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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 5:40 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Considering all the talk about wing testing of the 601XL by Zenith, I'm considering putting them aside for now and working on the fuselage. I'm confident that Zenith will rectify any problems if found. That being the case, what problems will I encounter if I build the fuselage first? One problem I see is the center spar. I have one side drilled for the wing root and one side not drilled. If I start building the fuselage around it will I be able to pull it out with out a problem to set the dihedral on the table? Can I build most of the fuselage without the center spar and install the spar at a later time? I just want to keep moving forward and figured now may be a good time to start on the fuselage til we get official word on the wing tests and if there's any corrective actions that need to be taken.

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 6:22 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

The standard build order starts with the rudder and tail parts, then 

goes to wings, and finally fuselage.



I think one important reason for this is education of the 

builder.  It is much less expensive in both time and money to make 

mistakes on the simpler and smaller parts.  The fuselage is A LOT 

more complicated and difficult to build than the rest of the 

plane.  You are less likely to make a huge mistake on the fuselage 

after building the rest of the parts.



I consider this issue a lot more important to an individual builder's 

issues than the possibility that there may be a major design change 

at some undetermined time in the future.  It may be that there is no 

design change at all, or a big change might be some place other than 

the wings.



I am not saying I am not concerned about the structural failures.  I 

only think that the likelihood of a big fix in the near future is 

very small.  Also, my concern is large, but the real danger of a 

structural failure in any single  601XL with the current design is 

still very small.  It may turn out (much to my frustration) that the 

failures are simply results from overstressing the planes or improper 

cable tensions and if you keep within design limits you will be just fine.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive

At 06:40 AM 5/17/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Considering all the talk about wing testing of the 601XL by Zenith, 

I'm considering putting them aside for now and working on the 

fuselage. I'm confident that Zenith will rectify any problems if 

found. That being the case, what problems will I encounter if I 

build the fuselage first? One problem I see is the center spar. I 

have one side drilled for the wing root and one side not drilled. If 

I start building the fuselage around it will I be able to pull it 

out with out a problem to set the dihedral on the table? Can I build 

most of the fuselage without the center spar and install the spar at 

a later time? I just want to keep moving forward and figured now may 

be a good time to start on the fuselage til we get official word on 

the wing tests and if there's any corrective actions that need to be taken.



--------

Andy Shontz

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113305#113305

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 6:34 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

I thought about that too, the fact that a design change (if it occurs) would also be to the fuselage itself, unlikely though.



I'm very comfortable with my bulding skills at this point so switching to the fuselage doesn't bother me. I think you learn a lot more building from plans.



I'm just wondering if I'd be painting myself into a corner if I have to pull out the center spar temporarily to set the dyhedral and I can't. I see that as the biggest show stopper to building the fuselage at this point.



Believe me, I've actually entertained the idea of just stopping work all together on the XL and ordering plans for an HD. Wouldn't take me anywhere near as long to rebuild. I wouldn't be surprised if the HD uses the same stabilizer, elevator, and rudder (not saying it does, I don't know) so all I'd really be shit out of would be the time and a couple hundred dollars building the right wing. If it came to that, I bet the wing could be donated to a techinical school somewhere for a write-off that would net me whatever I spent building it.



 	  p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att wrote: 	
		  The standard build order starts with the rudder and tail parts, then 

goes to wings, and finally fuselage.



I think one important reason for this is education of the 

builder.  It is much less expensive in both time and money to make 

mistakes on the simpler and smaller parts.  The fuselage is A LOT 

more complicated and difficult to build than the rest of the 

plane.  You are less likely to make a huge mistake on the fuselage 

after building the rest of the parts.



I consider this issue a lot more important to an individual builder's 

issues than the possibility that there may be a major design change 

at some undetermined time in the future.  It may be that there is no 

design change at all, or a big change might be some place other than 

the wings.



I am not saying I am not concerned about the structural failures.  I 

only think that the likelihood of a big fix in the near future is 

very small.  Also, my concern is large, but the real danger of a 

structural failure in any single  601XL with the current design is 

still very small.  It may turn out (much to my frustration) that the 

failures are simply results from overstressing the planes or improper 

cable tensions and if you keep within design limits you will be just fine.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive

At 06:40 AM 5/17/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Considering all the talk about wing testing of the 601XL by Zenith, 

I'm considering putting them aside for now and working on the 

fuselage. I'm confident that Zenith will rectify any problems if 

found. That being the case, what problems will I encounter if I 

build the fuselage first? One problem I see is the center spar. I 

have one side drilled for the wing root and one side not drilled. If 

I start building the fuselage around it will I be able to pull it 

out with out a problem to set the dihedral on the table? Can I build 

most of the fuselage without the center spar and install the spar at 

a later time? I just want to keep moving forward and figured now may 

be a good time to start on the fuselage til we get official word on 

the wing tests and if there's any corrective actions that need to be taken.



