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Broken Battery

 
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jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 12:53 am    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

I have an Odyssey PC680. Its 18 months old and has been in the A/C as power
whilst fitting wiring and instruments.

Now after a full charge all I see is about 12 Volts and placing a load of 2
or 3 amps on it sees the Voltage drop to about 9.5 V in about 10 mins after
which the EFIS and radio start to fall over.

It has been run completely flat on at least on occasion, maybe twice. I am
using a quality charger designed for AGM batteries. The local battery supply
shop has tested it and gets the same result.

I now have a new one.

Did running it flat stuff it?
Can it be bought back to life?

By the way I paid $240.00 US for the new one, what are you guys in the
States paying. I think the importer is ripping us off over here.

Chris Byrne
SYDNEY


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enewton57(at)cableone.net
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 5:10 am    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

The Odyssey 680 batteries are $96.80 U.S. from Aircraft Spruce in the Untied States.

Eric Newton - Long Beach, MS
BH #682
BEARHAWK BUILDER'S MANUALS
http://mybearhawk.com
[quote] ---


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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 9:04 pm    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

At 06:52 PM 5/5/2007 +1000, you wrote:

Quote:

<jack.byrne(at)bigpond.com>

I have an Odyssey PC680. Its 18 months old and has been in the A/C as power
whilst fitting wiring and instruments.

Now after a full charge all I see is about 12 Volts and placing a load of 2
or 3 amps on it sees the Voltage drop to about 9.5 V in about 10 mins after
which the EFIS and radio start to fall over.

It has been run completely flat on at least on occasion, maybe twice. I am
using a quality charger designed for AGM batteries. The local battery supply
shop has tested it and gets the same result.

I now have a new one.

Did running it flat stuff it?

Probably . . .

Quote:
Can it be bought back to life?


Probably not.
Quote:
By the way I paid $240.00 US for the new one, what are you guys in the
States paying. I think the importer is ripping us off over here.

Try a locally marketed brand in the same form factor. I think
you'll get a lower cost of ownership and better reliability
with less expensive batteries replaced more often. By the way,
the battery you just replaced probably wouldn't have cap-checked
at any really useful energy storage level.

Bob . . .

----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------


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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 9:09 pm    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

At 02:45 PM 5/6/2007 -0500, you wrote:

Quote:
PC-680: $84.29 from Batteries 4 Everything.

Website:
<https://www.batteries4everything.com/index.html>https://www.batteries4everything.com/index.html

Click on Products, Scroll down and click on: Odyssey, Hawker, Cyclon,
Genesis Batteries, Next page click on: Odyssey, Next page click on: PC680.

I'm sure shipping to Australia is expensive, but shouldn't be outrageous.
Outfit is very responsive and ships quickly in the States.

For the record, my PC-680 is approaching 5 years old, still holds a 12.8
volt charge indefinitely, spins the engine quickly and returns to a full
charge within moments of turning on the alternator. It sat on a bench with
no charger for nearly a year and still had over 12 volts charge. I do keep
a quality charger on it now for extended down times.

Do you depend on this battery as a backup to the
alternator? If so, have you cap-checked it recently?

Bob . . .


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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 9:00 am    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

Quote:

Do you depend on this battery as a backup to the
alternator? If so, have you cap-checked it recently?

Bob . . .


What is to "cap-check" a battery?

Carlos


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rjquillin(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 11:24 am    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

At 09:28 5/7/2007, you wrote:
Quote:

<trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>

> Do you depend on this battery as a backup to the
> alternator? If so, have you cap-checked it recently?
> Bob . . .

What is to "cap-check" a battery?

I would think that would be the capacity check. A detailed
procedure, similar to a load test, and commonly found in the ICAW
(Instructions for Continuing Air Worthiness) section of the battery
manual for certified products.

Ron Q.


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khorton01(at)rogers.com
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 1:19 pm    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

On 7 May 2007, at 12:28, Carlos Trigo wrote:

Quote:

<trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>

> Do you depend on this battery as a backup to the
> alternator? If so, have you cap-checked it recently?
> Bob . . .

What is to "cap-check" a battery?

See Bob Nuckolls' article on one way to do a capacity check:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battest.pdf

Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8


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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:29 pm    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

Quote:
> Do you depend on this battery as a backup to the
> alternator? If so, have you cap-checked it recently?
>
> Bob . . .

------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---

Bob,

Not sure how to do a cap check, so, no, I haven't done one.

My system is your On a Budget plan (Z-13? - my 'Connection book and
schematics are at the hangar.) I do have an SD-8 backup alternator.

I haven't flown yet, but anticipate doing so in the next couple of
weeks. I will install a new battery before doing any night or IFR
work. That will be sometime after I fly off the test hours.

Thanks for the input.

Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio

Hmmmm . . . okay. You won't need to depend on the
battery for endurance if you have an SD-8 as the
second source of engine driven power.

With two alternators, you can consider running the
ship's battery until it simply doesn't crank the engine
any more.

