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William Dominguez
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118
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 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: (no subject) |
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It doesn't use the same spar, that is a common misconception. It is similar but beefed up, the same with the center spar.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
http://sites.google.com/site/billplane/
From: "afterfxllc(at)aol.com" <afterfxllc(at)aol.com>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com; zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, January 22, 2010 10:16:01 AM
Subject: (no subject)
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/PiperUnveilsPiperSportLSA_201878-1.html
This uses the same cabin parts as the 601/650. And I think the same spar. Zenith should try and stop the sale's of this plane unless they have been paid for the use of the design.
[quote]
[b]
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_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom |
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afterfxllc(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: (no subject) |
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Well it sure looks like they just copied it. The airplane is mostly a 601 and the spar is the same just with more rivets.
In a message dated 1/22/2010 1:51:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bill_dom(at)yahoo.com writes:
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flyingmike9
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 33
Location: England
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: (no subject) |
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it looks to more like the sports cruiser
made in the czw factory that the 601xl uesd to be built in
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chris Sinfield
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 270
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:47 pm Post subject: Piper cruiser |
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Hey
in thefuselagee photo it looks like a fixed metal bar across the center below the Inst panel.. I wonder how much strength that makes??
Chris
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Ron Lendon
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI
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William Dominguez
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:14 pm Post subject: (no subject) |
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They did copy the design, but they did some beefed up in the process, take a look at the attached photos.
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> Normal 0 <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
http://sites.google.com/site/billplane/From: "afterfxllc(at)aol.com" <afterfxllc(at)aol.com>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, January 22, 2010 2:44:40 PM
Subject: Re: (no subject)
Well it sure looks like they just copied it. The airplane is mostly a 601 and the spar is the same just with more rivets.
In a message dated 1/22/2010 1:51:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bill_dom(at)yahoo.com writes:
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William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom |
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rsteele(at)rjsit.com
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:20 pm Post subject: (no subject) |
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I think a many people agree that the Sport Cruiser is at least a
descendent of, if not a rip off of the 601. A much better looking
plane though.
When I went to F&S a couple of years ago looking for a plane, I sat in
the SC mockup cockpit. That bar made plane a no-go for me - no knee
room. The 601 is what I decided to build. That bar is pretty
substantial. Based on what we now know about the weaknesses of the
601, that bar doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Ron
On Jan 22, 2010, at 8:47 PM, chris Sinfield wrote:
| Quote: |
>
Hey
in thefuselagee photo it looks like a fixed metal bar across the
center below the Inst panel.. I wonder how much strength that makes??
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 83007#283007
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purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: (no subject) |
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You must have not been in one lately ,there are a great plane ,smooth quiet ,very well set upand they have adj. pedals. and a fiberglass frame around the canopy that makes it very firm, I own a 601XL and I like it , but it's no sportcruser by any streach, Joe N101HD601XL/RAM
From: Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, January 22, 2010 11:18:43 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com (rsteele(at)rjsit.com)>
I think a many people agree that the Sport Cruiser is at least a descendent of, if not a rip off of the 601. A much better looking plane though.
When I went to F&S a couple of years ago looking for a plane, I sat in the SC mockup cockpit. That bar made plane a no-go for me - no knee room. The 601 is what I decided to build. That bar is pretty substantial. Based on what we now know about the weaknesses of the 601, that bar doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Ron
On Jan 22, 2010, at 8:47 PM, chris Sinfield wrote:
[quote][b]
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purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: (no subject) |
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Piper has done the same thing that alot of Co. are doing .I think they made a perfect choice, It's tryed and trued and a great plane.. Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM
From: Ron Lendon <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, January 22, 2010 9:59:24 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" <ron.lendon(at)gmail.com (ron.lendon(at)gmail.com)>
The new Piper LSA is the Sport Crusier re-labeled
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder 
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2; -Matt Dralle, List ==========
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slymekanik
Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:18 am Post subject: Re: (no subject) |
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The Sportcruiser interior and gear are identical to the CZAW Zodiac. That 2 piece main CZAW gear is only rated for 590Lbs. per side, but lighter in weight than single piece GROVE Gear by 30 lbs. or so. With the history of CZAW and Czech Sport Aircraft (check lists) poor customer support and business practices I hope Piper knows what they are in for. On the other hand if Piper can clean up that mess maybe I'll finally have a source for maintenance info and some parts for my CZ Zodiac since CZAW/Czech Sport Aircraft shut down or stripped their websites. Zenith sure as hell don't.
