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gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

Let me be a little sensational or hype it, you are playing with fire.

   

  Do what ever you want but you are adding weight, build time 

(requires welding) and cost if you buy the (Mororso, Mr. Gasket,  

Jegs, summit) crankcase evacuation systems designed for drag 

racers.

 

What VAN recommends and shows on his plans is placing the 

breather near the outside of the pipe with a angle cut INTO THE 

WIND or facing forward, NOT aft. The air flow in the cowl is not the 

same as inside the exhaust pipe. The key is the angle cut, but why 

change it, if it ain't broke? Just follow plans that came with your RV. 

Call Van and ask them. I think they know something about building 

planes. 

 

The idea is NOT to create suction or vacuum on the end of the 

breather for some perceived increase in HP from reduced oil "Wind-

age". We are talking about a Lyc at 2,500 rpm not a 10,000 rpm drag 

engine.  

 

If you do suck more air out the breather its likely you will suck 

more oil out the engine. You can put "metering pills" in but you really 

are just getting back to what you had outside the pipe. The idea of a 

0.125" orifice scares me. A piece of gunk could block that.

 

YES PUT THE Whistle stop in. A breather blockage could ruin your 

whole day or life. Repeat a Blocked the Breather can Kill You.! 

 

There is no guarantee in life and that is cheap insurance. Read 

these:

 

[url=http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 050427X00513&key=1]http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 050427X00513&key=1[/url]

[url=http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 001212X22309&key=1]http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 001212X22309&key=1[/url]

[url=http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 001211X09800&key=1]http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 001211X09800&key=1[/url]

[url=http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 001212X18647&key=1]http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 001212X18647&key=1[/url]

 



  As far as comments about "I don't know how it can be blocked", I 

say you have little imagination. There's a guy named Murphy that will 

screw you up. Now why would you NOT want a whistle slot? A bug 

or something could block it. You could accidentally pinch it while 

working on the plane previous to the flight...........use your 

imagination.

 

No matter how you vent the crankcase, the health of the engine has 

more to do with the amount of oil going out the breather than the angle 

of the breather tube end or where it's at. What ever you do don't 

cut the breather end square.

 

Follow the PLANS is my advice,  simple, light, works, won't freeze as 

some imply.

 

George ATP/CFI-II-ME/RV-4/-7



        Get the Yahoo! toolbar and [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48225/*http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php]be alerted to new email [/url]wherever you're surfing.   [quote][b]

klwerner(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

Hi George,

 I read all four of your recommended  NTSB reports below and they all have to do with pressurizing the  crankcase instead of running a vacuum. In the first one there was a gunked  up separator causing oil starvation, the second had a pinched breather hose, the  third had a plug in the line, and the last one simply froze shut, all of which  caused OVER pressurization instead of a vacuum! 

  

 But how about we meet in the middle  and come up with a win/win solution?  Here we go: Put a  3/4"-3/4"-1/2" *T* in the Engine Breather hose right after the fitting to  top and far way before it goes into the exhaust collector. The 1/2" stays open  just like a whistle slot, the 3/4" connect to the hose. By creating suction with  the exhaust, you pull outside air through the 1/2" hole to mix with the  breather air therefore diluting it and keeping the suction neutral, or only just  very slightly negative. Near neutral pressure at the port should take care  of elevated oil loss worries. And don't worry about clogging up a small 1/8" orifice either, as there  isn't one. And if  a careless mechanic were to block/kink the line like in two of your  NTSB reports, then the engine can still de-pressurize through the 1/2"  whistle slot opening right there next to the case-fitting, unless of  course the mechanic plugged the 1/2" hole with chewing tobacco so no bugs can  get into this oily environment over night.....  I do use my  imagination here as you can see!!!   

  

 Anyway, there are always more then  one way to make things work (and some work better then others). A little  extra weld job does not bother me, and all this talk now made me  even consider putting a breather line scavenger on my Dodge/Cummins  right below the turbo. It has 5.9L/360ci just like a Lycoming, and the  RPM is right there as well (at) 2500...  

  

 Obviously, I am fully with the Acroguy's who have used  augmented scavenging for improved engine performance for a long time. It is not  for everyone though, so  -do not archive -

  

 Konrad

  

  

  

 ---

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

The original poster was trying to keep the oily residue off the belly of his plane. We were brainstorming to figure a way around that. That's why our planes have those wonderful 'EXPERIMENTAL'. decals on them... And to help you learn something , the crankcase evacuation system is used on ALOT of motors, not just drag racers, after all it is a free vacuum source. Simple and inexpensive...  

