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asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:14 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

The last time I checked (which was admittedly four or five year ago),

an uncertified 914 was selling for $18k. Now it is up to almost $30k.

With a hydraulic governor, I am looking at close to $35k. What's up

with these prices??

gcrowder2

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Can't help but mention the Soob option.  Sure been a winner for me for five years.

   Same or better performance than the 914 with half the price.  I did have to adjust 

 the valves once.

  

                                               Glenn



 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:13:57 -0700

 From: asarangan(at)yahoo.com

 Subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)yahoo.com>

 

 

 The last time I checked (which was admittedly four or five year ago),

 an uncertified 914 was selling for $18k. Now it is up to almost $30k.

 With a hydraulic governor, I am looking at close to $35k. What's up

 with the=============

 

 

 


	


Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search Club.   Join Live Search Club!  [quote][b]

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Because they can......



--

DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Andrew,

  

 Seems like too many customers and not enough 914's....law of supply and demand. Have you checked on the Jabiru 3300A? While I am not flying mine yet, it sure looks pretty sitting on the front of my plane. And according to FlightCrafters in Florida, they install plenty of them. Contact Andy at Suncoast Sportplanes. He made me quite a deal on a complete engine package.  

www.suncoastjabiru.com 

  

Mike Duane A207A

Redding, California

XS Conventional Gear

Jabiru 3300 

Sensenich R64Z N

Ground Adjustable Prop



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Thanks for that input. I am still a long time away from having to make

an engine decision. I purposely decided against purchasing the 914 when

I started my build. My reasoning was that I should be able to get a

better powerplant for a lower price due to the natural progress in

technology. With Rotax that turned out to be an expensive mistake.

Compared to 5 years ago, the 914 is nearly 50% more expensive, and the

Europa kit is also higher by that much. 



I am hoping that in the next few years the LSA manufacturers would

create a demand for newer technology at a lower price. If Rotax can't

meet that need, someone else might. What would be exciting is a small

turbine, such as the one Innodyne is developing. If Innodyne's claims

turn out to be true, a 120-hp turbine system that runs at 8 gph and

costs under $20k should be within reach. We can dream...



So, I am going to take the wait-and-see option. I hope I don't have to

pay $50k for a 914 in a few years.



--- DuaneFamly(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Andrew,

  

 Seems like too many customers and not enough 914's....law of supply

 and 

 demand. Have you checked on the Jabiru 3300A? While I am not flying

 mine yet, it 

 sure looks pretty sitting on the front of my plane. And according to 

 FlightCrafters in Florida, they install plenty of them. Contact Andy

 at Suncoast 

 Sportplanes. He made me quite a deal on a complete engine package.  

 _www.suncoastjabiru.com_ (http://www.suncoastjabiru.com)  

 Mike Duane A207A

 Redding, California

 XS Conventional Gear

 Jabiru 3300 

 Sensenich R64Z N

 Ground Adjustable Prop

 

 

 

 ************************************** See what's free at

 http://www.aol.com.

M.Grass(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Adrew,

 All,

  

 I hate those prices too but this is not Rotax's fault. Keep in mind that you deal with an European product and near all (if not all) parts are made in Europe so only the European currency can be used as a measure.

  

 5 Years the exchange rate was at  0.90 Dollar for an Euro. That means the hard core currency of 18000 US Dolar was worth 20000 Euros.

  

 Today with our weak US Dollar we have to spend near 1.37 Dollar for a single Euro. This means 30000 Dollar US buys 23000 Euro.

  

 Now do the math.

  

 20000 Euros with an annual price increase of only 3 % is 23000 Euros.

  

 Not bad.

  

 Not try to defend anybody here but it all is about fair comparison.

  

 Regards

  

 Michael Grass

 A266 Trigaer Detroit   

  

  ttp://  [quote][b]

asarangan(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

There is also the fact that USAF is buying up the 914 for the Predator

UAV's.

