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582 EGT's

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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: 582 EGT's

Hey List.

   

  My 582 is running great. Only complaint is that at cruise, EGTs for fwd cylinder run consistently about 100 degrees cooler than aft cylinder, though both are in the green. Would it be ok to equallize EGTs by leaning only the fwd carb a tad?  Either by switching to a leaner mid range jet needle or just raising the clip a notch?

   

  Seems I recall someone saying not to "unbalance" carbs in this way. Or maybe I imagined it?

Marco Menezes

Model 2 582 N99KX

           Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?

 Check out [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-]new cars at Yahoo! Autos.[/url]  [quote][b]

Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: 582 EGT's

try swapping the egt senders just switch them at the  gage  , to see if the gage is right   it can be sent to westach for re  calibrating.  an air bubble in the head will give  a high egt   reading    malcolm michigan kit foxer 



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:44 am Post subject: 582 EGT's

Marco, I recall this topic from many years ago that  went on for a long time.  This was/is a common phenomenon on 582s and some  members felt it was because, even though the engine is liquid cooled, the front  cylinder receives more air cooling and will tend to run slightly leaner,  especially in cruise.  Merle Williams, a previous Lister and a well  respected and knowledgeable Kitfoxer, used a slightly leaner needle and main jet  in the rear carb to balance them.  I'm not sure it's really an issue worth  pursuing, because "chasing perfection" in a two stroke can be an exercise  in futility so I lived with the 50 degrees or so difference and didn't  worry about it.  I found no harmful effects from it.

 If you choose to attempt to balance them, take  Malcolm's advice to swap EGT leads first to ensure your problem isn't instrument  related.

 Deke Morisse

N148DM

S5/Soob/CAP

NE  Michigan



 [quote]   Hey List.

    

   My 582 is running great. Only complaint is that at cruise, EGTs for fwd    cylinder run consistently about 100 degrees cooler than aft cylinder, though    both are in the green. Would it be ok to equallize EGTs by leaning    only the fwd carb a tad?  Either by switching to a leaner mid    range jet needle or just raising the clip a notch?

    

   Seems I recall someone saying not to "unbalance" carbs in this way. Or    maybe I imagined it?

[b]

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: Re: 582 EGT's

Marco, is this indicated temperature difference has slowly of suddenly appeared, you must find out why.  Could be an air leak causeing a lean front cylinder.  If it has always been that way read on.



The egt on the front cylinder on my 503 was running 100 to 125 degrees hotter than the rear.  The front cyl gage would indicate 1225 to 1250 at cruise.  The spark plug color however indicated the jetting was okay.  I have the inflight adjustable needles and confirmed this by richening the front only.  It would 4 cycle (too rich) if I richened it to match the rear cyl temp.   It was like this from the beginning.



I switched the probes in the manifold to see if the hot cylinder followed the gage.  To my suprise the cylinders then indicated a maximum of 25 gegrees F difference and booth safely in the green at all throttle settings.



Now the confusing part.  I then switched the jumper leads on the probe cables so my gages would indicate the correct gage (front on the left needle and rear on the right needle) and match the cylinder head temp gages next to them and the sparrow needle adjustment knobs (front on the left and rear on the right).  The cylinder head temps are important because the 503 it is air cooled.  Well, the egts whent back to their old trick indicating 100 to 125 degrees hotter on the front.



So, it switched the jumper wires back and everything reads normal and even again.  Bottom line is use plug color and eggine performance (Smoothness) to jet and consider the indicated temperature to be the base line for your particular indication.



Now, I get to try my new signature thingy, did it work?

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:02 am Post subject: 582 EGT's

Thanks Mal, Deke, Tom and Bill.

   

  This isn't a sudden, new thing, rather something that I've noticed from the get-go. Plugs have been looking good so I won't obsess about it.

   

  I'll try Mal's suggestion, then proceed as Bill described.

   

  



Malcolmbru(at)aol.com wrote:

  [quote]     try swapping the egt senders just switch them at the  gage , to see if the gage is right   it can be sent to westach for re calibrating.  an air bubble in the head will give  a high egt  reading    malcolm michigan kit foxer 



    Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?

 Check out [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-]new cars at Yahoo! Autos.[/url]  [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject: 582 EGT's

Marco:

  

 The first thing to do is to  pull your plugs to see if they are both a nice tan colour.  If the front  plugs are much lighter than the rear ones then you are running lean on the front  cylinder.   Your EGTs should be within 50F of each other.  You  can reverse the probes on your engine to ensure you don't have a problem with  either the installation of the probes (wrong position in one exhaust port) or a  problem with one of the probes.