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jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:30 am Post subject: (no subject) |
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On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 08:11:48PM -0800, William Dominguez wrote:
| Quote: | They did copy the design, but they did some beefed up in the process, take
a look at the attached photos.
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ARGH!
Please, people, stop attaching large pictures to emails on this list. Upload
them to the associated forum and post from there, or post to Flickr or
Picasa or one of the other photograph hosting services and post links.
The Matronics email server has a bug that causes it to time out too quickly
if the destination server does not acknowledge the email. It then re-sends
it. Over and over and over.
I wound up with something over 40 copies of this 825K email overnight,
filling up my mailbox.
Most email lists prohibit attachments for this and other reasons. I'm
surprised Matronics does not do so, ar at leasst limit their size.
This not to pick on William specifically. Lots of folks have done
it. Usually, I'm able to catch it before my mailbox explodes.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC |
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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:50 pm Post subject: (no subject) |
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In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 4:24 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "flyingmike9" <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com (mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com)>
it looks to more like the sports cruiser
made in the czw factory that the 601xl uesd to be built in
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.c Photoshare, and much much onics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/N= - MATRONICS sp; -Matt Dralle, L.com/contribution" =======
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[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: (no subject) |
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In fact, it’s not really a Piper at all. And, it’s not being sold by Piper (despite how it looks).
It is being marketed by “PiperSport Distribution, Inc.” The actual seller is Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser manufacturer. They merely re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
If one places an order for one, you must sign the order agreement which states in part:
<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is
manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft, a.s., which is the seller
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 4:24 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "flyingmike9" <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com>
it looks to more like the sports cruiser
made in the czw factory that the 601xl uesd to be built in
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.c Photoshare, and much much onics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/N= - MATRONICS sp; -Matt Dralle, L.com/contribution" =======
|
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:32 pm Post subject: (no subject) |
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SO WHAT? It's a damm good airplane Whose name would you put on it? Joe N101HD
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 4:52:03 PM
Subject: RE: Re: (no subject)
In fact, it’s not really a Piper at all. And, it’s not being sold by Piper (despite how it looks).
It is being marketed by “PiperSport Distribution, Inc.” The actual seller is Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser manufacturer. They merely re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
If one places an order for one, you must sign the order agreement which states in part:
<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is
manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft, a.s., which is the seller
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com> wrote:
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:37 am Post subject: (no subject) |
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That’s the key question, isn’t it: “SO WHAT.”
It's good that Piper is validating the LSA market – they see an opportunity to get into the market and potentially reestablish their position at the low end with no risk; however, I do wonder about the approach they're taking. There's a buried "gotcha" in there.
Here's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by the FAA with a Type Certificate, but by the manufacturer. That has some implications. The most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the configuration, maintenance, and management of the airplane is controlled by the MANUFACTURER. So, in this case, who's the manufacturer? It's not Piper. New Piper (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except at arm's length. What happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport Aircraft goes under? You've got an E-LSA, not an S-LSA (and all the implications from that!).
The point is that, unlike with standard-certed aircraft, with S-LSAs one is entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefore, clarity in who the relationship is with is important. And, in this case, it is hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:25 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
SO WHAT? It's a damm good airplane Whose name would you put on it? Joe N101HD
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 4:52:03 PM
Subject: RE: Re: (no subject)
In fact, it’s not really a Piper at all.. And, it’s not being sold by Piper (despite how it looks).