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 Let me be a little sensational or hype it, you are playing with fire.

  

 Do what ever you want but you are adding weight, build time 

(requires welding) and cost if you buy the (Mororso, Mr. Gasket,  

Jegs, summit) crankcase evacuation systems designed for drag 

racers.

 

What VAN recommends and shows on his plans is placing the 

breather near the outside of the pipe with a angle cut INTO THE 

WIND or facing forward, NOT aft. The air flow in the cowl is not the 

same as inside the exhaust pipe. The key is the angle cut, but why 

change it, if it ain't broke? Just follow plans that came with your RV. 

Call Van and ask them. I think they know something about building 

planes. 

 

The idea is NOT to create suction or vacuum on the end of the 

breather for some perceived increase in HP from reduced oil "Wind-

age". We are talking about a Lyc at 2,500 rpm not a 10,000 rpm drag 

engine. 

 

If you do suck more air out the breather its likely you will suck 

more oil out the engine. You can put "metering pills" in but you really 

are just getting back to what you had outside the pipe. The idea of a 

0.125" orifice scares me. A piece of gunk could block that.

 

YES PUT THE Whistle stop in. A breather blockage could ruin your 

whole day or life. Repeat a Blocked the Breather can Kill You.! 

 

There is no guarantee in life and that is cheap insurance. Read 

these:

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050427X00513&key=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X22309&key=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X09800&key=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X18647&key=1

 



 As far as comments about "I don't know how it can be blocked", I 

say you have little imagination. There's a guy named Murphy that will 

screw you up. Now why would you NOT want a whistle slot? A bug 

or something could block it. You could accidentally pinch it while 

working on the plane previous to the flight...........use your 

imagination.

 

No matter how you vent the crankcase, the health of the engine has 

more to do with the amount of oil going out the breather than the angle 

of the breather tube end or where it's at. What ever you do don't 

cut the breather end square.

 

Follow the PLANS is my advice, simple, light, works, won't freeze as 

some imply.

 

George ATP/CFI-II-ME/RV-4/-7

 

  Get the Yahoo! toolbar and [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48225/*http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php]be alerted to new email [/url]wherever you're surfing. [quote]



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PittsS1(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

have anyone thought about whats proven to work ... or ... what  the hanger gurus think works

  mike



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi George,

I read all four of your recommended NTSB reports below and they all 

have.

   
	


  Konrad: Interesting but a few things.  I did not say or intend that the NTSB examples had anything to do with drag race crank evacuation via exhaust failures or accidents. 

   

  In fact these Drag Vents are just NOT done in most cars. It's made for drag racers with open pipes only. Now I'm not saying in can't or won't work on a little plane, but my point of posting the NTSB reports is, if (Big IF) your crank vent gets blocked for whatever the reason in the exhaust pipe or out of the pipe, it can be BAD. Agree?

   

  Your idea of "Tees" and all kind of stuff just makes me think, why. KISS principle. You know what that is, Keep It Simple Stupid. Keep it light, cheap, simpler, quicker to build and easier  to maintain......and so on. 

   

  I can't see why your idea might not work, but it sounds odd. No offense it just does not sound right off the top of my head, but it may be brilliant. Again I am a KISS principle guy. I fly big jets and have an engineering background, so I appreciate complicated systems and creativity; its just not needed in my opinion. 

   

  My motto or mantra is "Build It Per the Plans".

   

  You have no way you can guarantee your special drag race adapted crank sucker vent into exhaust deal will never get blocked or fail in some way you have not thought of.  Again referring to my first sentence, do what you want, it's experimental.

   

   

   

  Performance: Another point (I am just making up), blocking exhaust pipe flow with a vent may lower engine performance. 

    

  A 1/2" tube sticking into the exhaust pipe, which is what the drag-race kits supply, may lower engine performance. You have to drill that 1/2" hole into the pipe and weld the tube into the exhaust pipe, that extends a good bit into the exhaust flow. Now in a BIG drag race header with +3" tubes it may not be a big deal, we have 1.75" dia exhaust typically.  Our smaller pipe with a 1/2" tube extending into it can't be great for flow, thus HP, at least at high power.

   

  My RV has 4-into-1 with 1.75" pipes going into a 2.25" collector, but the large collector is mostly outside the airplane. A tube hanging off the collector outside the cowl would cause drag and look odd. I just can't see drilling big 1/2" hole into my exhaust pipe, but more power to you. (no pun intended)

   

  Cheers George ATP/CFI-II-ME, MSME, RV4/7, B7375767



        Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.

