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broken leg

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josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: broken leg

Hi Folks, 

We (Wife and i) were moving the plane back on the trailer, when the port outrigger leg just snapped in two. This kit has not moved very much yet. There was no visible damage to the leg. The painter painted those legs too, with the standard paint the factory has. Could that have caused some change all through the material, or is this just a bad batch? Have these massive nylon bars broken before just by hand-moving? Good days (yesterday) and bad days (today) come and go  



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: broken leg

Hi! Jos.

Just out of interest what was the ambient temperature when it broke?

Regards

Bob Harrison.



Robt.C.Harrison

--

Paul Boulet

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Malibu, California

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: broken leg

Hi Jos;

 You're lucky they brok on the trailer instead of while landing which mine did (causing about $3,000 of damage in the process).  Mine were about 4 years old by the time I was flight testing and the feeling was they simply don't have a very long shelf life.  Others may disagree but I'd replace them every three years if it was my bird (I've since converted to tri gear).

  

 Paul Boulet, N914PB, Malibu, California.  25 hours of flight testing complete and 15 more to go before I add paint and upholstery.... so far LOVING the way it flies (thank you Phoenix Composites!)

 ---

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: broken leg

Hi Bob, 

It was about 4 Celcius. Nice weather, sunny. I don't think nylon, (if it is nylon), is suspectible to cold temperatures. It really baffles me, i did expect to break about everything, but not this one 



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen



ps Hope you are mounting your 914 now?

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: broken leg

Hi Paul,



Yes, it's good it happened now, although my wife, who catched the wingtip on her leg is not so happy. Her leg is not broken, "only" hurts.

4 years? My build started 3 and a half year ago, could be a batch problem. Thanks for the input,



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: broken leg

Jos, not possible



*. The painter painted those legs too, with the standard paint the factory has. Could that have caused some change all through the material, or is this just a bad batch? Have these massive nylon bars broken before just by hand-moving? 

*



Must be a bad batch. Nothing to do with painting.

I have painted legs also. Wish no other damages!



The Best days are near of You.



Raimo



Good days (yesterday) and bad days (today) come and go  

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Regards,

 

 Jos Okhuijsen

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

Paul Boulet

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Malibu, California

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: broken leg

My kit was delivered 7 years ago so I doubt it's a batch problem

 Paul

 ---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: broken leg

Jos

I wonder if the nylon (I think it's 6-6 but could be wrong) could have 

recrystallised at very low temperatures? Hard to imagine it should. 

Factory did a lot of research in the early days and did break some but 

under considerable load. I saw legs bent level with the ground on our 

aircraft when Pete Clarke was agressively taxying it prior to first flight.

Graham



josok wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Folks, 

 We (Wife and i) were moving the plane back on the trailer, when the port outrigger leg just snapped in two. This kit has not moved very much yet. There was no visible damage to the leg. The painter painted those legs too, with the standard paint the factory has. Could that have caused some change all through the material, or is this just a bad batch? Have these massive nylon bars broken before just by hand-moving? Good days (yesterday) and bad days (today) come and go  

 

 Regards,

 

 Jos Okhuijsen

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


	


-- 

Graham Singleton



Tel: +441629820187

Mob: +447739582005

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: broken leg

Jos,



These legs are made from Nylon 66.  My experience is that they are very

flexible (even in winter) but I change mine every year when I do my annual.

I doubt if they need changing that often but the material is inexpensive to

buy in the US so I just do it.



Paul

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: broken leg

Hi! Jos

Hope your "managers" leg is now mending OK ......and of course the

aircraft one ?

I paid for the 914 today at Kirbymoorside, and hope to collect it next

Wednesday although still have to do some preparation on the fuselage .

Regards

Bob.



Robt.C.Harrison

M.Grass(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject: broken leg

All,



I made a little while an interesting observation with tie raps (not sure 

about spelling) which I believe are made from similar nylon material as your 

outrigger legs. I have a lot of experience with the cable tie raps based on 

my previous job where I used a lot of them. You can rely totally abuse them 

and they stay flexible.



Last year when I bonded the top on, I realized that some of the tie raps got 

really brittle like hard plastic. I wondered why. The only thing I could 

come up with is that they got in contact with acetone.



