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Have a better flap handle for CH701?

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lgold(at)quantum-associat
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject: Have a better flap handle for CH701?

I am  working on the forward cockpit of my CH701 kit and would like to find a better  flap handle arrangement. Several years ago the Zenair news described an  easier-to-use handle extension that had better mechanical advantage.  The diagram for this handle from Z-news is attached. I have seen a  newer versions that look better. If you have good pictures,  construction drawings, or specs for similar handles,  or builds them for others, please let me know.

  

 Rgds,

Les

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txpilot

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 87
Location: Houston, TX

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Have a better flap handle for CH701?

Les,



I'm at the same juncture as you.  After obtaining advice from my tech counselor and others on this forum, I've decided to go with an electric flap system.  I've purchased Bob Nuckoll's 'Aeroelectic Connection' for assistance in wiring.  Also, someone on this forum suggested the following site for linear actuators:



http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2007042010494297&catname=electric&keyword=EALD



Although installing an electric flap system will obviously cause a weight penalty, I think it will be a superior system to any manual flap system.  That's my two cents.  Good luck.



Blue side up,



Dan Ginty

tommylutz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: Have a better flap handle for CH701?

What is the advantage of electric flaps over manual?  I can imagine the flaps might be slightly more difficult to deploy at higher speeds without electric, but other than that, what's the deal?  I kind of like the idea that you don't need electricity for manual flaps, especially since I know what it's like to have a complete electrical system failure at night. 



Tom



On 4/20/07, txpilot <djg7(at)houston.rr.com (djg7(at)houston.rr.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "txpilot" <djg7(at)houston.rr.com (djg7(at)houston.rr.com)>



Les,



I'm at the same juncture as you.  After obtaining advice from my tech counselor and others on this forum, I've decided to go with an electric flap system.  I've purchased Bob Nuckoll's 'Aeroelectic Connection' for assistance in wiring.  Also, someone on this forum suggested the following site for linear actuators: 



[url=http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID 07042010494297&catname=electric&keyword=EALD]http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID 07042010494297&catname=electric&keyword=EALD[/url]



 Although installing an electric flap system will obviously cause a weight penalty, I think it will be a superior system to any manual flap system.  That's my two cents.  Good luck.



Blue side up,



Dan Ginty 



[b]

txpilot

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 87
Location: Houston, TX

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Have a better flap handle for CH701?

 	  tommylutz(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  What is the advantage of electric flaps over manual?  I can imagine the flaps might be slightly more difficult to deploy at higher speeds without electric, but other than that, what's the deal?  I kind of like the idea that you don't need electricity for manual flaps, especially since I know what it's like to have a complete electrical system failure at night. 

[b] 	




Simply put, I don't care for the location of the flap control handle.  It seems to be in an awkward place.  A simple flap control switch located on the panel makes a bit more sense to me.  Regarding an electrical failure, I don't think losing your flaps on this airplane is a major issue since it can easily land anywhere flaps up.



Dan

lgold(at)quantum-associat
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: Have a better flap handle for CH701?

Tom,

 I agree that electric flaps could  be an unnecessary complication and adds weight. Keep it simple and less can  go wrong. However, I have been told that lowering the flaps can be difficult  without some addition mechanical advantage when you are near the top of the  allowed speed for lowering them.

 Rgds,

Les



 [quote]         From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom    Lutz

Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 12:38 PM

To:    zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Have a    better flap handle for CH701?

   

What is the advantage of electric flaps over manual?  I can    imagine the flaps might be slightly more difficult to deploy at higher speeds    without electric, but other than that, what's the deal?  I kind of like    the idea that you don't need electricity for manual flaps, especially since I    know what it's like to have a complete electrical system failure at night.    