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mbick(at)carolina.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

Thanks all for the great input and the many perspectives. More as an fyi than expert speak, I initially I ran my breather through the fuselage and used an air/oil separator. What the separator did was act as a condenser putting mostly water back into the crankcase. The separator was mounted on the firewall up high and where it was mounted it remained relatively cool acting as a condenser. The long tube through the fuselage always seemed to be restrictive and if you think about it a long tube could clog for any number of reasons, bugs, gunk…etc. I checked and no clog but restrictive none the less and probably power robbing. Added to that if you think about it Lycoming has a tough time not leaking anyway so why add to Leakcoming’s virtues with high crankcase pressures. Anyway I just received the kit from Summit racing and I am going to do both my Acrosport 1 which has the inverted system and the RV4. I will let you all know how well it does and again thanks for all the input. If you know anyone interested in the Acrosport 1 I am looking to sell it, great little plane I am just ready for a change.    

   

Take care,  

Mike   

   

       [quote][b]

klwerner(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

(WARNING AGAIN & AGAIN, this  one is possibly long winded, hopefully somewhat informative & perhaps  entertaining to some) 

  

 Hi there George (what is your last  name anyway?)

 I've got some spare time this  afternoon to answer your logic, so here it goes:  

  

 Konrad: Interesting but a few things.  I did not say or  intend that the NTSB examples had anything to do with drag race  crank evacuation via exhaust failures or accidents. 

 >> So why bring them up then?  If anyone wants to read any UN-related NTSB reports about someone elses  accidents, then they can do so at will and at their topics of choice.   But you certainly took the time to find these accident reports, and now you say  these reports have nothing to do with the topic we were discussing...   What were you thinking? ...a bit confused?

  

 In fact these Drag Vents are just NOT done in most cars. It's made  for drag racers with open pipes only. 

 >> This statement is so  absolutely NOT true. They are ALSO used in drag racers, as well  as other efficient performance engines of many kinds, including  aviation engines (can you believe that???)  The reason they are not done in  most cars may have more to do with governmentally implied emission control then  anything else.

  

 Now I'm not saying in can't or won't work on a little plane,  but my point of posting the NTSB reports is, if (Big IF) your  crank vent gets blocked for whatever the reason in the exhaust pipe or  out of the pipe, it can be BAD. Agree?

 >> I agree that if the  crankvent get's blocked then you are in for a surprise landing. But we were  talking about the "improvement" of breathing, which is the exact opposite of  what you are talking about...

  

 Your idea of "Tees" and all kind of stuff just makes me think,  why. KISS principle. You know what that is, Keep It Simple Stupid. Keep it  light, cheap, simpler, quicker to build and easier  to maintain......and so on. 

 >> One has to be able  to get a clear understanding of the idea at hand. But  if it is beyond grasp, then I certainly recommend to  follow your rule: Keep It Simple, Stupid...

  

 I can't see why your idea might not work, but it sounds odd. No offense it  just does not sound right off the top of my head, but it may be brilliant.  

 >> I agree with you there,  it sure is a brilliant idea! But I don't think I can take credit for it, as most  of what I have learned throughout live I've highly likely learned from  someone else that went there before me, and I always listen to people  smarter then me when it comes to a subject of interest.  But I can certainly understand that the idea may  sound odd to someone not 100% familiar with the intricate interactive workings  of a liquid fueled internal combustion powerplant that turns flaming hot  air into rotational forces. There are operators, and then there  are Mechanics...  

  

 Again I am a KISS principle guy. I fly big jets and have an  engineering background, so I appreciate complicated systems  and creativity; its just not needed in my opinion. 

 >> You fly big jets, yet  you believe in KISS??? What is simple about complex jets? I don't  know anything about your engineering background, nor do I care, but I have  seen an aeronautical engineer try to cut a piece of sheet metal  stock with a hacksaw once, and it was extremely entertaining for us  all to watch, although the part became unusable for the project we worked  on, so I made a new one for him. Needless to say, he did not earn our  respect, but he knew his formula's. But his calculations took longer then for us  to build the parts with grass roots engineering. Therefore, by you having an engineering background  of whatever kind does not impress me much at all, as many people can  study for a test and pass it without ever gaining a clear understanding of the  subject matter at hand.  However, I do truly care about the Wilbur's,  Orville's, Ben's, Bob's & Rutan type of engineers. True hands-on  Experimenters, ...not bookworms that hide behind a calculator, pen or  PC. 

  

 My motto or mantra is "Build It Per the Plans".