--------

Andy Shontz

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113305#113305

gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Andy,



Tail feathers are the same. XL plans have all the latest do-dads for the

fairings and trim, but otherwise are interchangeable. 



BTW - ever looked across the dogfight circle and seen the oilcanning on the

wings of a Cessna 170A? HOLY COW!!!



Gary Boothe 

Cool, CA 

601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

Tail done, wings done, working on c-section

--

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Thanks, I figured they would be interchangable. So worst case, if I switch to an HD, I'm out like maybe $450 for what I spent to get the right wing to the stage I'm at, which is pretty far.



I'm sure any wing will oil-can under enough stress, that's how they break, buckling of the skin and spar (ie. extreme oil-canning). The thing is none should be observed under zero load.



 	  gboothe5(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  Andy,



Tail feathers are the same. XL plans have all the latest do-dads for the

fairings and trim, but otherwise are interchangeable. 



BTW - ever looked across the dogfight circle and seen the oilcanning on the

wings of a Cessna 170A? HOLY COW!!!



Gary Boothe 

Cool, CA 

601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

Tail done, wings done, working on c-section

--

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

ANDY, your driving me crazy, you remind me of a movie in which the

fellow gets all self induced hysterical and needs a DAM GOOD SLAP!!



Let the investigation continue, Andy build your wings, you won't see any

changes, in my opinion. Chris will test yet another XL to ease your mind

and the FAA will still undoubtedly leave a fog for concrete answers. The

FAA has not made any recommendations to the designer that I am aware of,

and with some knowledge, they will not make any recommendations in the

closure of the other incidents, so I believe. 

It has been unfortunate that several accidents have happened in a short

period, some of which were extremely stupid.



Having a plane fold it's wings and the rear spar fully intact on the

fuselage is the same as the one that entered into the side of the

wielding shop or exploded in mid air. Neither should be considered a

design flaw and unfortunately should be pointed at owner/builder error.

Be careful out their guys. Build your planes as the plans state, don't

make structural modifications without the designers approval.



Fly in conditions you can handle and know the abilities of your plane

and stay within them. In Canada the 601 series is not rated for

aerobatics and therefore cannot do any of them. Can the plane do some,

likely, I have heard of many people trying, many doing and possibly the

rest leaving a legacy for a couple on this list to cry about structural

integrity.



Build your plane and don't make ANDY changes ,fly your plane within it's

limits and you will have a bird that is fun and safe.



For the rest if you want to wait 8 mos to start building by all means

make sure your comfortable, myself I'm getting ready to soon let my only

daughter at the age of 14, use the 601XL to learn how to fly on. Don't

take this statement lightly there is NOTHING more important to me in

this life then my children.



Now lets get back to building and giving Andy a cuff upside the coconut,

(not really but I feel better picturing it).



Mark Townsend  Alma, Ontario

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com

do not archive



--

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

I'll let other comment here. I've heard that for every one person that actually speaks up that there's a hundred people thinking the same thng. So you get a hundred and I get a hundred.



 	  zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote: 	
		  ANDY, your driving me crazy, you remind me of a movie in which the

fellow gets all self induced hysterical and needs a DAM GOOD SLAP!!



Let the investigation continue, Andy build your wings, you won't see any

changes, in my opinion. Chris will test yet another XL to ease your mind

and the FAA will still undoubtedly leave a fog for concrete answers. The

FAA has not made any recommendations to the designer that I am aware of,

and with some knowledge, they will not make any recommendations in the

closure of the other incidents, so I believe. 

It has been unfortunate that several accidents have happened in a short

period, some of which were extremely stupid.



Having a plane fold it's wings and the rear spar fully intact on the

fuselage is the same as the one that entered into the side of the

wielding shop or exploded in mid air. Neither should be considered a

design flaw and unfortunately should be pointed at owner/builder error.

Be careful out their guys. Build your planes as the plans state, don't

make structural modifications without the designers approval.



Fly in conditions you can handle and know the abilities of your plane

and stay within them. In Canada the 601 series is not rated for

aerobatics and therefore cannot do any of them. Can the plane do some,

likely, I have heard of many people trying, many doing and possibly the

rest leaving a legacy for a couple on this list to cry about structural

integrity.



Build your plane and don't make ANDY changes ,fly your plane within it's

limits and you will have a bird that is fun and safe.



For the rest if you want to wait 8 mos to start building by all means

make sure your comfortable, myself I'm getting ready to soon let my only

daughter at the age of 14, use the 601XL to learn how to fly on. Don't

take this statement lightly there is NOTHING more important to me in

this life then my children.



