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Poly Fuel Tanks (Temps not Structure)

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dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:28 am Post subject: Poly Fuel Tanks (Temps not Structure)

I posted this concern a while  back and received a couple responses.  One dealt with the little red jerry  cans and asked if I had ever had a problem with them.  My answer was,  "NO".  The other mentioned the Poly Technology had been around for years  and "what was the big problem".  Went on to mention Poly gas containers in  a boat.    Both of the above  situations most likely never see operating temps of 140 degrees or  more.

     I spent a lot of time trying to  research Poly on the net.  It is all over the place about 140 degrees being  the "max" operating temps.  Even the difference between Poly and Cross  linked Poly is small.  I contacted a couple "Plastics" companies as well as  the company selling the Poly fuel tanks.  I voiced my concern to  them about the high internal temps of a wing (can exceed 200 degrees  depending on paint color).  US Plastics came back with this  comment:

   

 I asked:

 Can the subject material gasoline  tanks be use where the tanks may be subjected to temps above 150 degrees and  possible 200 degrees.  I've read where cross linked polyethylene is only  good for 140 degree usage.  What would temps above 140 degree do to the  tank material?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =  "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

   

 

They Said: 

This can break  down your plastic tank. It is only good up to the 140 degree. Once the plastic  starts to break down, it will turn colors, become brittle, and eventually begin  leaking.



Thanks



Ashley L.  Bolen

International Sales and Service

Technical Advisor &  Sales

1(419)228-2242 or 1(800)537-9724 phone

1(419)228-5034 or  1(800)-854-5498 fax

www.usplastic.com or www.usphome.com  

I asked the Poly Tank company the same similar  question and this is what they said: I said:

  Sir,

     I'm with a group of Kitfox  owners that have been discussing your tanks.  One issue I brought up is the  internal wing temps that the tanks can see.  I once did some testing  with the Poly Fiber Company on this subject.  My 2 inch finish tapes shrunk  on the wing tops.  Poly Fiber sent me a digital thermometer and I  tested the internal and external temps of every different color wing at the  airport.  My temps (Gray Airplane) ran over 200 degrees internal on a 90  degree day.

  

  

 They said:

  Certainly you have got a valid point but I will  tell you that the operating temps are stated from US plastics as 140 F and  softening point is 240F . 

 [url=]http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=28146&product%5Fid=12708[/url]

  

 Brittleness temp. is -94°F, softening point is 230°F and max. working temp.  is 140°F.

  

 Our tanks are covered on the top with 1/8" plywood  which not only strengthens the install but that along with the fabric and the  paint provide UV protection and a heat Shield.  

  

 Thanks for the input. 

  

 ME Again:

     This is just meant to raise the question about operating  temps for Poly in the application for wing tanks.  Just think about it and  maybe check your internal wing temps before going in this direction.  Poly  is only good for a maximum of 140 degrees.

  

 Don Smythe

  

  



    [quote][b]

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rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:00 am Post subject: Poly Fuel Tanks (Temps not Structure)

Don,  

As long as there is gas in the tank, the temperature is not going to get over the boiling point of the gas.   If you look at the vents of the tanks when your plane is setting out in the sun you can clearly see gas fumes blowing out the vents.  As the gas evaporates (probably well below the boiling point) it cools the tank.  The boiling point of gas varies depending upon the season (mogas).   It is higher in the summer and lower in the winter.  Without researching it, I would place the boiling range at 100 – 150 F.  Cars have their gas pumps inside the gas tank for cooling.  

   

I have a black ATV that is outside in the sun a lot and the poly tank is fine after 10 years.  I also have polly tanks on lawn mowers and tractors and have had problems only with one tractor – replaced the outlet with a bulkhead fitting and the tank is still in use.  

   

I think you raise a valid concern, but at this point, I would prefer a poly tank to the fiberglass tanks I presently have.  

     

Randy Daughenbaugh,  N10NH  

Black Hills of South Dakota, - Near Mount Rushmore  

Home Strip, Grass   Room in Hangar for visitors  

Series 5/7 (7 Firewall Forward) 912S, Warp Drive Taper Tip  

Gross Weight 1320 lbs, Flying since November 2004  

  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Smythe

 Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 6:28 AM

 To: Kitfox List

 Subject: Poly Fuel Tanks (Temps not Structure)  

  

     

    I posted this concern a while back and received a couple responses.  One dealt with the little red jerry cans and asked if I had ever had a problem with them.  My answer was, "NO".  The other mentioned the Poly Technology had been around for years and "what was the big problem".  Went on to mention Poly gas containers in a boat.    Both of the above situations most likely never see operating temps of 140 degrees or more.  

    

    I spent a lot of time trying to research Poly on the net.  It is all over the place about 140 degrees being the "max" operating temps.  Even the difference between Poly and Cross linked Poly is small.  I contacted a couple "Plastics" companies as well as the company selling the Poly fuel tanks.  I voiced my concern to them about the high internal temps of a wing (can exceed 200 degrees depending on paint color).  US Plastics came back with this comment:  

      

   

    

I asked:  

    

Can the subject material gasoline tanks be use where the tanks may be subjected to temps above 150 degrees and possible 200 degrees.  I've read where cross linked polyethylene is only good for 140 degree usage.  What would temps above 140 degree do to the tank material?  

      

They Said:  

This can break down your plastic tank. It is only good up to the 140 degree. Once the plastic starts to break down, it will turn colors, become brittle, and eventually begin leaking.