 >> Hmmm, question:  Who drew the plans, and when? If it was a human then I'd like to  know if it was on a grumpy Monday morning after a great weekend, or on  Friday afternoon just before TGIF... And did they like their job and get  along with their Boss, or were they on their way out already anyway? But if  the person drawing the plans was a good engineer, then I bet they had to  experiment to come up with the final plans.

  

 You have no way you can guarantee your special drag race adapted crank  sucker vent into exhaust deal will never get blocked or fail in some way you  have not thought of.  

 >> I am not sure where you get  the notion that I am into drag racing. If you would have paid attention then you  would have figured out that my ideas are more about improving overall engine  performance while at the same time making an engine more fuel efficient. I am  not interested in short burst of power, but rather powerful endurance with  reliablilty.  About any guarantees: The only thing I care to guarantee  you in this life is that death is pretty much unavoidable, ...and taxes of  course.

  

 Again referring to my first sentence, do what you want, it's  experimental.

 >> How come you participate on  these lists anyway? The term "Experimental" does not fit you, and you  discourage experimenting by WARNING people about something that you have never  done, -nor would ever do. So how credible are your  comments really?  How did we ever get to the moon (and  back!!!) or around the world without refueling Voyager?   Hmm...

  

 Performance: Another point (I am just making up), blocking exhaust  pipe flow with a vent may lower engine performance. 

 >> Does it really?  But  how would we know for sure?  There is just one way to find out (and it  is certainly not your way)...

  

 A 1/2" tube sticking into the exhaust pipe, which is what the  drag-race kits supply, may lower engine performance. You have to drill that 1/2"  hole into the pipe and weld the tube into the exhaust pipe, that extends a  good bit into the exhaust flow. Now in a BIG drag race header with +3"  tubes it may not be a big deal, we have 1.75" dia exhaust typically.  Our  smaller pipe with a 1/2" tube extending into it can't be great for  flow, thus HP, at least at high power.

 >> This 1/2" tube all-by-itself  "may" restrict exhaust flow ever so slightly, but once this pipe  is hooked up for scavenging purposes of the crankcase, then the  resultant overall power-increase more then overcomes the cost of doing  business. The same is true for Turbo- &  Superchargers. Can  you imagine the immense exhaust restriction which  the turbine wheel of my Cummins Turbo Diesel poses inside the exhaust  stream of my Dodge Ram. But this allows it to exert energy from an  otherwise wasted source of dirty hot air and then it actually turns this nearly  gone energy into boost to feed that bitchin' motor with compressed air, thereby  increasing its output immensely. And the Cummins boys only found that out by  (dare I say it...) EXPERIMENTING with their engines!  Can you tell  that I love my Cummins, ...especially when it is singing under full boost  going uphill whilst accelerating with a heavy load towed  behind.

  

 My RV has 4-into-1 with 1.75" pipes going into a 2.25" collector, but  the large collector is mostly outside the airplane. A tube hanging off  the collector outside the cowl would cause drag and look odd. I just  can't see drilling big 1/2" hole into my exhaust pipe, but more power to  you. (no pun intended)

 >> You must be kidding me, you  actually have 4>1 headers on your plane and don't use it to create  vacuum!  That is so sad & even shameful...  Let me know  when your RV-4 comes up for sale, as it may be a decent platform  to get started with hotrodding... you know, the dangerous  kind!!!  It is never too late to improve that little sucker (no pun  intended either)

  

 Cheers George ATP/CFI-II-ME, MSME, RV4/7, B7375767  (Is that the new Boeing  Triple-Decker?)

  

 Konrad  (definitely NOT an  ATPCFIIIMEMSMERV4/7B7375767KISS kinda guy). 

   

 Now have yourself a nice Sunday, and  don't take my opinions too personal.



  

 Disclaimer: No one should try to  modify any engine or its associated systems, unless they have a  clear understanding of the potential consequences these modifications may  result in !!!

  

   [quote][b]

matronics(at)cencula.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

On Sunday June 10 2007 03:22 pm, Konrad L. Werner wrote:

<long flamewar snipped> 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Disclaimer: No one should try to modify any engine or its associated

 systems, unless they have a clear understanding of the potential

 consequences these modifications may result in !!!


	


So after reading all this, I've got a few questions:

1. What is the breather for? (my guess would be just to keep the crankcase 

from getting pressurized?)

2. Why does oil come out of it? (atomized oil working it's way out?)

3. Why is it bad if the crankcase gets pressurized? (pressure forcing oil out 

of the crankshaft / bearing interface?...which could cause the crank to sieze 

up?)