Tom



   On 4/20/07, txpilot    <djg7(at)houston.rr.com (djg7(at)houston.rr.com)>    wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		  -->      Zenith-List message posted by: "txpilot" <djg7(at)houston.rr.com (djg7(at)houston.rr.com)>



Les,



I'm      at the same juncture as you.  After obtaining advice from my tech      counselor and others on this forum, I've decided to go with an electric flap      system.  I've purchased Bob Nuckoll's 'Aeroelectic Connection' for      assistance in wiring.  Also, someone on this forum suggested the      following site for linear actuators: 



http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2007042010494297&catname=electric&keyword=EALD



Although      installing an electric flap system will obviously cause a weight penalty, I      think it will be a superior system to any manual flap      system.  That's my two cents.  Good luck.



Blue      side up,



Dan Ginty 







href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	
[b]

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:48 am Post subject: Have a better flap handle for CH701?

On the same note, Why not just have fixed trailing edges inboard? The plane is reputed to have ample rudder and slip effectively. Are flaps somehow needed to comply with the LSA requirement?



Is there a big advantage for soft field take-offs?



Does anyone have any idea if the flaps are more or less useful in the trike vs. the conventional gear plane?



Is there any downside beyond pilots preference to the conventional gear? When I spoke with Zenith, they said that the only reason that the conventional gear plane was slightly heavier than the trike was the double structure was present in the demonstrator.



Thanks!



txpilot <djg7(at)houston.rr.com> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  ... I don't think losing your flaps on this airplane is a major issue since it can easily land anywhere flaps  up.



Dan



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=108239#108239

	




  Dave Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA

  Zodiac 601XL/Corvair?

         Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?

 Check out [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-]new cars at Yahoo! Autos.[/url]  [quote][b]

taffy0687(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:32 am Post subject: Have a better flap handle for CH701?

I think the concern, with an electric flap failure, on the 701 should be:  not beaing able to retract the flaps for a "go-around".   I am putting electric flaps on my 601.  I had manual flaps on my 701.  I don't think one is "playing" with the flaps that much on the 701, you're to busy landing the airplane.

  ---- do not archive



txpilot <djg7(at)houston.rr.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "txpilot" 

tommylutz(at)gmail.com wrote:

[quote] What is the advantage of electric flaps over manual? I can imagine the flaps might be slightly more difficult to deploy at higher speeds without electric, but other than that, what's the deal? I kind of like the idea that you don't need electricity for manual flaps, especially since I know what it's like to have a complete          Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?

 Check out [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-]new cars at Yahoo! Autos.[/url]   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: Have a better flap handle for CH701?

Hi David,



 Some quick opinions on your flap questions:



 LSA do not require flaps.  Indeed you can't use them to meet the stall speed requirement since it is specified as VSo.



 Flaps increase both lift and drag.  That is a big help when taking off or landing since it allows a lower stall speed.  At the critical takeoff and landing speeds, the drag doesn't amount to much.  For takeoff, a small amount of flaps is always a help, but large flap settings tend to cause problems for lightly powered planes since they have problems accelerating to higher airspeeds with the drag imposed.



 I don't think it makes any difference with regard to flaps if you have a tail or nose dragger.  The big issue with tail draggers is yaw stability on the ground and flaps might make the natural instability even worse in a gusting cross wind.



 The big downside to conventional gear is the natural instability on the ground.  They want to go backwards, and keeping them going forward can take a great deal of skill and a little luck.  Tail draggers have a huge number of accidents compared to tricycle gear planes, but the extra accidents are rarely fatal to the occupants.  That means the insurance rates for tail draggers are higher than tricycle gear planes, but not completely out of reach for those who insist on using this style of landing gear.



 Just my opinions . . . 



 Paul

 XL fuselage



 

 At 02:47 AM 4/21/2007, you wrote:

 [quote]On the same note, Why not just have fixed trailing edges inboard? The plane is reputed to have ample rudder and slip effectively. Are flaps somehow needed to comply with the LSA requirement?



 Is there a big advantage for soft field take-offs?



 Does anyone have any idea if the flaps are more or less useful in the trike vs. the conventional gear plane?



 Is there any downside beyond pilots preference to the conventional gear? When I spoke with Zenith, they said that the only reason that the conventional gear plane was slightly heavier than the trike was the double structure was present in the demonstrator.