Cap-check is a capacity test. Something that everyone
who depends on the battery for alternator out, e-bus
support should do. The battery will get replaced before
it fails to crank the engine any more.
Bob . . .

----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------


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chasb(at)satx.rr.com
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:48 am    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

Bob,

Where can I get info on how to do a Cap-Check? What equipment is
required?

I realize this is pretty basic stuff, but I am clueless.

Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio

Quote:
Cap-check is a capacity test. Something that everyone
who depends on the battery for alternator out, e-bus
support should do. The battery will get replaced before
it fails to crank the engine any more.
Bob . . .



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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:27 am    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

At 10:40 AM 5/8/2007 -0500, you wrote:

Quote:


Bob,

Where can I get info on how to do a Cap-Check? What equipment is
required?

I realize this is pretty basic stuff, but I am clueless.

Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio

The simplest way is to take the time on some long VFR
day flight to put your system into the endurance mode
(turn alternator off and load shed) and see how long
it takes for your battery to get down to 10.5 volts.
This measures the time your battery is capable of
supporting the ship's most useful endurance systems.

Turn the alternator back on and it should recharge the
battery to mostly full in the next 30 minutes or so.
The preferred way is to use test equipment like:

http://westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm

or

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battest.pdf

or install our soon to be released in-situ battery
cap checker.

The point is that while everyone would like to
BELIEVE that their battery is sitting there ready
willing and able to get them comfortably on the ground,
the vast majority of batteries flying as you read
these words would probably fall short of the pilot's
fondest wishes should the alternator crap.

Goto the archives search engine at:

http://www.matronics.com/archives/

Select AeroElectric and then search for
"duration of fuel"

There a rich history of discussion on the value in
KNOWING what your battery is capable of before
you launch.

Bob . . .


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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:53 am    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

Bob,

It is my understanding that it takes relatively few (not quantified because
I don't have a quantity) full discharges to diminish the capacity of some
types of batteries. Is this correct? Do you have any info you can add to
firm up or discredit this idea.

Does doing cap checks present any risk to the battery?

Thanks,
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
[quote]--


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simon(at)synchronousdesig
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:07 pm    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

--

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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:11 pm    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

At 02:53 PM 5/9/2007 -0500, you wrote:

Quote:


Bob,

It is my understanding that it takes relatively few (not
quantified because
I don't have a quantity) full discharges to diminish the capacity of some
types of batteries. Is this correct? Do you have any info you can add to
firm up or discredit this idea.

A battery's service life is dependent on a host of variables
but with all things but deep-discharge cycles held constant,
the number of cycles until useful capacity drops to 80% of
nameplate value is a useful way to compare batteries.

It's also true that a battery's design can be optimized for
repeated deep-cycle service as opposed to say purely "cranking"
service. Take a peek at the Enersys Genesis application manual
at:

http://www.batterystore.com/Yuasa/YuasaPDF/GenesisApManual.pdf

and particular Figure 2.3.1 at:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Genesis_Cycle_Life.jpg

Here's a battery that under laboratory conditions is rated
for deep cycles (down to 10% or less of capacity) in excess
of 300 cycles.

At the same time, I've seen some claims by various authors
that some models of "deep cycle" battery can be depended upon for
perhaps 18-20 deep discharges while "cranking" versions tossed
in the towel at 3-4.
Quote:
Does doing cap checks present any risk to the battery?

Sure, a true capacity test requires that the battery be
deep cycled in so that one can count all the electrons it
contains. Obviously, one doesn't want to do a cap check at
the end of every flight, no matter how convenient. In practical
terms, one could wait a year for the first cap check assuming
the battery had not be discharged and allowed to sit for
a long time. In this case, I'd do a cap check right after
the first charge to recover it. It it looks okay, run it
a month or so before doing another cap check. If still
okay, revert to original schedule of 1 year and every
6 months thereafter. But if the capacity is marginal after
the first recover charge and doesn't go up a bit in capacity
for the second test, then this battery is probably "damaged
goods" and is worthy of peeking at it more often.

I've oft likened batteries to persnickety house plants.
If treated to optimize its life (assuming one knows exactly
what that means) then you can expect performance equal to
the designers goals. But most of us do not wish to become
Master Gardeners any more than we want to become Master
Battery Tenders. It's that old cost-of-ownership thing.

My own philosophy would be to buy inexpensively, and if
convenient, test occasionally but be ready to throw a new
puppy into the harness at the slightest question that my
endurance goals would not be met if I ran it another
test cycle (6 months or what ever you're using).

If your head is getting tight over optimizing your
battery purchase and maintenance decisions, then I'll
suggest that it's not your goal to become a Master Battery
Tender either. This is what prompts us to consider the
companion accessory to the IR Alternator Controller . . .
the In-Situ Battery Capacity Tester. This device will
offer an exceedingly convenient means by which one may
accomplish a meaningful test of the battery without
removing it from the airplane. At the same time, it
relieves us from resorting to purchases of premium
batteries with the mistaken notion that just because
it costs a lot more, we don't have to "worry" about it
so much.