Thanks,



Mike

kboatright1(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

---

december29(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

[quote] ---

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:15 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "John Porter" <december29(at)bellsouth.net (december29(at)bellsouth.net)> 

Subject: Re: Breather run into exhaust (warning again) 

  >blaaa blaaa blaaa blaaa blaaa and blaaa.

No comment, but did notice a couple of pot shots & stupid insults. 

That's just rude, snide and un-gentlemanly rhetoric. It indicates 

how weak your technical argument is when you go to personal 

attacks. I have little respect for that.

  If you want to add something that is not needed, adds weight and  

blocks the free flow of your exhaust, ace, fine. Do IT and just shut 

up about it.

You throw out all kind of "facts" but don't support it:

What factory planes have crank-case exhaust vent systems? 

What is the benefit? 

Less wind-age?  

  ......Prove it. 

It's not a matter of  understanding the super-wonder-crank-vent- 

exhaust-tee-system, so I challenge you: 

-Draw it up,  

-Make it,  

-Fight test it and  

-Publish the results and design 

Convince me and everyone all the weight, cost, fabrication time is  

worth it, not to mention adding an exhaust restriction.

What is the design? An off the shelf  Moroso / Mr. Gasket set up,  

home-grown set up with a "0.125" pill? Tell me. Crank vent is a  

critical system so you better be right. Since YOU are telling other  

builders to do something that affects SAFETY, I am all ears. You  

are the big man telling everyone how great this is and safe, so 

prove it. I'm not as smart as you, so when you have 1000 hours 

on it, write me and I'll do it. In the mean time I'll have my simple 

vent crank vent system the puts little or no oil on the belly.

  What is the  inches of water in the crank, vent and pipe at full 

power sea level and WOT at 16,000 feet. You better put your 

engineer hat on before you tell people what to do that is 180 

degrees from the standard.

  Never said is would not work or has zero value, but is it needed? 

Does it really reduce oil on the belly? I bet at altitude with LOW 

temps, low air pressure and high velocity exhaust it may just spit 

more oil out further down the belly. May be it's the best thing 

ever! so drill 1/2" holes in your pipe because some dude "John 

Porter" says do it, but he has never done it himself. So I'm the 

dumb one for not jumping on this break-through.

That is what I thought. Doha!

Sorry if I offend you because I am keeping my vent like most of 

the other 5,000 RV's and +250,000 piston plane crank vents 

around the world, and I highly recommend all do the same, KISS. 

Last, only smart  people under stand the KISS principle. Simple 

designs are best. Any professional designer will tell you that its 

more elegant to make it simple, not more compacted because you 

can. Every ounce weight has to earn its way onto my plane. This 

is why builders end up with 1,200 lb empty weight RV's.

Wise man said: "Build it per the plans, keep it simple & light." 

Cheers George RV-4/RV-7

PS: 7375767 is short hand for B737, B757, B767, a few

current type ratings.

        Got a little couch potato? 

 Check out fun [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48248/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz]summer activities for kids.[/url] [quote][b]

lsbrv7a(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

Geroge, I'm sorry, but you have missed the point. 

gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com wrote:   	  Quote: 	
		    >From: "John Porter" <december29(at)bellsouth.net (december29(at)bellsouth.net)> 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Subject: Re: Breather run into exhaust (warning again) 

  >blaaa blaaa blaaa blaaa blaaa and blaaa.

No comment, but did notice a couple of pot shots & stupid insults. 

That's just rude, snide and un-gentlemanly rhetoric. It indicates 

how weak your technical argument is when you go to personal 

attacks. I have little respect for that.

  If you want to add something that is not needed, adds weight and  

blocks the free flow of your exhaust, ace, fine. Do IT and just shut 

up about it.

  Do not archive

Sherman Butler

RV-7a Wings

Idaho Falls

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gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

No I did not miss the point. 

The point is if you suck on the crankcase you will change the way the 

rings seat and possibly cause greater friction and less oil flow, 

increasing wear. That is what drag racers use it for, to increase ring 

seating pressure. I did not know my Lycoming needed that. (does not)

You missed the point that some one said "wind-age" or oil spray will 

be reduced and this will make more HP (they guess but I doubt it). A 

Lycoming relies on oil splash or "wind-age" to lubricate the cam and 

the accessory gears to name a few items. Do you want to suck more 

air out and reduce the oil mist in the engine? (no, I want my cam lubed)

The point someone made about kind of matching what a stock vent 

would do with a Tee and valves. WHY? If you are not going to pull 

down the pressure or create a vacuum in the crankcase (verses the 

slight positive pressure we now have)  than WHY DO IT? (please tell me)

Do what you like, accept or ignore my opinion or concerns and leave 

off the snide personal comments, thanks.  I think you Mr. Butler 

should put it on your plane; run a big garden hose into your exhaust 

pipe thru a 1/2" hole. By the way you will possibly block up to 20% of 

you exhaust with the vent tube protruding in there. EGP (exhaust gas 

pressure), pressure wave and savaging will be affected. May be a 

small amount but the super suck vent will make so much power, I 

was told, it would be like a "turbo-charger". Right, good luck.

