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rdmac(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: Flying Question

I need input from anyone flying the model 5, 6 or 7. I’m having a CFII at our local airport giving my flight review and he tells me that I need to fly my approach around 55mph. He says that these Kitfox’s are made to land slowly. I have found that my plane seems to do best between 60 and 65mph on base and final with full flaps and keeping the end of the runway just above the glare shield   and once over the runway leveling out and holding it off, (here I’m between 45 and 50mph) till the plane decelerates and settles on to the runway. The problem here is I have all the speed options you can get on my plane and it is difficult to slow it down to a 55mph approach.  I can do a 55mph approach but the only problem with that is I have to flatten out the glide and fly such a low approach. I guess what I’d like to know is what approach speed is best for the Model 7 and at what speed do you land?  

   

Roger McConnell, Duncan, OK  

Model 7 Trigear, Rotax 912uls   

Flying sense Jan. 06  

   

        [quote][b]

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Flying Question

I fly the 4 and what I am reading here is that you have figured out a good landing for YOUR airplane, if the CFI doesn't agree with the way YOU land your airplane, well, I would find another CFI.  Sounds like he is going by what he is reading or hearing, not what is for YOUR airplane.  Hope this helps.  I don't think the CFI should be dictating approach speeds, he needs to be looking for safe operation, including landings.  If they are controlled and not all over the place, he shouldn't be trying to change your flying skills.

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Flying Question

Oh, one more thing. MY 4 flies a much better approach at 60 as well, and will flaten out as you say, if I go slower.

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject: Flying Question

If you built your for then you  wrote the pilot hand book and should tell the instructor that for your aircraft the correct is 60 to 65.  unless this instructor has more experience in your type of fox he might not know what he is talking about  

   

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger McConnell

 Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 8:25 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Flying Question  

  

   

I need input from anyone flying the model 5, 6 or 7. I’m having a CFII at our local airport giving my flight review and he tells me that I need to fly my approach around 55mph. He says that these Kitfox’s are made to land slowly. I have found that my plane seems to do best between 60 and 65mph on base and final with full flaps and keeping the end of the runway just above the glare shield   and once over the runway leveling out and holding it off, (here I’m between 45 and 50mph) till the plane decelerates and settles on to the runway. The problem here is I have all the speed options you can get on my plane and it is difficult to slow it down to a 55mph approach.  I can do a 55mph approach but the only problem with that is I have to flatten out the glide and fly such a low approach. I guess what I’d like to know is what approach speed is best for the Model 7 and at what speed do you land?  

   

Roger McConnell, Duncan, OK  

Model 7 Trigear, Rotax 912uls   

Flying sense Jan. 06  

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: Flying Question

When I did my flight  instruction my instructor had me do several circuits landing at different  speeds.  then he let me figure out what worked best....  Funny thing  is it was the same speed as the other instructors teach their students to  do.

  

  

[img]cid:399280903(at)07062007-184D[/img]  

 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)

 

 

 Do not archive

 



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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

tstaley(at)centurytel.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:19 am Post subject: Flying Question

Roger,

 The best way to figure your approach speed is to  find the stall speed then apply the rule of stall times 1.2 . This is the  lowest approach speed you can safely fly.

 My five likes 60 to 65. I would never go lower than  60 on final.

 I dont think your cfi has flown any  foxes.

 LeRoy

 Home grass strip, room in the hanger for  visitors.

 flyins are welcome.

   [quote][b]

mscotter

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Winston-Salem, NC

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:51 am Post subject: Flying Question

Uhh, I think that rule of thumb is stall times 1.3

  

 Mark Scott

 Elkton, MD

  

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Dacha" <tstaley(at)centurytel.net> 

    Roger,

 The best way to figure your approach speed is to find the stall speed then apply the rule of stall times 1.2 . This is the lowest approach speed you can safely fly.

 My five likes 60 to 65. I would never go lower than 60 on final.

 I dont think your cfi has flown any foxes.

 LeRoy

 Home grass strip, room in the hanger for visitors.

 flyins are welcome.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

_________________
Mark Scott
Winston-Salem, NC

frank.phyllis(at)mindspri
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: Flying Question

[quote]Roger,I’ve not flown my S7 yet (maybe this summer).  So my comments are from the general context.  For sure, when I’m in phase I of testing I will consider the following when determining my approach speed:  As a CFII (SE, ME, Glider) I have experienced many pilots want to a higher than recommended approach speed.  The Private Pilot PTS criteria for normal, short & soft field approaches:  “Maintain a stabilized approach and recommended approach speed, or in its absence not more than 1.3 Vso”  That’s near the speed most GA recommend for their aircraft.  The issue is the momentum of the AC, requiring more runway (maybe not much of an issue with the Kitfox) and the added degree of exposure to injury at the higher speed if there’s an accident (always a consideration).  That’s why the fatalities are so much higher for twins than single—higher approach speed. For what it’s worth. FrankN5929S7 [b]

Bob

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Damascus, Maryland, USA

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Flying Question

You're both right. 



