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Seat backs

 
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europa(at)pstewart.f2s.co
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:33 pm    Post subject: Seat backs Reply with quote

If I position my rear seat cushions (factory ones) hard up against
the fuel tank forward face, I end up with a large void in the lumbar
area. Likely to cause severe back ache for those like me 6'2"+
without a large cushion.

Have folk built out the seat back to follow the line given by the
headrest forward face? This would seem more comfortable and also
lower my head by being somewhat more recumbant.

Regards

Paul
G-GIDY


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mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:49 pm    Post subject: Seat backs Reply with quote

Paul,

You have it spot on. I have a rolled up blanket/groundsheet at the base of
the seat back. Made a big difference on the comfort front.

regards,

Mike

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ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:01 pm    Post subject: Seat backs Reply with quote

I built-in the geriatric option available from:
https://www.sptpanel.com/inflatable_lumbar_support.htm
(also from A/C Spruce), but find I don't use it much (yet!).
Duncan McF.

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hagargs(at)earthlink.net
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:02 pm    Post subject: Seat backs Reply with quote

Yes that is the thing to do. Follow the headrest angle. Have flown cross
country with this setup without any back pain in Erich Trombley's plane and
have set my plane like this with good results.

Steve Hagar
A143
Mesa AZ
Quote:
[Original Message]
From: Paul Stewart <europa(at)pstewart.f2s.com>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: 4/30/2007 1:36:36 PM
Subject: Seat backs



If I position my rear seat cushions (factory ones) hard up against
the fuel tank forward face, I end up with a large void in the lumbar
area. Likely to cause severe back ache for those like me 6'2"+
without a large cushion.

Have folk built out the seat back to follow the line given by the
headrest forward face? This would seem more comfortable and also
lower my head by being somewhat more recumbant.

Regards

Paul
G-GIDY




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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:40 pm    Post subject: Seat backs Reply with quote

Hi! Paul
I used BMW seat backs and the foam does that for me in that I arrange
for the seat back to be raised a little.
Regards
Bob H

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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:15 pm    Post subject: Seat backs Reply with quote

Hi Paul
As everyone says the seat back needs to follow the line of the headrest.
You need to get your butt as low as possible and as far forward as
practical, depends on the ratio of your torso length to leg length.
You might try a bean bag to find the best possiton, make one up that
fits the seat bottom but only half full of beans so that it is easily
adjustable, then lift yourself out and look at its shape.
Beans are even better than temperfoam btw, they have excellent shock
absorption, much better than springy foam.
Graham

Paul Stewart wrote:
Quote:


If I position my rear seat cushions (factory ones) hard up against the
fuel tank forward face, I end up with a large void in the lumbar area.
Likely to cause severe back ache for those like me 6'2"+ without a
large cushion.

Have folk built out the seat back to follow the line given by the
headrest forward face? This would seem more comfortable and also lower
my head by being somewhat more recumbant.

Regards

Paul
G-GIDY






--
Graham Singleton

Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005


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europa(at)pstewart.f2s.co
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:01 pm    Post subject: Seat backs Reply with quote

Many thanks to all who responded- much happier now. Ivor - as always
7 picture speak 7000 words many thanks

Paul
G-GIDY


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TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 5:10 am    Post subject: Seat Backs Reply with quote

In a message dated 5/1/2007 2:59:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:
Quote:
Have folk built out the seat back to follow the line given by the
headrest forward face? This would seem more comfortable and also
lower my head by being somewhat more recumbant.

Hi Paul,

I did exactly that, although my cushions are of my own design (and expertly sewn by my lovely bride)

What I did was continue the line of the headrest down to the seat pan to get an idea of the size and shape that the seat back cushion would need to be. Then, I took some blue foam and hot knifed a wedge of sorts that has a curve on the front lower side. This wedge sits in behind the cushion foam and fills the void left by the change in angle of the seat back. The blue foam doesn't allow the cushion foam to crush into the void and as such provides excellent lumbar support. It took several attempts to get the right lumbar support, but I finally arrived at a shape that makes the seat comfortable for hours. I designed the cushion covers to hold the foam wedge and the foam padding in place. I can send you some pictures and or a drawing of the hot knife template if you want. It might not fit your back as well as it does mine, but it would be a good place to start.