  

 Assuming you still get the  front cylinder running hot (lean) and your plugs bear this out, then you  are now running out of balance and you will need to increase the throttle pull  on the front carb or relieve the pull on the rear carb until the EGTs  balance.

  

 Keep us informed on how things  look

  

  

[img]cid:355542500(at)01052007-2254[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 

 Do not archive

 



 

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: 582 EGT's

Mal:

  

 You got  the EGT and CHT mixed a bit...  No liquid near the exhaust  gas.

  

 Usually  if there is a problem with an EGT it is the sender (Thermocouple) not the  gauge.  For that reason it's better to swap the thermocouples at the  exhaust "Y" than at the gauge.  

  

 The  gauge may be operating properly and a check of the spark plugs will confirm the  operation of the engine (Mixture wise) good or bad.  If the front plugs are  lighter than the rear then the EGT has successfully done it's job and alerted  you to an imbalance situation.

  

  

[img]cid:398273800(at)01052007-225B[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 

 Do not archive

 



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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject: 582 EGT's

Noel,

     Please re-read what you  said.  You are suggesting to unbalance the carbs to correct this problem  (assuming the carbs are in balance to start with).  Don't you mean to  change the needle positions to simply change the EGT's for that  carb?

 Don Smythe

Classic IV w/582

Newport News,  Va.

  

 out, then you are now  running out of balance and you will need to increase the throttle pull on the  front carb or relieve the pull on the rear carb until the EGTs  balance.

  

  

    [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: 582 EGT's

Don:

  

 The assumption I was making,  was that the front cylinder would already be running lean.  In that case  the carbs would currently be out of balance and need to be balanced.   This is usually done by adjusting the throttle cables.  At full  throttle the EGTs should be in balance because the needles will be  completely out of the orifices and if both orifices are equal then the carbs  should be perfectly balanced.

  

 This is pretty academic, as in  later posts it was determined that the plugs are consistent front to rear so the  difference in indicated EGT is probably in either the gauge or the  thermocouples.  (The thermocouples get my vote, they live in a harsh  environment. ) Even so the gauges can still be used to track trends in  temperatures.

  

 My own engine was showing a  50+F difference on the EGT gauge.  Turning one of the probes about 90 deg.,  while trying to remove it from the boss, brought them close enough that I can't  tell the difference in flight... Go figure.

  

  

[img]cid:812453402(at)01052007-2269[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 

 Do not archive

 



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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:54 am Post subject: 582 EGT's

I still don't quite follow what you are  saying.  To balance the carbs you want both carb slides working together  and opening exactly the same.  Next comes the EGT's if one cylinder is  running lean/Rich (after the carbs are synced/balanced) you then turn to  jets/needles.  Maybe we are talking the same thing just saying it  differently.

  

 Don Smythe

Classic IV w/582

Newport News,  Va.

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: 582 EGT's

I only move the clip on the  main needle during the changes of the seasons.  This close to sea level (  at this minute I guess about 18ft.) I don't mess with the jets or needles at  all, except to make sure they are clean.  If I were living in higher  altitudes that would no doubt change.  The pond I use for the plane is  even lower at about 9ft. depending on the tides which are minimal in this area.  (2-3 ft.)

  

 To get a proper carb balance  the same jets/needles should be in both carbs.  If one cylinder is pulling  a little less than the other, at less than full throttle, then, that  cylinder will run lean and the carbs can be considered to be out of  balance.  Balancing the only requires the the throttle draw on the lean  cylinder be increased slightly to bring the carbs into balance.  I use  T&E increasing the pull on the lean cylinder throttle cable around one flat  on the adjustment for each trial.  An EGT gauge will show you the changing  trends and the sparkplugs are the proof to the pudding.  I only use the EGT  for a guide...  They are the most lying S.O.B.s I've ever come  across.  That's not surprising as the environment the thermocouples work in  is at the least severe.  As I mentioned in an earlier post I had a change  in indicated EGT occur by turning one of the probes 90 deg in the  boss.

  

 If you have an imbalance at  full throttle then it's caused by differences in the cylinders or seals and  not imbalance in the carbs, assuming both carbs have the same jets and  needles.  No doubt that type of imbalance could be temporarily fixed by  mixing jets and needles but it is an indicator of a bigger problem  looming.

  

 When I was a teen ager an old  family friend, who was trained by Henry Royce showed me how to balance  carburettors with a stethoscope.  Choose one carb shove the end of the  stethoscope tube in the throat of the carb and listen to the sound as the engine  revs.  Then make the rest of the carbs sound like the first.  I've  been doing that for a long time and It's never failed me.  I even had my  tunes checked with the dual manometer and been spot on.  Of course with EFI  that process is a bit out dated..... 

  

  

[img]cid:375440014(at)01052007-2270[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 

 Do not archive

 



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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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