Once upon a time, 1.2 was used as the ref number, but for a good while, 1.3 has been the accepted value.  Too many people let their airspeed get slow.  I use 1.3X whenever I get into a strange airplane, as it's easy to multiply against whatever is showing as stall on the airspeed indicator.



That said, the Fox is a very light airplane with a light wing loading, and there have been many low speed wind-related accidents on takeoff and landing.  The cure for wind is higher airspeed.  Think of it as more wind that you are in control of.  



With the speed and how you describe his guidance, it sounds like the instructor believes in Cessna stabilized approaches, where things are never varied from turning final, or from the FAF.  I'd suggest printing out the Kitfox accidents from the NTSB site (www.ntsb.gov) to discuss with him or go find somebody that gives instruction in a Kitfox, Champ, or similar lightly loaded taildragger.



Bob

_________________
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: Flying Question

At 06:24 PM 6/6/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm having a CFII at our local airport giving my flight review and 

he tells me that I need to fly my approach around 55mph. He says 

that these Kitfox's are made to land slowly.


	


Roger,

         I know you asked for 5 - 7 owners, but I'll throw in what I 

learned with my IV. When I started flying it I was rather shocked at 

the high glide rate and low approach angle. I was also shocked that 

the glide never seemed to steepen as you got slower. I was coming 

from Cessnas and Bonanzas, both of whom have a very obvious "best 

rate of glide" speed and can generate very steep descents in the 

landing configuration. If I land my IV fast, (60 mph,) my landings 

are long. Now, where I fly that's not a problem, because the first 

turn-out is about a 1000' down and if you land short you get to taxi 

nearly that whole distance. But I wanted to learn how to get down 

short. (100') One way is to land slow and fairly flat, with full 

flaps. I found I could land at five mph over stall, (35-40 mph,) and 

get very short landings. Note, though, that this is a power-on 

landing. You control your touchdown point with power. Otherwise the 

only way to control it is with a slip, and I won't slip at 5 mph over 

stall. (In the Bonanza and Cessna I control my touchdown point with 

speed. Nose up to go slower and descend faster; nose down to go 

faster and descend slower. If you pull the nose up on my IV it goes 

slower, but doesn't descend any faster so you don't move the 

touchdown point any closer.)

         Another way to land short is slow and steep with a severe 

slip. My problem with this is that I haven't determined how slow I 

can go in a slip without spinning. So I slip fast (50-60) and have to 

bleed speed near the ground. This results in longer landings again.

         I recommend doing it your way AND doing it his way. I'd try 

both, as well as fast wheel landings, minimum speed full flap 

landings, full slip landings, one wheel landings, (not the nose 

wheel, though,) and anything else you can think of! I've found my 

Kitfox to be incredibly forgiving, with no "right" way to land.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Flying Question

Guy,

I do slips all the time, the best advice, the more you push on the stick the more you can put in the rudder, I go on feel and noise of the wind.  As I get closer to the ground and start to pull back on the stick I reduce the slip aka the rudder as I get to rounding out, once in the flair I'm straight and no slip.  hope this helps.  I guess you can go on your negative  vertical speed on the amount of slip to apply, more negative more slip.

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: Flying Question

stall * 1,3 is correct now, and + half the gust  factor.

  

 Jan

  

 [quote]   ---

rexinator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: Flying Question

CFI's are not infallible. To my knowledge there is no requirement for a 

CFI to know the details of experimental aircraft design and their 

operating parameters as part of the exams. If he is an inexperienced CFI 

you may be able to inform him of the reasoning and authority you have as 

a manufacturer to define operating numbers. So don't be afaird to do so. 

Start out with a casual question of his experience with experimental 

aircraft and be prepared to quote FARs if he hasn't educated himself on 

the subject yet.



Rex Hefferan

SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Flying Question

My IV seems to behave differently from the rest of you. If I slow her down, she comes in steaper. At 55, the rate of descent is a little faster than at 60 but, since I'm going slower, my angle of descent is noticeably greater. In fact, I prefer to come in with a little power to open up the pattern a bit. At idle, I have to cut my down wind leg shorter than I'm comfortable with to make the runway.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Flying Question

Hi Roger,



I’ve flown a Kitfox Model 1 for thirteen years, am an EAA Flight Advisor. The usual recommendation is to fly your approach at Vso times 1.3, where Vso is your stall speed (with flaps set to landing position). My Kitfox has a Vso of about 33 mph. That would make my approach speed 1.3 x 33, or 43 mph. Not coincidentally, that’s also about my best glide speed. But I don’t fly the pattern or approach that slowly – please read on. 



First, why is Vso x 1.3 recommended? One reason is because it is very close to the best glide speed in case of engine failure. Another reason is because it’s the slowest you’d want to go around the pattern, giving a somewhat safe margin from stall during a 30-degree bank. Also, maintaining Vso x 1.3 is important for aircraft that fly fairly fast so that a lot of deceleration is not required over the runway – limiting the approach speed to Vso x 1.3 plus a gust-margin is important for aircraft that tend to use a good portion of the runway on landing. Keep in mind that Vso changes with landing weight and density altitude. 