Now I made a test. I wiped a couple of tie raps with acetone and left them 

for a day. After this 1 day waiting time I just bended the tie rap and they 

broke just like hard plastic. Totally weird. The only thing I can come up 

with is that the Acetone changed the outer surface properties of the tie rap 

and made it very brittle.



So with this observation: Could it be that you experienced the same thing 

here? Did you or the painter cleaned the legs with acetone? Or did the paint 

changed some of the properties of the nylon?



Again, I do not know what exactly the Acetone did to my tie raps but the 

more educated chemist might be able to chip in here with an explanation.



Blue skies up



Michael Grass

Europa XS Tri Gear

Detroit, Mi

---

n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: broken leg

Michael,

Great input! You might have something there...



Ralph

MG

Reno, NV



Michael Grass wrote:

[quote] 



 All,



 I made a little while an interesting observation with tie raps (not 

 sure about spelling) which I believe are made from similar nylon 

 material as your outrigger legs. I have a lot of experience with the 

 cable tie raps based on my previous job where I used a lot of them. 

 You can rely totally abuse them and they stay flexible.



 Last year when I bonded the top on, I realized that some of the tie 

 raps got really brittle like hard plastic. I wondered why. The only 

 thing I could come up with is that they got in contact with acetone.



 Now I made a test. I wiped a couple of tie raps with acetone and left 

 them for a day. After this 1 day waiting time I just bended the tie 

 rap and they broke just like hard plastic. Totally weird. The only 

 thing I can come up with is that the Acetone changed the outer surface 

 properties of the tie rap and made it very brittle.



 So with this observation: Could it be that you experienced the same 

 thing here? Did you or the painter cleaned the legs with acetone? Or 

 did the paint changed some of the properties of the nylon?



 Again, I do not know what exactly the Acetone did to my tie raps but 

 the more educated chemist might be able to chip in here with an 

 explanation.



 Blue skies up



 Michael Grass

 Europa XS Tri Gear

 Detroit, Mi

 ---

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:38 am Post subject: broken leg

Hi Michael, 



It kind of adds up, your explanation about the aceton and nylon ties, and this accident. I wonder now, how close the used thinner is to aceton chemically. Are there any chemical wizards in the audience?

The next edition will not have painted legs just in case!



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:10 am Post subject: Broken Leg

Jos,

Goodness, you frightened me.  I was afraid that you had broken one of your legs!  

Glad to hear it was "only" an outrigger leg.

I can not imagine one of those Nylon bars breaking.  Nylon is extremely strong and resistant to breakage.  There must have been a defect in that length of bar. I have a Remington Nylon 66 rifle that was manufactured back in the mid-'60's and after uncounted rounds of .22 LR and cleaning solutions the Nylon stock and receiver are just about like new with no apparent loss of strength.

To go along with Michale Grass's comments...  I looked up the properties of Nylon and the only substances which seem to affect Nylon are Dilute Acids and Alcohol.  I guess Acetone should be added to that list.  It is possible that you or, most probably, the painter may have exposed the Nylon to one of those?

I'd say you need to contact E'04 for a new pair of legs.  I'd replace both legs, just in case both legs were subjected to the same situation that caused the breakage.  You'd hate to find out that both legs had been affected on a gusty, cross-wind landing.

Good building and great flying,

Bob Borger

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S

http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL

(85%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done.  Baggage bay in.  Flaps & Main Gear complete.  Mod 72 complete.  Working in - 24 Instrument Panel, 25 Electrical, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing.  Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05.  Seat arrived from Oregon Aero.  E04 interior kit has arrived and is being installed.  Installing the ROTAX 914, again.

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208

Home:  940-497-2123

Cel:  817-992-1117



 [quote][b]

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:55 am Post subject: broken leg

My understanding of nylon is that it requires to retain its inherent 

'moisture' to remain flexible.

If this moisture is lost, it becomes brittle.



Duncan McF.

---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:14 am Post subject: broken leg

I have read somewhere that nylon will absorb up to 7% of its own weight 

in water. Acetone may displace the water by osmosis (ie entice the water 

to come out!?!)which might cause embrittlement.

Just thinking sideways a bit.

Graham



Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>

 

 My understanding of nylon is that it requires to retain its inherent 

 'moisture' to remain flexible.

 If this moisture is lost, it becomes brittle.

 

 Duncan McF.05

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