It is being marketed by “PiperSport Distribution, Inc.” The actual seller is Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser manufacturer. They merely re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
If one places an order for one, you must sign the order agreement which states in part:
<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is
manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft, a.s., which is the seller
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 4:24 PM | Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "flyingmike9" <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet..com>
it looks to more like the sports cruiser
made in the czw factory that the 601xl uesd to be built in
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
0123456789 |
[quote][b]
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n601xs(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:08 am Post subject: (no subject) |
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I did my transition training in a Sport Cruiser, it worked well for me and is a nice flying aircraft. I think they have targeted the training market which may be part of Pipers interest. And if it's registered as an S-LSA, it will always be an S-LSA unless you intentionally recertify as an experimental.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero (Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero)> wrote:
[quote]
That’s the key question, isn’t it: “SO WHAT.”
It's good that Piper is validating the LSA market – they see an opportunity to get into the market and potentially reestablish their position at the low end with no risk; however, I do wonder about the approach they're taking. There's a buried "gotcha" in there.
Here's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by the FAA with a Type Certificate, but by the manufacturer. That has some implications. The most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the configuration, maintenance, and management of the airplane is controlled by the MANUFACTURER. So, in this case, who's the manufacturer? It's not Piper. New Piper (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except at arm's length. What happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport Aircraft goes under? You've got an E-LSA, not an S-LSA (and all the implications from that!).
The point is that, unlike with standard-certed aircraft, with S-LSAs one is entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefore, clarity in who the relationship is with is important. And, in this case, it is hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net (purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net)
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:25 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
SO WHAT? It's a damm good airplane Whose name would you put on it? Joe N101HD
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero (Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero)>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 4:52:03 PM
Subject: RE: Re: (no subject)
In fact, it’s not really a Piper at all.. And, it’s not being sold by Piper (despite how it looks).
It is being marketed by “PiperSport Distribution, Inc.” The actual seller is Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser manufacturer. They merely re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
If one places an order for one, you must sign the order agreement which states in part:
<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is
manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft, a.s., which is the seller
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com (mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
0
[b]
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Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:50 am Post subject: (no subject) |
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You’re not correct. If the manufacturer goes out of business, then the current airworthiness cert is invalid. Check on EAA, call your local FSDO, or contact AFS- 610 in OK for clarification. And, if that happens when you are using the SLSA for commercial purposes (e.g. flight training) you’re hosed (consider the implications of targeting the flight training industry). That’s the first issue. The second issue is maintenance. It is NOT a part 23 airplane. Again, the manufacturer’s maintenance manual is the sole arbiter of what can be done, and how it is done. Again, no issue for E-LSA; huge issue for S-LSA. Contact any of the companies who offer Repairman Cert training for details. The third is what you can do wrt alterations to the aircraft. The original manufacturer is the ONLY one who controls that. Not an issue if they’re responsive; huge issue if they’re not.
I’m certainly not bad-mouthing anyone or anything; but, one must understand the issues – it’s the subtle ones that can come bite you in the butt.
How do I know? I am an instructor that offered SP/LSA training, and purchased an SLSA specifically for the purpose of entering the SP/LSA emerging market. I discovered these things during the due-diligence of putting the training program together.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Spainhower
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:07 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
I did my transition training in a Sport Cruiser, it worked well for me and is a nice flying aircraft. I think they have targeted the training market which may be part of Pipers interest. And if it's registered as an S-LSA, it will always be an S-LSA unless you intentionally recertify as an experimental.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero (Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero)> wrote:
That’s the key question, isn’t it: “SO WHAT.”
It's good that Piper is validating the LSA market – they see an opportunity to get into the market and potentially reestablish their position at the low end with no risk; however, I do wonder about the approach they're taking. There's a buried "gotcha" in there.
Here's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by the FAA with a Type Certificate, but by the manufacturer. That has some implications. The most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the configuration, maintenance, and management of the airplane is controlled by the MANUFACTURER. So, in this case, who's the manufacturer? It's not Piper. New Piper (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except at arm's length. What happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport Aircraft goes under? You've got an E-LSA, not an S-LSA (and all the implications from that!).