  I'm not against experiments; take some data and let everyone know 

the gain you got. I say you will add weight, complexity and it'll do 

nothing special to justify its use. Also no one can prove its safe. I 

heard of a 0.125" dia "pill"? If that is an orifice for the crank vent, 

than that does not sound good, as it could easily  be blocked. May 

be I missed the point. The final point is there is NO DESIGN or

standard for this concept, just words and guessing. If some one 

has a proven design, whether off the shelf drag race stuff or home 

made, than they should test it and than present their findings. Never 

said DON'T do it; I am not an authoritarian; I'm liberal, in that you are 

free to do as you like; I JUST WANT FOLKS TO BE SAFE and that 

is the POINT. I've been around airplanes long enough to know, you 

better have a good reason for fixing something that is not broke.

  I'd feel bad if someone busted their derrière & I didn't say something.

Cheers George

  >Time: 08:03:24 PM PST US

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Sherman Butler lsbrv7a(at)yahoo.com (lsbrv7a(at)yahoo.com)

  >Subject: Re: Re: Breather run into exhaust (warning  again)

 	  Quote: 	

George, I'm sorry, but you have missed the point. 

>gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com wrote:  

>

>Subject: Re: Breather run into exhaust (warning again) 

> 

>blaaa blaaa blaaa blaaa blaaa and blaaa.

>   

>No comment, but did notice a couple of pot shots & stupid insults. 

>That's just rude, snide and un-gentlemanly rhetoric. It indicates 

>how weak your technical argument is when you go to personal 

>attacks. I have little respect for that.

Sherman Butler

RV-7a Wings

Idaho Falls

        Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48253/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC]Internet in your pocket:[/url] mail, news, photos & more.  [quote][b]

klwerner(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

Dear someone out there without a  Last Name,

  

 I can't resist to ask a question:  What did a Mr. John Porter say to you for you to say the following  about him:

  

 >>...because some dude "John Porter" says do it, but  he has never done it himself...<<  (just see  below)

  

 I was following this thread very  closely, but have to admit that I may have missed Mr. Porters comments to  you. 

  

 PLEASE  DO  fill me in on  what he said to you for you to respond to him the way you did,  IF YOU  CAN ???  Thanks G...

  

 Sincerely, 

 Konrad  (definitely NOT an ATPCFIIIMEMSMERV4/7B7375767KISS  kinda guy). 

  

 [quote]   ---

lsbrv7a(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

George,

  If I was really concerned, perhaps a mission profie of around the world no-stop, I would calculate an exhaust velocity based on rpm, displacement and temperature change, to develop a pressure profile and a estimate of the effect on crankcase pressure.  Perhaps You can do this using the scrabble after your name rather than throw rocks.   I am pleased that as an ATP you have "the sky is falling" approach to his passengers' safety.  When I get to this point on my airplane I will review my options.

   

  I however, am loading the G-35 to camp overnight at U87 with my sweetie.  That is what is important to me.

  



Do  Not archive

Sherman Butler

RV-7a Wings

Idaho Falls

        Looking for a deal? [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=47094/*http://farechase.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFicDJoNDllBF9TAzk3NDA3NTg5BHBvcwMxMwRzZWMDZ3JvdXBzBHNsawNlbWFpbC1uY20-]Find great prices on flights and hotels[/url] with Yahoo! FareChase. [quote][b]

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

What? 

   

      >"Perhaps You can do this using the scrabble after your name

    > rather than throw rocks.   I am pleased that as an ATP you have 

    >"the sky is falling" approach to his passengers' safety.  When I 

    >get to this point on my airplane I will review my options."

   

  I am not throwing any stones. Me? What is wrong with you people? 

First Konrad Werner or Wiener spews a mass BS rant rave void of 

facts now you. I just am sticking to the facts. I love new RV builders.

 

  It's a disease with new builders, they are suckers for any gadget.

  

I brought up legate concern and my opinion, I think it's a bad idea. 

Deal with it. Your sarcasm is noted, but you still can't tell me what it 

offers over the stock design, besides some rant.

   

    

      >"If I was really concerned, perhaps a mission profie of around the 

    >world no-stop, I would calculate an exhaust velocity based on 

    >rpm, displacement and temperature change, to develop a 

    >pressure profile and a estimate of the effect on crankcase 

    >pressure.