A bit of battery maintenance knowledge and low cost
tools go a long way toward replacing worries with a
confident expectation supported by repeatable
experiment.

Bob . . .


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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

Quote:

The simplest way is to take the time on some long VFR
day flight to put your system into the endurance mode
(turn alternator off and load shed) and see how long
it takes for your battery to get down to 10.5 volts.
This measures the time your battery is capable of
supporting the ship's most useful endurance systems.
Bob,

If one is going to do what you say above, I would make sure that the
avionics switch is off and the engine is at low rpms when you turn the
alternator back on. I forgot to turn the alternator on one time, and
suddenly my radios went silent. I noticed that the alternator switch was
off, so I turned it back on. I zapped a Garmin 430 that way. Fortunately,
it was still in warranty, and they fixed it, but it surely was embarrassing
as well as potentially dangerous. I hope it never happens again, but if it
does, I will think twice about turning on the alternator while the prop is
swinging cruise rpms and the avionics switch is turned on.

Simon Ramirez, passing through Odessa, TX

Point well taken. If the ship's battery is poorly and/or
the alternator-regulator is prone to severe overshoot during
a turn-on event, the situation you describe is a risk.
However, it would have been really interesting to
repeat your experiment (radios off of course) and get data
on the magnitude and duration of the overshoot. Recall that
DO-160 calls for a 20V, 1-second withstand. See:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Whats_all_this_DO160_Stuff_Anyhow.pdf

I would be exceedingly surprised if your system pushed outside
this boundary. This suggests that while you probably DID
experience an overshoot event, it may have been the overshoot
combined with a edge of tolerance for the radio. Do you
have the manual for the 430? What does it say about DO-160
power input qualification?

But to be really gentle on things, the in-flight capacity
test should be terminated by first reducing the engine to flight-
idle before turning the alternator back on. If your battery just
passed the cap check, then it's also well capable of doing
it's job as the great mitigator of transient events. If the
thing died way earlier than you expected, then not only do you
want to consider a new battery at your earliest convenience,
exercising caution for bringing the system back up is certainly
warranted. Thanks for reminding me!

Bob . . .

----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------


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klehman(at)albedo.net
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:51 am    Post subject: Broken Battery Reply with quote

I would be reluctant to do this test in flight manually despite its
simplicity and relevance. In theory all is fine but if one drains the
battery too much (probably a lot lower than 10 volts?) AGM batteries can
be reluctant to absorb current when the alternator is brought on line.
It will also stress test the alternator if the battery does take the
charge and it charges the battery at a much higher rate than any battery
manufacturer seems to recommend. The fast recharge might damage an AGM
battery more than the deep discharge. And I'd be the guy that forgot and
left the radios on...

Admitedly my battery was stone dead when I brought the alternator on
line but I did it on the ground at slow idle and it still cost me a
regulator. Fortunately the OVM prevented other damage.

Ken

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:

<nuckollsr(at)cox.net>
>
> The simplest way is to take the time on some long VFR
> day flight to put your system into the endurance mode
> (turn alternator off and load shed) and see how long
> it takes for your battery to get down to 10.5 volts.
> This measures the time your battery is capable of
> supporting the ship's most useful endurance systems.
> Bob,
>
> If one is going to do what you say above, I would make sure that the
> avionics switch is off and the engine is at low rpms when you turn the
> alternator back on. I forgot to turn the alternator on one time, and
> suddenly my radios went silent. I noticed that the alternator switch
> was
> off, so I turned it back on. I zapped a Garmin 430 that way.
> Fortunately,
> it was still in warranty, and they fixed it, but it surely was
> embarrassing
> as well as potentially dangerous. I hope it never happens again, but
> if it
> does, I will think twice about turning on the alternator while the
> prop is
> swinging cruise rpms and the avionics switch is turned on.
>
> Simon Ramirez, passing through Odessa, TX
Point well taken. If the ship's battery is poorly and/or
the alternator-regulator is prone to severe overshoot during
a turn-on event, the situation you describe is a risk.
However, it would have been really interesting to
repeat your experiment (radios off of course) and get data
on the magnitude and duration of the overshoot. Recall that
DO-160 calls for a 20V, 1-second withstand. See:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Whats_all_this_DO160_Stuff_Anyhow.pdf
I would be exceedingly surprised if your system pushed outside
this boundary. This suggests that while you probably DID
experience an overshoot event, it may have been the overshoot
combined with a edge of tolerance for the radio. Do you
have the manual for the 430? What does it say about DO-160
power input qualification?

But to be really gentle on things, the in-flight capacity
test should be terminated by first reducing the engine to flight-
idle before turning the alternator back on. If your battery just
passed the cap check, then it's also well capable of doing
it's job as the great mitigator of transient events. If the
thing died way earlier than you expected, then not only do you
want to consider a new battery at your earliest convenience,
exercising caution for bringing the system back up is certainly
warranted. Thanks for reminding me!

Bob . . .

----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------



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