--- M.Grass(at)comcast.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Adrew,

 All,

 I hate those prices too but this is not Rotax's fault. Keep in mind

 that you deal with an European product and near all (if not all)

 parts are made in Europe so only the European currency can be used as

 a measure.

 5 Years the exchange rate was at  0.90 Dollar for an Euro. That means

 the hard core currency of 18000 US Dolar was worth 20000 Euros.

 Today with our weak US Dollar we have to spend near 1.37 Dollar for a

 single Euro. This means 30000 Dollar US buys 23000 Euro.

 Now do the math.

 20000 Euros with an annual price increase of only 3 % is 23000 Euros.

 Not bad.

 Not try to defend anybody here but it all is about fair comparison.

 Regards

 Michael Grass

 A266 Trigaer Detroit   

 -------------- Original message -------------- 

 From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)yahoo.com> 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > The last time I checked (which was admittedly four or five year

 ago), 

 > an uncertified 914 was selling for $18k. Now it is up to almost

 $30k. 

 > With a hydraulic governor, I am looking at close to $35k. What's up

 > with these prices?? 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 >

aireupora(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Is theSoob option the Subaru Engine?  If so what was the cost, what prop. What is your aircraft weight?



glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com> wrote:  [quote]    P  {  margin:0px;  padding:0px  }  body  {  FONT-SIZE: 10pt;  FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma  }     Can't help but mention the Soob option.  Sure been a winner for me for five years.

  Same or better performance than the 914 with half the price.  I did have to adjust 

the valves once.

 

                                              Glenn



[quote] Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:13:57 -0700

 From: [quote][b]

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Andrew Sarangan a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 There is also the fact that USAF is buying up the 914 for the Predator

 UAV's.

   


	


Andrew,



They are not buying that many engines 

Michael's ananlysis may be right : the exchange rate between currencies 

has drastically changed within a few years.



The 914 remains an expensive engine, but remember that what counts is 

the mission cost. And given the respective fuel rates, our American 

friends still fly for less than the Europeans.



BTW, the Jabiru 3300 compares with the 912S. In Europe, prices en weight 

are about the same.



Regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

The other thing that makes the price look so high for USA builders is

the present low value of the dollar. I also suspect the price

differential between the 914 and the 912(S) has increased due to the USA

military buying so many 914's. Whilst I appreciate that the turbo is

useful in high altitude environments the 912S is enough power for most

Europas (especially when it has a constant speed prop).



Nigel Charles



--

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

It is worth bearing in mind that the Subaru is at least 50lb heavier than the Rotax. This extra weight can be very significant. I know of one Subaru powered Europa that is up to max T/O weight when it is full of fuel with two adults aboard before any baggage has been loaded. This is also one of the reasons the Wilksch diesel has not been successful with the Europa (apart from its slow development).   

   

Heavy engines also give C of G problems. To balance the heavier engine, either the battery needs to be mounted right at the back of the fuselage or lead added. This adds inertia which does tend to make control of the aircraft a little more difficult (particularly relevant for monowheel Europas on hard runways).  

   

Nigel Charles  

   

   

   

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of glenn crowder

 Sent: 04 June 2007 23:06

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: What's up with the cost of 914?  

   

 Can't help but mention the Soob option.  Sure been a winner for me for five years.

   Same or better performance than the 914 with half the price.  I did have to adjust 

 the valves once.

  

                                               Glenn

 

 > Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:13:57 -0700

 > From: asarangan(at)yahoo.com

 > Subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 > 

 > --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)yahoo.com>

 > 

 > 

 > The last time I checked (which was admittedly four or five year ago),

 > an uncertified 914 was selling for $18k. Now it is up to almost $30k.