  

 

  Based on the fact you are working on your wings I'm pretty sure you 

never have installed an engine on a RV before. May be you should 

learn something first. Not sure where you're going, but it sounds like 

you suspect more oil loss? (more oil loss is likely with suction)



The bottom line is it offers nil improvement over the RV engine 

installation plan's, which probably you've never seen yet. What has 

been suggested will be more involved, probably weigh more, cost 

more and take more time to  fabricate and install. Are you going to 

use a drag race back flow valve? If you have something smart to say 

than say it, other wise you sound churlish and foolish; geee, you are 

welcome. Is it possible I have a point? You'll learn I guess later?

 

I have researched it, called Moroso and Lycoming. At least I bring 

some facts to the discussion and not just rhetoric and personal 

attacks. You may not like my opinion, fine, but to attack me because 

I make my living flying makes you sound, juvenile and ridiculous.

 

I helped one guy at the airport with his RV. At one time we had over 

20 flying RV's at one field, so we all got lots of experience with RV's. 

We also did formation flying and dog fighting, great fun. Well this guy 

was losing oil and lots of it. I looked at his plane and saw his vent 

tube was not cut at an angle. So I beveled the vent tube at an approx 

30-45 degree angle, into the airflow or  forward, per Van's plan's, 

and that solved it. (please do not write and tell me the 45 goes 

down stream of the free air flow, you're wrong). Get some finishing 

plans. I suspect many EXPERTS out there throwing temper tantrums 

have never finished a RV or flown one more than once or twice. I 

have about 1,200 hours in RV's, so there, I do know more than you.

 

Writing I'm an ATP, fly jets and graduate degree in engineering

brings out all the haters. That kind of bigotry, prejudice and 

  ignorance has no place in an intellectual discussion. To make 

  assumptions of my life experience is really quite ignorant. You don't 

  know me. Frankly as petty, rude and immature some of you all 

  sound, I don't want to know you. 

   

  Many engineers come from a strong mechanical background, that 

  is why they choose the profession. Clearly it is not  for the love. It's 

  definitely a difficult curriculum, math, physics, materials, mechanism, 

  design, chemistry, fluid dynamics, statics, dynamics, electrical,

  vibrations, fatigue, fracture mechanics, composites, manufacturing and 

  many more general and elective courses. However I was building cars, 

  motorcycles and electronics well before I went to engineering school. 

  The sad thing is many have no clue what engineers do, which breeds 

  contempt. Also not everything is "designed" by engineers. On the 

  other hand there are creative people with little education.

  

I don't claim my resume makes me right, but I have built two RV's 

and helped build and finish several more; I've been at it over 20 

years, starting my first RV in the mid 80's when I was in my 20's. 

One of my RV's, I am proud to say won a workmanship award at the  

EAA fly-in. I had just finished painting it, and it was pretty. That same 

plane also beat out higher HP RV's in a spruce aircraft cross country 

race. I have been a mechanic, built engines (planes, cars, bikes), 

even worked in a shipyard as a ship-fitter to get money for college. 

So I do more the crunch numbers and "throw stones". I just don't

understand the hate and jealousy, its immature man. Grow up. 

   

  Flying is a small community and I am the kind of guy that would go 

out of my way to help you if you needed it. Most people in aviation 

and especially experimental planes are nice. Sadly as it gets more 

common, the folks with attitudes come in and just can't be told 

anything. I wish I was as smart as you when I started out over 20 

years go building planes FOR FUN. It is suppose to be fun, relax.

   

  

    >I would calculate a <snip>  pressure profile and a estimate of the 

    >effect on crankcase pressure.

  

 

  Do you know that the normal crank case pressure is in a Lycoming? I 

do I've measured it. 

   

  Do you know how to measure it? I do, and its real cool. 



   

  I am all ears now; what is the pressure based on exhaust velocity 

going to be? Frankly you can directly and easily measure it. I would 

use a RV and go up and flight test it, measure it right off the crank 

and exhaust. Of course the BUNG you use in the pipe will have huge 

affect on the suction you pull, not to mention how far down the pipe it 

is to the exit. One cylinder or past a collector? Lots to think about.



   

  I want to see someones design. Draw it up, scan it, post it to a free 

picture file-share site and post the URL. I want to see how great it is, 

not to throw  stones but to learn or may be copy it, if its brilliant. 