The point is that, unlike with standard-certed aircraft, with S-LSAs one is entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefore, clarity in who the relationship is with is important. And, in this case, it is hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net (purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net)
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:25 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
SO WHAT? It's a damm good airplane Whose name would you put on it? Joe N101HD
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero (Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero)>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 4:52:03 PM
Subject: RE: Re: (no subject)
In fact, it’s not really a Piper at all.. And, it’s not being sold by Piper (despite how it looks).
It is being marketed by “PiperSport Distribution, Inc.” The actual seller is Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser manufacturer. They merely re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
If one places an order for one, you must sign the order agreement which states in part:
<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is
manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft, a.s., which is the seller
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com (mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
890123
456789 | Quote: | it looks to more like the sports cruiser
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90123
[quote][b]
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bill.pagan(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:11 am Post subject: (no subject) |
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Doesn't the same risk apply to any LSA purchased then from any manufacturer? It thats the case there are a lot of aircraft owners out there with LSA's whistling past the graveyard.
Bill Pagan
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 10:35:56 AM
Subject: RE: Re: (no subject)
You’re not correct. If the manufacturer goes out of business, then the current airworthiness cert is invalid. Check on EAA, call your local FSDO, or contact AFS- 610 in OK for clarification. And, if that happens when you are using the SLSA for commercial purposes (e.g. flight training) you’re hosed (consider the implications of targeting the flight training industry). That’s the first issue. The second issue is maintenance. It is NOT a part 23 airplane. Again, the manufacturer’s maintenance manual is the sole arbiter of what can be done, and how it is done. Again, no issue for E-LSA; huge issue for S-LSA. Contact any of the companies who offer Repairman Cert training for details. The third is what you can do wrt alterations to the aircraft. The original manufacturer is the ONLY one who controls that. Not an issue if they’re responsive; huge issue if they’re not.
I’m certainly not bad-mouthing anyone or anything; but, one must understand the issues – it’s the subtle ones that can come bite you in the butt.
How do I know? I am an instructor that offered SP/LSA training, and purchased an SLSA specifically for the purpose of entering the SP/LSA emerging market. I discovered these things during the due-diligence of putting the training program together.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Spainhower
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:07 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
I did my transition training in a Sport Cruiser, it worked well for me and is a nice flying aircraft. I think they have targeted the training market which may be part of Pipers interest. And if it's registered as an S-LSA, it will always be an S-LSA unless you intentionally recertify as an experimental.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero (Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero)> wrote:
That’s the key question, isn’t it: “SO WHAT.”
It's good that Piper is validating the LSA market – they see an opportunity to get into the market and potentially reestablish their position at the low end with no risk; however, I do wonder about the approach they're taking. There's a buried "gotcha" in there.
Here's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by the FAA with a Type Certificate, but by the manufacturer. That has some implications. The most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the configuration, maintenance, and management of the airplane is controlled by the MANUFACTURER. So, in this case, who's the manufacturer? It's not Piper. New Piper (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except at arm's length. What happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport Aircraft goes under? You've got an E-LSA, not an S-LSA (and all the implications from that!).
The point is that, unlike with standard-certed aircraft, with S-LSAs one is entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefore, clarity in who the relationship is with is important. And, in this case, it is hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net (purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net)
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:25 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
SO WHAT? It's a damm good airplane Whose name would you put on it? Joe N101HD
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero (Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero)>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 4:52:03 PM
Subject: RE: Re: (no subject)
In fact, it’s not really a Piper at all.. And, it’s not being sold by Piper (despite how it looks).
It is being marketed by “PiperSport Distribution, Inc.” The actual seller is Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser manufacturer. They merely re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
If one places an order for one, you must sign the order agreement which states in part:
<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is
manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft, a.s., which is the seller
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com (mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
890123
456789 | Quote: | it looks to more like the sports cruiser
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90123
4
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:17 am Post subject: (no subject) |
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There might be some further implications. The Bellanca Champ used a two cylinder Franklin engine that is no longer in production. Had this been a SLSA C and if the manufacturer refused to extend TBO C since engine parts are not available C the owner would be out of luck.
At that point the owner would need to go to the FAA C and see if he could apply for a waiver.