That having been said, there’s NO way I’d fly my Kitfox around the pattern as slow as 43 mph….or even 53 mph. First, I don’t want to grow old in the pattern. Second, I don’t want to be an impediment to other aircraft behind me. However, it’s more than just a kind consideration to fellow aviators – being really slow in the pattern is an actual safety issue. For that reason, my target pattern speed is 70 mph. I keep that speed all the way down until I begin the flare. Yes, I float a little. 



If I’m going into a very short field, I modify my usual approach to fly as low as 43 mph on final plus an optional gust-margin. Even in that case, however, I would still tend to use 43 only after base leg because there’s no real advantage to fly slower until then. Even airliners fly faster speeds on approach than on final, decelerating in the pattern. I have qualms about flying the pattern and early approach at 70. 



Another nice thing about a Kitfox is that it slips so nicely to burn off altitude and airspeed. I tend to fly a little high and a little fast. That way, if I have an engine failure in the pattern, I can glide to the field. 



I do my final aiming adjustments by slipping or by throttle. If you don’t slip often, you might give it a try. It’s not only a good thing to learn but it can be fun. And using slips can control your landing spot very accurately. If you’re not interested in using slips, then you can still fly at say 70 around the pattern and just learn the best way to decelerate on short final by using throttle. 



My thought is to find a comfortable speed you like for flying the pattern and then decelerate on short final. It just makes sense for slow-flying aircraft. 



Mike Perkins

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Flying Question

Since we are making conversation on flying patterns, mine are what I think is necessary at the time I'm flying, meaning, if there is traffic, I'll either speed up or slow down depending.  If I have to delay my down wind, I'll go to 55 and as soon as I am ready for my base, I pull up just a little and slow to 50, then, now this is really fun, I put in full rudder to the direction I'm turning and  aileron and down elevator.  I leterally rotate in place, very cool.   If I need to speed it up I'll hit full bull and do around 120 in the downwind and base and final is around 80 with bleeding off and a major slip in the process, generally a base to final will be over the numbers about 10 ft. off very cool fun and takes the, crap this is boring, out of flying.  



As far as the engine out logic, this is mine, if the engine isn't up to par don't take off.  Must be why I have a Rotax 912.  Have a nice day and above all, make the flying fun.

andynfultz(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: Flying Question

As far as the engine out logic, this is mine, if the engine isn't up to par

don't take off.  Must be why I have a Rotax 912.  Have a nice day and above

all, make the flying fun.

  Kitfoxmike,



  You have obviously never had a perfectly good running engine quit on you.

I don't care what you are running, you had better be prepared for it to

happen at the least opportune time.  It can and will if you fly long enough.

It's a scary feeling yet very comforting to know that you can "make the

field" when it does happen.



Andy Fultz

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Flying Question

Mine is a series 5 with an IO-240



I chop power on downwind, slow down to 60 set my trim, turn base,

then start slipping (60 mph) on base/final. I fly tight patterns, and

mostly don't use any flaps. I'm probably starting to get the nose up

into the serious part of the flare once I know I have runway under

me, at that point speed is dropping from the 60 I flew on final to final

plopdown around 35-40. 



Any faster than 60 on final and I need to bring lunch while I wait for

touchdown.



I compensate for Cessna's, etc. By simply flying tight patterns, and slip 

a lot. They're always 2 miles out on final anyway, so not really a problem. 



Most CFI's will be in major pucker mode in my plane, because they

simply are not used to the nose high attitude of the plane, or the slow

speed.  If the CFI does not have time in a Kitfox, or something very

similar they are really not qualified to comment on how best to fly 

it in my opinion.



Somebody mentioned something about engine failure. Well mine did,

when the engine driven pump failed on my sixth test flight. I was 3000

AGL and glided about 4 miles back to the airport. I always fly with an

awareness of fields, etc, and adjust my flight path accordingly. I fly 

under the O-Hare Class B a lot, and emergency landing here can mean 

a subdivision (no thanks).  SO my advice to the guy who mentioned 

he doesn't worry about it ... Please do NOT fly over my neighborhood. 



I think assuming your engine is not going to fail, is in effect assuring that

it will.

 

Jeff Hays

Series 5, IO-240B

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Flying Question

Oh, I think about the engine all the time, I just don't obsess about it.  I make checks on my engine and do a preflight on the aircraft before each flight.  I too make short approaches for the reason that if the engine did fail I'm close to the runway, at least that's a good excuse for doing them.  Those pilots that do the 2 mile approaches are the ones that WILL have a big problem if the fan quits.



For those that try to preplan what to do if the fan quits.  Try this one, pick a landing spot for a simulation, now go low and slow and check that landing spot out, might scare you.  Better yet, take your land vehicle and go check out some of the spots you picked out.  Big difference from picking one at 1000ft versus on the ground looking at them.  Might change your perception of good landing spots.  I still think landing on a road and hitting a sign or two is much better.

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