Anyway, hope it helps!

Regards,

John Lawton
Dunlap, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying - Mod 72 underway



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jrgowing(at)bigpond.net.a
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject: Seat Backs Reply with quote

Dear All

As another idea -

I modelled a seat by laying 4 plies of bid over a cheap plastic chair with good back support as used in public buildings.

To support the back I cut a pair of slots on the bend between seat and back to accept a supporting strap from the seat belt attachment bolt - this also allows adjustment for tilting the seat.

The front of seat is supported by 2 sprung shoot bolts which latch sideways into an array of holes in a diamond shaped piece of 3/8 ply, and attached at each side of the front edge of the "seat".

I have not yet sat in it for hours to try it!

JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz
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justin(at)systemwise.co.u
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:02 am    Post subject: Seat Backs Reply with quote

Hi All

First of all congratulations to Raimo. Well done. An achievement that only those who have been through it can really appreciate.

On the seat back thing. I have a bad back and did a lot trial and error to get the seat back right. At the risk of boring everyone rigid I have a little to add.

I agree with all that the slope of the top half has to be continued though I added one or two improvements to this.
I took a piece of 1 inch thick upholstery foam The shape of the seat back and then use a piece of high density foam one and a half inches square in section the width of the seat and rolled it into the 1 inch foam from the bottom up and stitched it in place with nylon thread. This made a lumber support on the bottom of the seat back.
Wedges of foam were then glued each side to provide the bucket seat type sides and the whole lot covered in leather. The sides of the seat are in contact with the body and help to retain you in the seat and distribute the pressure on your body over a wider area.

A leather flap continued over the headrest and down the back where it is attached by large Velcro patches either side of the seat belt anchorage. Velcro is very strong in tear and is easily adjustable.
I then attached the seat back by positioning it so that the lumbar support fitted right into the small of my back. This is below the kink in the seat back shape and effectively provides the continuation of the seat slope at the top. An additional patch of Velcro on the front at each side and the job is done.

The downside is that this takes a while to do. Something to do with why it took us 11 years to build G--ZTED
The benefits, I think, are worth the trouble. When getting into the aircraft everyone puts their backside on the headrest and slides down into the seat. The flap over the back attached by Velcro retains the seat back and because it is leather the slide down into the seat does not ruin or upset the seating. The height of the lumber support is adjustable by means of the Velcro in the unlikely event that you are going to let someone else fly it from the left hand seat. The right hand seat is the same and is frequently adjusted like this to accommodate all shapes and sizes. I have a spare bit of high impact foam to go under the pax seat squab if they are weeny. I have left the area below the lumber supports empty. This allows you to sit up and lean forward a bit more comfortably by sliding your backside right back to the firewall. The gap is only 3 to 4 inches and, although not thought of at the design stage, it allows a little ventilation in this area which is again more comfortable on long trips. G-ZTED is a Europa Classic with a short footwell and this all helps with the leg stretching room.

My wife and I have done quite a few 3 hour stints and have felt very comfortable throughout.

Reading back through this, it sounds a bit complicated. At the risk of looking silly I will send it anyway.

The flying season is here again so I hope to see some of you around and about the UK.
Safe flying to all
Regards
Justin Kennedy
G-ZTED Europa Classic Monowheel Rotax 912S Airmaster CP Prop


[quote][b]


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n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:28 am    Post subject: Seat Backs Reply with quote

Justin,
Take it from someone who spends most of their time "lurking quietly" on
this list, your input on the seat is well received. Thanks...
Ralph

Justin Kennedy wrote:
Quote:

Hi All



First of all congratulations to Raimo. Well done. An achievement that
only those who have been through it can really appreciate.



On the seat back thing. I have a bad back and did a lot trial and
error to get the seat back right. At the risk of boring everyone rigid
I have a little to add.



I agree with all that the slope of the top half has to be continued
though I added one or two improvements to this.

I took a piece of 1 inch thick upholstery foam The shape of the seat
back and then use a piece of high density foam one and a half inches
square in section the width of the seat and rolled it into the 1 inch
foam from the bottom up and stitched it in place with nylon thread.
This made a lumber support on the bottom of the seat back.