 > With a hydraulic governor, I am looking at close to $35k. What's up

 > with the=============

 > 

 > 

 >  <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>      

  

Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search Club.   Join Live Search Club!   [quote]            - The Europa-List Email Forum -   --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List              - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -   --> http://forums.matronics.com [b]

gcrowder2

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:41 am Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Well, its been a real easy lander for me, and I fly a mono only on hard runways at high

 altitudes.  No ground loops, no "issues".  Weight is identical to most 914 powered monos with

 CS props at 930 lbs.  Too much power is just enough!  Two up in the summertime the 912S powered LSA's around my field are total dogs at this altitude, barely clearing the power lines at the end of the field!

  

                                                Glenn

  

   From: nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: What's up with the cost of 914?

Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 08:30:20 +0100



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 [quote]  

It is worth bearing in mind that the Subaru is at least 50lb heavier than the Rotax. This extra weight can be very significant. I know of one Subaru powered Europa that is up to max T/O weight when it is full of fuel with two adults aboard before any baggage has been loaded. This is also one of the reasons the Wilksch diesel has not been successful with the Europa (apart from its slow development).  

  

Heavy engines also give C of G problems. To balance the heavier engine, either the battery needs to be mounted right at the back of the fuselage or lead added. This adds inertia which does tend to make control of the aircraft a little more difficult (particularly relevant for monowheel Europas on hard runways). 

  

Nigel Charles 

  

  

  

--

robh(at)hyperion-ef.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

On this date in 2002 one Euro was worth US$0.94 but today that same Euro is

worth US$1.35 so the exchange rate alone would make that US$18,000 increase

to almost US$29,000.  Our government spends our tax money like a drunken

sailor while the EU is much more prudent. The inevitable result is a dollar

that is not worth what it once was.

Best regards,



Rob Housman

Irvine, California

Europa XS Tri-Gear

S/N A070

Airframe complete

--

n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:35 am Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Glenn,

Just for interest sake, where do you fly out of? I will be flying from 

Stead, NV( SD4) where summer density altitudes are 8000+.

Ralph

914 xs mg



glenn crowder wrote:

[quote]    Well, its been a real easy lander for me, and I fly a mono only on 

 hard runways at high

 altitudes.  No ground loops, no "issues".  Weight is identical to most 

 914 powered monos with

 CS props at 930 lbs.  Too much power is just enough!  Two up in the 

 summertime the 912S powered LSA's around my field are total dogs at 

 this altitude, barely clearing the power lines at the end of the field!

  

                                                Glenn

  

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 From: nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: What's up with the cost of 914?

 Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 08:30:20 +0100

     It is worth bearing in mind that the Subaru is at least 50lb

     heavier than the Rotax. This extra weight can be very significant.

     I know of one Subaru powered Europa that is up to max T/O weight

     when it is full of fuel with two adults aboard before any baggage

     has been loaded. This is also one of the reasons the Wilksch

     diesel has not been successful with the Europa (apart from its

     slow development).



      



     Heavy engines also give C of G problems. To balance the heavier

     engine, either the battery needs to be mounted right at the back

     of the fuselage or lead added. This adds inertia which does tend

     to make control of the aircraft a little more difficult

     (particularly relevant for monowheel Europas on hard runways).



      



     Nigel Charles



      



      



      



     --

gcrowder2

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Hi Ralph, same here near Denver - 8300+ DA's!  Yikes!

  

                                  Glenn



[quote] Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 10:34:06 -0700

 From: n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: What's up with the cost of 914?

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Ralph K. Hallett III" <n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net>

 

 Glenn,

 Just for interest sake, where do you fly out of? I will be flying from 

 Stead, NV( SD4) where summer density altitudes are 8000+.

 Ralph

 914 xs mg

 

 glenn crowder wrote:

 > Well, its been a real easy lander for me, and I fly a mono only on 

 > hard runways at high

 > altitudes. No ground loops, no "issues". Weight is identical to most 

 > 914 powered monos with

 > CS props at 930 lbs. Too much power is just enough! Two up in the 

 > summertime the 912S powered LSA's around my field are total dogs at 

 > this altitude, barely clearing the power lines at the end of the field!