Now lets get back to building and giving Andy a cuff upside the coconut,

(not really but I feel better picturing it).



Mark Townsend  Alma, Ontario

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com

do not archive



--

admin(at)arachnidrobotics
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

AMEN!  This list USED to be entertaining and helpful.  I hesitate to even open it in the last week...  



    do not archive



ZodieRocket <zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ZodieRocket" 



ANDY, your driving me crazy, you remind me of a movie in which the

fellow gets all self induced hysterical and needs a DAM GOOD SLAP!!



Let the investigation continue, Andy build your wings, you won't see any

changes, in my opinion. Chris will test yet another XL to ease your mind

and the FAA will still undoubtedly leave a fog for concrete answers. The

FAA has not made any recommendations to the designer that I am aware  of,

and with some knowledge, they will not make any recommendations in the

closure of the other incidents, so I believe. 

It has been unfortunate that several accidents have happened in a short

period, some of which were extremely stupid.



Having a plane fold it's wings and the rear spar fully intact on the

fuselage is the same as the one that entered into the side of the

wielding shop or exploded in mid air. Neither should be considered a

design flaw and unfortunately should be pointed at owner/builder error.

Be careful out their guys. Build your planes as the plans state, don't

make structural modifications without the designers approval.



Fly in conditions you can handle and know the abilities of your plane

and stay within them. In Canada the 601 series is not rated for

aerobatics and therefore cannot do any of them. Can the plane do some,

likely, I have heard of many people trying, many doing and possibly the

rest  leaving a legacy for a couple on this list to cry about structural

integrity.



Build your plane and don't make ANDY changes ,fly your plane within it's

limits and you will have a bird that is fun and safe.



For the rest if you want to wait 8 mos to start building by all means

make sure your comfortable, myself I'm getting ready to soon let my only

daughter at the age of 14, use the 601XL to learn how to fly on. Don't

take this statement lightly there is NOTHING more important to me in

this life then my children.



Now lets get back to building and giving Andy a cuff upside the coconut,

(not really but I feel better picturing it).



Mark Townsend  Alma, Ontario

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com

do not archive



--

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

 	  admin(at)arachnidrobotics wrote: 	
		  AMEN!  This list USED to be entertaining and helpful.  I hesitate to even open it in the last week...  



    do not archive



-- 	




Me too til I starting taking notice of the thread about wing flutter. There's still plenty of other fun and interesting thread on here.



do not archive

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 9:27 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Mark, I'm not trying to piss you off. I like you, you're a good guy and have personally taken the time to give me help with stuff and I appreciate that. I'm just wondering (as are others) what if anything is going on. I'd like to continue working on my plane and look forward to flying it at some point. I just want to know it truly is safe and doesn't have any anomolies. It makes sense to me at this point to move onto another area of the plane for the time being. There may never be anything conclusive or any changes other than the introduction of the CH601XLHD or something like. You never know. Figure I'll let it slide for awhile and see what happens. Doesn't mean I need to sit dead in the water.



 	  zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote: 	
		  ANDY, your driving me crazy, you remind me of a movie in which the

fellow gets all self induced hysterical and needs a DAM GOOD SLAP!!



Let the investigation continue, Andy build your wings, you won't see any

changes, in my opinion. Chris will test yet another XL to ease your mind

and the FAA will still undoubtedly leave a fog for concrete answers. The

FAA has not made any recommendations to the designer that I am aware of,

and with some knowledge, they will not make any recommendations in the

closure of the other incidents, so I believe. 

It has been unfortunate that several accidents have happened in a short

period, some of which were extremely stupid.



Having a plane fold it's wings and the rear spar fully intact on the

fuselage is the same as the one that entered into the side of the

wielding shop or exploded in mid air. Neither should be considered a

design flaw and unfortunately should be pointed at owner/builder error.

Be careful out their guys. Build your planes as the plans state, don't

make structural modifications without the designers approval.



Fly in conditions you can handle and know the abilities of your plane

and stay within them. In Canada the 601 series is not rated for

aerobatics and therefore cannot do any of them. Can the plane do some,

likely, I have heard of many people trying, many doing and possibly the

rest leaving a legacy for a couple on this list to cry about structural

integrity.



Build your plane and don't make ANDY changes ,fly your plane within it's

limits and you will have a bird that is fun and safe.



For the rest if you want to wait 8 mos to start building by all means

make sure your comfortable, myself I'm getting ready to soon let my only

daughter at the age of 14, use the 601XL to learn how to fly on. Don't

take this statement lightly there is NOTHING more important to me in

this life then my children.



Now lets get back to building and giving Andy a cuff upside the coconut,

(not really but I feel better picturing it).



Mark Townsend  Alma, Ontario

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com

do not archive



--

gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 9:56 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Andy,



There you go, again...