 Thanks!

 [b]

tommylutz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:21 am Post subject: Have a better flap handle for CH701?

The Blanik two-seat glider that I fly once in a while has manual flaps -- you are right.  It's easier to deploy the flaps if I yank back on the stick, then nose over a bit to take some load off the wings.



 On 4/21/07, Les Goldner <lgold(at)quantum-associates.com (lgold(at)quantum-associates.com)> wrote:[quote]      Tom,

 I agree that electric flaps could  be an unnecessary complication and adds weight. Keep it simple and less can  go wrong. However, I have been told that lowering the flaps can be difficult  without some addition mechanical advantage when you are near the top of the  allowed speed for lowering them.

 Rgds,

Les



  	  Quote: 	
		           From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)    [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Tom    Lutz

Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 12:38 PM

To:    zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re: Have a    better flap handle for CH701?

   

What is the advantage of electric flaps over manual?  I can    imagine the flaps might be slightly more difficult to deploy at higher speeds    without electric, but other than that, what's the deal?  I kind of like    the idea that you don't need electricity for manual flaps, especially since I    know what it's like to have a complete electrical system failure at night.    



Tom



   On 4/20/07, txpilot    <djg7(at)houston.rr.com (djg7(at)houston.rr.com)>    wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		  -->      Zenith-List message posted by: "txpilot" <djg7(at)houston.rr.com (djg7(at)houston.rr.com)>



Les,



 I'm      at the same juncture as you.  After obtaining advice from my tech      counselor and others on this forum, I've decided to go with an electric flap      system.  I've purchased Bob Nuckoll's 'Aeroelectic Connection' for      assistance in wiring.  Also, someone on this forum suggested the      following site for linear actuators: 



[url=http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID 07042010494297&catname=electric&keyword=EALD] http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID 07042010494297&catname=electric&keyword=EALD[/url]



Although      installing an electric flap system will obviously cause a weight penalty, I      think it will be a superior system to any manual flap      system.  That's my two cents.  Good luck.



Blue      side up,



Dan Ginty 







href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">

http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">

http://forums.matronics.com



	
	
   [quote][b]  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com  [quote][b]

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: Have a better flap handle for CH701?

Thanks Paul;



I am really struggling with the decision on the gear arrangement as well as trying to make up my mind on flaps.



do not archive



Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net> wrote:[quote]   Hi David,



 Some quick opinions on your flap questions:



 LSA do not require flaps.  Indeed you can't use them to meet the stall speed requirement since it is specified as VSo.



 Flaps increase both lift and drag.  That is a big help when taking off or landing since it allows a lower stall speed.  At the critical takeoff and landing speeds, the drag doesn't amount to much.  For takeoff, a small amount of flaps is always a help, but large flap settings tend to cause problems for lightly powered planes since they have problems accelerating to higher airspeeds with the drag imposed.



 I don't  think it makes any difference with regard to flaps if you have a tail or nose dragger.  The big issue with tail draggers is yaw stability on the ground and flaps might make the natural instability even worse in a gusting cross wind.



 The big downside to conventional gear is the natural instability on the ground.  They want to go backwards, and keeping them going forward can take a great deal of skill and a little luck.  Tail draggers have a huge number of accidents compared to tricycle gear planes, but the extra accidents are rarely fatal to the occupants.  That means the insurance rates for tail draggers are higher than tricycle gear planes, but not completely out of reach for those who insist on using this style of landing gear.



 Just my opinions . . . 



 Paul

 XL fuselage



 

 At 02:47 AM 4/21/2007, you wrote:

 [quote]On the same note, Why not just have fixed trailing edges        Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?

 Check out [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-]new cars at Yahoo! Autos.[/url]  [quote][b]

nyterminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: Have a better flap handle for CH701?

Tom,

   I installed the electric flap actuator on my 701 and don´t regret it. The weight is negligable and the stock Zenith manual flaps are awkard at best. All that responded have valid points. I would hands down install them again.

   Bob Spudis

   N701ZX/CH701/912S7106hrs

   

    

  

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