual flaps?

ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Ron Lendon wrote:

> I like manual flaps also.  Let's do some digging and see what we can design.

>     

 I like the idea too. I think I'd go with some sort of screw design, like on a milling machine to move the bed, a little wheel with a turn handle on it. It'd give you the torque, control, and speed. What are we talking about, 110 lbs and 4 inches of travel? Sounds perfect. Just replace the motor with your hand. Be about as difficult and as quick as rolling up a car window.

 Speaking of that, who hear prefers roll up car window? I do. There's not luxuries about a broken power window.

 --------

 Andy Shontz

 CH601XL - Corvair

 www.mykitlog.com/ashontz

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109365#109365

Power windows?  On an airplane?  Just kidding.  I like manual flaps.  I 

fly a Cherokee with manual flaps and really like it.  I am careful to 

raise and lower the flaps in a steady and somewhat slow manner to avoid 

abrupt movement of any kind, something one of my instructors taught me 

to do.  I am installing electric flaps on my xl.  Good luck with your 

design.

Brad DeMeo

N601BD

maarten.versteeg(at)swri.
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:35 am Post subject: 601XL manual flaps?

I also like the idea of a non-electrical system for the

flaps. But why would a screw design be needed. I have

flown Cessna's and Pipers with manual flaps and they all

had a parking brake like lever. Is the force needed to

extend the flaps on a light XL so much larger than on

these heavier planes

I would think a screw design would make it impossible to

quickly retract the flaps if needed.



Regards,

	Maarten



 	  Quote: 	
		   Ron Lendon wrote:

> > I like manual flaps also.  Let's do some digging and see what we can design.

 

> Andy Shontz wrote:

> I like the idea too. I think I'd go with some sort of screw design, like on a milling machine to move the bed, a little wheel with a turn handle on it. It'd give you the torque, control, and speed. What are we talking about, 110 lbs and 4 inches of travel? Sounds perfect. Just replace the motor with your hand. Be about as difficult and as quick as rolling up a car window.

> Speaking of that, who hear prefers roll up car window? I do. There's not luxuries about a broken power window.


	


-- 

Maarten Versteeg

CH601XL

tail from kit, scratch building wings

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:27 am Post subject: Re: 601XL manual flaps?

The Piper Warrior that I currently fly has the "parking brake" style of flaps.



I like it, and would go with that method on my 601XL if I could.



Have to ponder on how to do it...



Patrick

601XL/Corvair

about 30% done...

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:20 am Post subject: Re: 601XL manual flaps?

While I have no interest in manual flaps in my XL I don't see why it would be that complex to replace the electric motor with a parking brake type system. 



The only reason I can see why anyone would do it is to not have to worry about the electric motor failing and I don't worry about it. There are plenty of folks that are flying the XL and NOT using the flaps. Not to mention all the 601s previous to the XL that didn't even have flaps.



 	  PatrickW wrote: 	
		  The Piper Warrior that I currently fly has the "parking brake" style of flaps.



I like it, and would go with that method on my 601XL if I could.



Have to ponder on how to do it...



Patrick

601XL/Corvair

about 30% done...

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: 601XL manual flaps?

Seems like even if there are only a few of us that have this "irrational" attachment to manual flaps, we ought to be able to come up with a good system. I am going to evaluate the T-18 system and see if any of it could be adapted to the XL.



PatrickW <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com> wrote:   	  Quote: 	
		    --> Zenith-List message posted by: "PatrickW" 



The Piper Warrior that I currently fly has the "parking brake" style of flaps.



I like it, and would go with that method on my 601XL if I could.



Have to ponder on how to do it...



Patrick

601XL/Corvair

about 30% done...



   

	


  Dave Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA

  Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?

         Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?

 Check out [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-]new cars at Yahoo! Autos.[/url]  [quote][b]

MaxNr(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject: 601XL manual flaps?

I like manual flaps over electrics for these reasons: Manuals weigh less, Manuals don't have to be monitored during operation to get a predetermined position. Manuals are less prone to malfunction. Manuals can be operated during an electrical failure. Manuals require lower total electrical power. Manuals give you tactile feed back if you inadvertently try to deploy them at too high an airspeed. Manuals don't require a multimeter to troubleshoot, only a flashlight. Manuals retract fast. You could salvage most of this from an old Toyota. 