Wedges of foam were then glued each side to provide the bucket seat
type sides and the whole lot covered in leather. The sides of the
seat are in contact with the body and help to retain you in the seat
and distribute the pressure on your body over a wider area.



A leather flap continued over the headrest and down the back where it
is attached by large Velcro patches either side of the seat belt
anchorage. Velcro is very strong in tear and is easily adjustable.

I then attached the seat back by positioning it so that the lumbar
support fitted right into the small of my back. This is below the kink
in the seat back shape and effectively provides the continuation of
the seat slope at the top. An additional patch of Velcro on the front
at each side and the job is done.



The downside is that this takes a while to do. Something to do with
why it took us 11 years to build G--ZTED

The benefits, I think, are worth the trouble. When getting into the
aircraft everyone puts their backside on the headrest and slides down
into the seat. The flap over the back attached by Velcro retains the
seat back and because it is leather the slide down into the seat does
not ruin or upset the seating. The height of the lumber support is
adjustable by means of the Velcro in the unlikely event that you are
going to let someone else fly it from the left hand seat. The right
hand seat is the same and is frequently adjusted like this to
accommodate all shapes and sizes. I have a spare bit of high impact
foam to go under the pax seat squab if they are weeny. I have left the
area below the lumber supports empty. This allows you to sit up and
lean forward a bit more comfortably by sliding your backside right
back to the firewall. The gap is only 3 to 4 inches and, although not
thought of at the design stage, it allows a little ventilation in this
area which is again more comfortable on long trips. G-ZTED is a Europa
Classic with a short footwell and this all helps with the leg
stretching room.



My wife and I have done quite a few 3 hour stints and have felt very
comfortable throughout.



Reading back through this, it sounds a bit complicated. At the risk of
looking silly I will send it anyway.



The flying season is here again so I hope to see some of you around
and about the UK.

Safe flying to all

Regards

Justin Kennedy

G-ZTED Europa Classic Monowheel Rotax 912S Airmaster CP Prop





*
*


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DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 11:20 am    Post subject: Seat Backs Reply with quote

Justin,

No, it's not too lengthy. Sounds like a lot of thought was given to the comfort of both pilot and passenger. Do you happen to have any photos of your design that you might be able to provide?

Do Not Archive
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop


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europa(at)pstewart.f2s.co
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 1:36 pm    Post subject: Seat Backs Reply with quote

Justin

Thanks for your addition to the thread. As with Mike, if you had a
photo I'd be very keen to see.

Regards

Paul
G-GIDY


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rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 2:27 pm    Post subject: Seat Backs Reply with quote

Here's our solution for lumbar seat inserts that follow CPM slope. We made
them out of foam and balsa. The Factory rear seat cushion needed to be
raised 1" so the Velcro on it was aligned with the headrest, so we
incorporated a 1" piece of foam with the insert.

We cut the insert by marking the foam and using Rapid Epoxy to stick on a
piece of 1"x2" as a guide for the saw. A Carpenter's wood saw works, but
we liked better using a power hacksaw blade laying around. No matter have
one person on each side, sawing goes fast.

We have another concern, that is when air-brake cables get installed, the
insert needs to accommodate. We put 1/4" balsa on the front of the insert
which will allow us to cut foam for air-brake cables, and the 1/4" balsa
has enough strength on its own to keep the insert together. The rest of
the Balsa is 1/8".

The large part of the insert is made from Aircraft Spruce Polystyrene
Large Cell Foam, the 1" bottom laminate is Styrofoam Small Cell.

Ron Parigoris


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justin(at)systemwise.co.u
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:35 am    Post subject: Seat Backs Reply with quote

Hi All,

My heartfelt congratulations to Jac for another triumph. Well done. It’s great to see the fleet is expanding week by week.

Things moved so fast on this forum that by the time I had written up my seats and added pictures taken at the weekend the subject was dead and buried. My apologies for being so slow.

Anyway I have posted my seat contribution on the picture section in response to those who asked ‘off list’ for details.
A little measuring and there is enough there to hand the job to an unpholsterer. Sounds like treason to suggest it to all you dedicated ‘build everything yourself’ chaps. I should talk.

Safe flying to everyone. See you around.

Justin

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