From: Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: (no subject)
Date: Tue C 26 Jan 2010 10:35:56 -0500
.ExternalClass .ecxshape {;} .ExternalClass p.ecxMsoNormal C .ExternalClass li.ecxMsoNormal C .ExternalClass div.ecxMsoNormal {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman' C'serif';} .ExternalClass a:link C .ExternalClass span.ecxMsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass a:visited C .ExternalClass span.ecxMsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman' C'serif';} .ExternalClass pre {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Courier New';} .ExternalClass span.ecxHTMLPreformattedChar {font-family:Consolas;} .ExternalClass span.ecxEmailStyle20 {font-family:'Calibri' C'sans-serif';color:#1F497D;} .ExternalClass .ecxMsoChpDefault {;} (at)page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in;} .ExternalClass div.ecxSection1 {page:Section1;}
You’re not correct. If the manufacturer goes out of business C then the current airworthiness cert is invalid. Check on EAA C call your local FSDO C or contact AFS- 610 in OK for clarification. And C if that happens when you are using the SLSA for commercial purposes (e.g. flight training) you’re hosed (consider the implications of targeting the flight training industry). That’s the first issue. The second issue is maintenance. It is NOT a part 23 airplane. Again C the manufacturer’s maintenance manual is the sole arbiter of what can be done C and how it is done. Again C no issue for E-LSA; huge issue for S-LSA. Contact any of the companies who offer Repairman Cert training for details. The third is what you can do wrt alterations to the aircraft. The original manufacturer is the ONLY one who controls that. Not an issue if they’re responsive; huge issue if they’re not.
I’m certainly not bad-mouthing anyone or anything; but C one must understand the issues – it’s the subtle ones that can come bite you in the butt.
How do I know? I am an instructor that offered SP/LSA training C and purchased an SLSA specifically for the purpose of entering the SP/LSA emerging market. I discovered these things during the due-diligence of putting the training program together.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Spainhower
Sent: Tuesday C January 26 C 2010 9:07 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
I did my transition training in a Sport Cruiser C it worked well for me and is a nice flying aircraft. I think they have targeted the training market which may be part of Pipers interest. And if it's registered as an S-LSA C it will always be an S-LSA unless you intentionally recertify as an experimental.
On Tue C Jan 26 C 2010 at 6:35 AM C Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero (Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero)> wrote:
That’s the key question C isn’t it: “SO WHAT.”
It's good that Piper is validating the LSA market – they see an opportunity to get into the market and potentially reestablish their position at the low end with no risk; however C I do wonder about the approach they're taking. There's a buried "gotcha" in there.
Here's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by the FAA with a Type Certificate C but by the manufacturer. That has some implications. The most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the configuration C maintenance C and management of the airplane is controlled by the MANUFACTURER. So C in this case C who's the manufacturer? It's not Piper. New Piper (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except at arm's length. What happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport Aircraft goes under? You've got an E-LSA C not an S-LSA (and all the implications from that!).
The point is that C unlike with standard-certed aircraft C with S-LSAs one is entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefore C clarity in who the relationship is with is important. And C in this case C it is hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net (purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net)
Sent: Monday C January 25 C 2010 6:25 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: (no subject)
SO WHAT? It's a damm good airplane Whose name would you put on it? Joe N101HD
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero (Doug.Norman(at)sportaviation.aero)>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Mon C January 25 C 2010 4:52:03 PM
Subject: RE: Re: (no subject)
In fact C it’s not really a Piper at all.. And C it’s not being sold by Piper (despite how it looks).
It is being marketed by “PiperSport Distribution C Inc.” The actual seller is Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser manufacturer. They merely re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
If one places an order for one C you must sign the order agreement which states in part:
<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution C Inc. The aircraft is
manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft C a.s. C which is the seller
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Monday C January 25 C 2010 3:48 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri C 1/22/10 C flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com (mikelloyd9(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:
890123
456789 | Quote: | it looks to more like the sports cruiser
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3 | Quote: | it looks to more like the sports cruiser
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4 | Quote: | it looks to more like the sports cruiser
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90123
4 Hotmail: Free C trusted and rich target='_new'>Get it now. [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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