 

 Thanks

 

 Ashley L. Bolen

 International Sales and Service

 Technical Advisor & Sales

 1(419)228-2242 or 1(800)537-9724 phone

 1(419)228-5034 or 1(800)-854-5498 fax

 www.usplastic.com or www.usphome.com   

I asked the Poly Tank company the same similar question and this is what they said:  

     

I said:  

      

Sir,  

    

   I'm with a group of Kitfox owners that have been discussing your tanks.  One issue I brought up is the internal wing temps that the tanks can see.  I once did some testing with the Poly Fiber Company on this subject.  My 2 inch finish tapes shrunk on the wing tops.  Poly Fiber sent me a digital thermometer and I tested the internal and external temps of every different color wing at the airport.  My temps (Gray Airplane) ran over 200 degrees internal on a 90 degree day.  

    

   

    

   

    

They said:  

      

Certainly you have got a valid point but I will tell you that the operating temps are stated from US plastics as 140 F and softening point is 240F .   

    

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=28146&product%5Fid=12708  

    

   

    

Brittleness temp. is -94°F, softening point is 230°F and max. working temp. is 140°F.  

    

   

    

Our tanks are covered on the top with 1/8" plywood which not only strengthens the install but that along with the fabric and the paint provide UV protection and a heat Shield.    

    

   

    

Thanks for the input.   

    

   

    

ME Again:  

    

    This is just meant to raise the question about operating temps for Poly in the application for wing tanks.  Just think about it and maybe check your internal wing temps before going in this direction.  Poly is only good for a maximum of 140 degrees.  

    

   

    

Don Smythe  

    

   

    

   

  

  

  

  

  

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       [quote][b]

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_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: Poly Fuel Tanks (Temps not Structure)

Don,



I wonder what race car drivers use.  I have a breather

tank under the cowl of my S-5 from Summit Racing. 

Standard tank used to keep the race tracks clean and I

bet they get hot under the hood too.  I think the

breather cost me $30 and I got it in matching red.  Ha

ha  So far it looks great, even taking in hot oil.



I am in Panama and can´t call Summit, or any of the

other suppliers to check.  If someone back in the U.S.

can, maybe we can learn something new.  If not, I will

be checking my tank often.



Kurt Schrader

S-5/NSI turbo CAP 140 prop

Panama and Florida



 	  Quote: 	
		   Behalf Of Don Smythe

 

     I spent a lot of time trying to research Poly on

 the net.  It is all

 over the place about 140 degrees being the "max"

 operating temps.


	


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KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: Poly Fuel Tanks (Temps not Structure)

Kurt,

  

 Are you not home based in Ky anymore?   

 John P.  Marzluf (John Z.)

Columbus, Ohio

Series V Outback (Out Back In The  Garage)

20% Complete, Not Currently Building

Do Not  Archive





See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

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kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Poly Fuel Tanks (Temps not Structure)

just paint your plane white.

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rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: Poly Fuel Tanks (Temps not Structure)

Kurt,

Do you have a measure of the temp in the cowl?  I had an extra temp sensor

on my EIS and located it high between the engine and the firewall.  I see

temps about 20 F higher than outside temps.  The temp goes up to about 30 F

higher than outside temps for a few minutes after shut down, but that is

about it.



Randy Daughenbaugh,  N10NH

Black Hills of South Dakota, - Near Mount Rushmore

Home Strip, Grass   Room in Hangar for visitors

Series 5/7 (7 Firewall Forward) 912S, Warp Drive Taper Tip

Gross Weight 1320 lbs, Flying since November 2004



--

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_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: Poly Fuel Tanks (Temps not Structure)

Right Randy,



I measured the temps in several areas under the cowl. 

Wanted to ensure no vapor lock for one thing.  Also

wanted to keep the cowl temp below 160 where the

fiberglass gets weak.



As you found, the temps go up about 20 degrees.  On

mine though my turbo really heats the area just above

it after shutdown.  I put insolation on the cowl near

the hot parts like that and shut down faced into the

wind.  Then I open my 2 inspections doors and let the

air blow thru.  The turbo is above 400 degrees after

shutdown and takes a good bit to cool.  Most of the

rest is below 200 quickly and that keeps the cowl

cool.



Also I installed 2 movable side exit vents on my cowl

because it was pressurizing and needed more relief. 

This lowers the temps while operating quite well.



My strobe power boxes are in my wingtips and the tips

are painted dark maroon.  For this reason I put

cooling holes under the power supplies to allow air to

circulate thru the power box fins and out the trailing

edge.  The rest of my wing is white.



I keep the temp probe on the intake to watch for icing

temps normally, but it is available for testing as

needed.



As to Steve W´s wing tanks, if you read the

instructions that were posted, he appears to put them

in the old tank with only the top removed.  Then he

reinforces the tank and encloses the top.  It looks

like a good structure and shouldn´t overheat the tanks

if you keep the wing color light.  Just my opinion.



Kurt Schrader

S-5/NSI turbo w/CAP 140 prop

Down for annual

Florida and Panama



--- Randy  Daughenbaugh <rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Kurt,

 Do you have a measure of the temp in the cowl?  I

 had an extra temp sensor

 on my EIS and located it high between the engine and

 the firewall.  I see

 temps about 20 F higher than outside temps.  The

 temp goes up to about 30 F

 higher than outside temps for a few minutes after

 shut down, but that is

 about it.

 

 Randy Daughenbaugh,  N10NH


	


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