Wing flutter? ONE lister reported wing flutter in a very peculiar

circumstance! That hardly means that wing flutter is a problem, but the more

you bring it up, all of a sudden wings are fluttering off of 601's

everywhere.



To my knowledge, no one ever agreed what caused the wing flutter of the guy

who reported it while flying over a heat plume. It was certainly not agreed

that it was a structural problem with the wing.



You don't work for the RV guys, do you?



Gary Boothe 

Cool, CA 

601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

Tail done, wings done, working on c-section





Me too til I starting taking notice of the thread about wing flutter.

There's still plenty of other fun and interesting thread on here.



do not archive



--------

Andy Shontz

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113386#113386

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

I'm with Mark so add another 100.



 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  I'll let other comment here. I've heard that for every one person that actually speaks up that there's a hundred people thinking the same thng. So you get a hundred and I get a hundred.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Gray, what is a 601HDSTD?

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE"



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

601 HDS TailDragger. It’s my own acronym. Pretty clever, eh?  

   

So now, when you do your searches for wing failures on 601’s, you may have to include 601HDSTD.  

     

Gary Boothe 

 Cool, CA 

 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

 Tail done, wings done, working on c-section   

DO NOT ARCHIVE      

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeyoung65(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 11:12 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings  

  

     

Gray, what is a 601HDSTD?  

    

   

    

DO NOT ARCHIVE"  

  



 

         

  

See what's free at AOL.com.   

   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4

        [quote][b]

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

[quote]    Andy,

   Me too, add another 100,  I'll throw in some    bird house plans so you can be 100% safe as you have stated is your    desire. You are NOT gonna climb THAT hill building airplanes that    have "Experimental" on the side in big letters.        John

    

   do not archive

    

   



--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net (wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net)>



I'm    with Mark so add another 100.

ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'll let other    comment here. I've heard that for every one person that actually speaks up    that there's a hundred people thinking the same thng. So you get a hundred and    I get a hundred.

 


	




--------

W.R. &quot;Gig&quot;    Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR



[b]

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Et moi aussi,



Dred



---- Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I'm with Mark so add another 100.

 

 

 ashontz wrote:

 > I'll let other comment here. I've heard that for every one person that actually speaks up that there's a hundred people thinking the same thng. So you get a hundred and I get a hundred.

 > 

 

 

 --------

 W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 601XL Under Construction

 See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113400#113400

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:55 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Interesting responses considering I'm not even the one who mentioned wing flutter or originally posted the accident reports.



As far as working for RV, why would I work for RV AND build a 601XL with a webpage with posted progress?



Just looking for answers.



As far as the Experimental posting on the side, yup, mine will obviously have that as well as everyone else's. That being the case, that's exactly what it means, experimental, yet everyone comes down on me for doing just that, experimenting with the idea that perhaps the wings aren't as resistant to twist as they should or could be. When it comes to that, then I'm told to not toy with the idea (ie. don't experiment). So which is it, not experimental yet with Experimental on the side or truly experimental? If it's not experimental, then I'd like to see some more posted data that says that it's totally structurally sound in all respects up to +6 Gs.



do not archive

hillsgun(at)nwinfo.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Thank You. My sentiments exactly. Dan.

 [quote]   ---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: Re: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Andy,



I've pretty much stayed out of this. It is your airplane and as long as you can get it by the AW inspector you can do what ever the hell you want to it. 



What I have a problem with is you suggesting completely untested and un-engineered fixes to a problem that probably doesn't exist.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: 601XL Fuselage build before wings

Gary,

  

  This is where all the comments about wing flutter might comes from:

  

  "As the airplane flew to the southwest, he saw the wings  visibly vibrate, and observed what he thought were pieces of metal  separate from the airplane."  

  This comes from the NTSB report about the accident in Oakdale  California. Apparently, the guy who was flying over the plant is not  the only one who have experienced wing flutter. 

  

  William Dominguez

  Zodiac 601XL Plans

  Miami, Florida

  

Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> wrote:[quote]  --> Zenith-List  message posted by: "Gary Boothe" 



Andy,



There you go, again...



Wing flutter? ONE lister reported wing flutter in a very peculiar

circumstance! That hardly means that wing flutter is a problem, but the more

you bring it up, all of a sudden wings are fluttering off of 601's

everywhere.



To my knowledge, no one ever agreed what caused the wing flutter of the guy

who reported it while flying over a heat plume. It was certainly not agreed

that it was a structural problem with the wing.



You don't work for the RV guys, do you?



Gary Boothe 

Cool, CA 

601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

Tail done, wings done, working on c-section





Me too til I starting taking notice of the thread about wing flutter.

There's still plenty of other fun and interesting thread on here.



do not archive



--------

Andy Shontz

CH601XL - [quote][b]

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