 > 

 > Glenn

 > 

 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 > From: nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk

 > To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 > Subject: RE: What's up with the cost of 914?

 > Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 08:30:20 +0100

 >

 >

 > It is worth bearing in mind that the Subaru is at least 50lb

 > heavier than the Rotax. This extra weight can be very significant.

 > I know of one Subaru powered Europa that is up to max T/O weight

 > when it is full of fuel with two adults aboard before any baggage

 > has been loaded. This is also one of the reasons the Wilksch

 > diesel has not been successful with the Europa (apart from its

 > slow development).

 >

 > 

 >

 > Heavy engines also give C of G problems. To balance the heavier

 > engine, either the battery needs to be mounted right at the back

 > of the fuselage or lead added. This adds inertia which does tend

 > to make control of the aircraft a little more difficult

 > (particularly relevant for monowheel Europas on hard runways).

 >

 > 

 >

 > Nigel Charles

 >

 > 

 >

 > 

 >

 > 

 >

 > --

n914va(at)bvunet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Rob,

I must say that I am somewhat offended. I spent 4 years in the US Navy, and 

even on the rare occasions when I was drunk, I did not spend money as 

foolishly as the US government. Please be more careful with your metaphors. 





Vaughn Teegarden



---

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

930 lb for a  typical mono ? Well perhaps.

  

 3 years ago I  took the weight of 19 completed XS 914T Mono Europa's with CS props and  came up with an average of 865 lbs.  Mine came in at 860 lbs and with what  I know now I believe I could build it 20 lb lighter.

  

 With that all  said, your correct,  all the HP you can muster during the take off phase is  highly desirable.

  

 At the risk  of sparking a debate, I found the 914 to be a game changer for the aircrafts  performance, but, I state this in the context of my mission profile.  I  typically fly 2 legs of 400 nm in the 8000 ~ 12,000' feet range.  At this  altitude I see 148 knots TAS with a fuel burn of 5.1 ~ 5.3 US gallons per  hour.

  

 Just my 2  cents worth.

  

 Paul  

  

 N378PJ

  

 617 hours and  still grinning

 [quote]   --

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Glenn

don't disagree with your main issues, there's almost never too much 

power. (There can be too much torque though!) but 930lbs?

The best Europa Rotax monos come in at around 780 lbs and you can really 

tell the difference in performance. Why carry around an extra 150lbs?

Too much paint, too many steam age instruments is part of the problem.

Graham



glenn crowder wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		      Well, its been a real easy lander for me, and I fly a mono only on 

 hard runways at high

 altitudes.  No ground loops, no "issues".  Weight is identical to most 

 914 powered monos with

 CS props at 930 lbs.  Too much power is just enough!  Two up in the 

 summertime the 912S powered LSA's around my field are total dogs at this 

 altitude, barely clearing the power lines at the end of the field!

  

                                                Glenn

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Rob

I wish the Brussels mob were as prudent as you suggest. We pay very high 

taxes whereas perhaps your mob just print extra dollars. The result is 

similar

Graham



Rob Housman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 On this date in 2002 one Euro was worth US$0.94 but today that same Euro is

 worth US$1.35 so the exchange rate alone would make that US$18,000 increase

 to almost US$29,000.  Our government spends our tax money like a drunken

 sailor while the EU is much more prudent. The inevitable result is a dollar

 that is not worth what it once was.

 

 

 Best regards,

 

 Rob Housman

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: What's up with the cost of 914?

Paul

Your real experience is worth a lot more than 2 cents.

Graham



Paul McAllister wrote:

  I typically fly 2 legs of 400 nm in the 8000 ~ 12,000'

 	  Quote: 	
		   feet range.  At this altitude I see 148 knots TAS with a fuel burn of 

 5.1 ~ 5.3 US gallons per hour.

  

 Just my 2 cents worth.

  

 Paul

  

 N378PJ

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