 

 My wife likes the effortless operation of electrics and that is a consideration. I have all the parts in the garage. She also likes the operation of the hydraulic flaps in the Mooney Mark 21. You just put the lever down, then pump another lever three or four times to pump them down. Lift the first lever and they smoothly retract. These would be too hard to adapt though. 

 

 Bob Dingley

 Pace,FL

 Lyc/601XL

**************************************

 See what's free at http://www.aol.com.  [quote][b]

maarten.versteeg(at)swri.
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: 601XL manual flaps?

Hello Scott,



Maybe I didn't express myself too clear, but for instance

in case of a go-around I would like to reduce the flap

setting from 40 to 20 or 30 degrees. Or with a touch and go

I would actually raise the flaps immediately. With the

switch that some Cessna's have the motor will run as long

as the switch is up till the end position is reached, this

takes time and if you only want to reduce the flaps to a

certain level the pilot has to keep track of the position.



I agree with the statement that the flap lever laying on

the floor is not the easiest item to reach, having this in

a more reachable position would be safer.



Regards,

	Maarten



Scott Thatcher wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Maarten,

 

 I've been trying to think of when you would need to retract the flaps

 quickly and the only time I can think of that happening was during a spot

 landing contest when the winner of the contest slow flighted the aircraft

 just short of the "spot" and dumped the flaps, which caused him to drop like

 a rock and touch down right on the mark from two feet up. No damage to

 aircraft but a superb spot landing.  What other time would you need to

 retract the flaps quickly, short of trying to commit suicide?

 

 Scott Thatcher

 601XL with Corvair 92% complete

 

 ****Original Message**********

> >Subject: Re: 601XL manual flaps?

 <<I would think a screw design would make it impossible to

 quickly retract the flaps if needed.>>

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:02 am Post subject: 601XL manual flaps?

You could a use flap control system like the newer Cessnas have. The  

flap control is a variable resistor that you set  to any desired flap  

angle and a simple control system drives the flap motor until a  

feedback resistor matches the value of the control resistor. The  

control lever has two detents for intermediate angles between flaps  

zero and flaps full. The control circuit isn't very complicated and  

could probably be rigged up from something from the local hobby shop.

On Apr 30, 2007, at 10:05 AM, Maarten Versteeg wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <maarten.versteeg(at)swri.org>



 Hello Scott,



 Maybe I didn't express myself too clear, but for instance

 in case of a go-around I would like to reduce the flap

 setting from 40 to 20 or 30 degrees. Or with a touch and go

 I would actually raise the flaps immediately. With the

 switch that some Cessna's have the motor will run as long

 as the switch is up till the end position is reached, this

 takes time and if you only want to reduce the flaps to a

 certain level the pilot has to keep track of the position.


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: 601XL manual flaps?

There was an article in the December 1997 KitPlanes magazine that  

involved a push button electric flap controller for a homebuilt. You  

could select a number of flap settings between zero and full with the  

push of a button. If anybody has this issue, this circuit might be  

easier to implement than designing a manual flap system.



-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Matt Ronics

Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 22

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: Re: 601XL manual flaps?

Those who are considering increasing the flap range would be well served to consider the effect this will have on bending moments about the spar/wing.  The 601 wing is not a Cherokee or T-18 wing....

maarten.versteeg(at)swri.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: 601XL manual flaps?

Hello Brian,



I have seen such nice systems and agree that these make

operations of the flaps very simple. But this would defy

the idea behind the move to a simple, non-electrical system

to extend the flaps.

IN response to a deferent remark concerning the flaps, I

would not be considering increasing the flap range, the

flap effect is sufficient, it is just that it would seem

nice if the flaps could be extended without requiring an

electrical system.



Regards,

	Maarten



Bryan Martin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Time: 08:53:27 AM PST US

 From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>

 Subject: Re: Re: 601XL manual flaps?

 

 

 There was an article in the December 1997 KitPlanes magazine that  

 involved a push button electric flap controller for a homebuilt. You  

 could select a number of flap settings between zero and full with the  

 push of a button. If anybody has this issue, this circuit might be  

 easier to implement than designing a manual flap system.

n1269k

Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 8

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:42 am Post subject: Re: 601XL manual flaps?

Did anyone come up with a design for the manual flaps?

Terry

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