   

  I also like to know what "extra HP" you get. As far as keeping the belly 

clean, I doubt it would improve that. A healthy Lyc blurbs little oil out 

the breather. Again like a broke record the stock set up works well, 

so why change it. Sorry if I am using logic again, its not fair I know.

  

I'm not going to apologize for cautioning builders to be careful. When 

it comes to engines, flight controls, structures and critical systems 

like fuel systems, I am very conservative. Again DO WHAT YOU 

LIKE. Ignore me and just do it. I don't know what your problem is. 



   

  You all are like a fanatic that demands I must accept their belief. I 

don't accept it or do I care what you do any more. According to mr. 

wiener its going to gain all kinds of HP like a "turbo charger". Right, 

OK, that's  nice. Prove it. Really it's just BS frankly and I laugh, ha ha.



  

For those who do make this modified vent system and want to use a 

scientific approach, taking some empirical data, I can help.  I have 

ideas for any interested person; you can write me off list. However if 

all you're going to do is whine and cry like a baby because I'm not 

thrilled with the idea, your jealous of "college boys" or pilots with

ATP's and type ratings, than don't write, you're wasting my time

time and everyone else's on the list. I have other people I can help 

who do appreciate it. Send your hate mail direct, so I can really tell 

you what I think of you or ignore it, but don't jug up the list with spew. 

   

   

  >I however, am loading the G-35 to camp overnight at U87 

 	  Quote: 	
		  with my sweetie.  That is what is important to me. 


	


  

** Look at your Bonanza vent and tell me what  you see. **

   

  Flown all over Idaho, spent many a day at Johnson creek 3U2 in my

RV camping with my "sweetie". I use to fly for Horizon Air.



  

Cheers George (last name withheld because its none of your business)

 

 

  

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a(at)yahoo.com (lsbrv7a(at)yahoo.com)> 

Subject: Re: Breather run into exhaust (warning again) 

 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  George, 

If I was really concerned, perhaps a mission profie of around the 

world no-stop, I would calculate an exhaust velocity based on rpm, 
	


displacement and temperature change, to develop a pressure profile 

and a estimate of the effect on crankcase pressure.  Perhaps You 

can do this using the scrabble after your name rather than throw 

rocks.   I am pleased that as an ATP you have "the sky is falling" 

approach to his passengers' safety.   When I get to this point on my 

airplane I will review my options.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I however, am loading the G-35 to camp overnight at U87 

with my sweetie.  That is what is important to me. 

 

 

Do  Not archive 

 

Sherman Butler 

RV-7a Wings 

Idaho Falls


	


  [quote][b]

PittsS1(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

rv wings ... with you  experience its easy ... get a  life



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

While I have made a ton of friends and probably a few enemies on this 

list and also got to be friends with Matt, our list administrator

while testing his fantastic FuelScan unit I think the useful life of the 

list has come to an end for me. I built my RV-6 and made the first flight on

 July 14 1989. There are so many beautiful airplanes and neat ideas now 

that were not thought of when I was building, and the kits have changed

drastically over the last twenty years. My RV-6 would be considered 

archaic by today's standards so for me to have helpful hints for today's 

builders

as a previous builder is not as feasible as it use to be. I have 

probably stayed longer than I would have if I did not have so much 

respect for Matt Dralle

and the tremendous amount of work he puts into these lists. As the 

internet has grown over the years there are many resources available to 

builders

so getting any information I may need the future is not a problem.



I am really sorry to see how the information on the list has many time 

turned into long threads about things other than RV's, that have no use 

to me whatsoever.

I am really busy now in the process of getting two homes ready to sell 

and to start a new life with my "sweetheart"



So for the time being anyway I am going to unsubscribe from the RV-List.



Hope to see a lot of you at Arlington EAA flyin this July, if you are 

there come by and say hello.



Don't kill each other over things said on this  list, life is to short.



Signing off



Jerry

klwerner(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

Dear George whoever,

  

 You still have not answered my  question:  What did a Mr. John  Porter say to you for you to say the following about him:  

  

 >>...because some dude "John Porter" says do it, but  he has never done it himself...<<  

  

 PLEASE DO fill me in on what he  said to you for you to respond to him the way you did, IF YOU  CAN??? 

  

 Most sincerely, 

 Konrad

  

 P.S.  

 My last name was always  clearly disclosed, contrary to yours...  Need new  glasses to read properly???

  



 [quote]   ---

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:24 am Post subject: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Konrad L. Werner" <klwerner(at)comcast.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Breather run into exhaust (warning again)

You still have not answered my question:  What did a Mr. John Porter 

say to you for you to say the following about him: 

  I am ignoring you mr wiener, but my post was actually for and about you, not John Porter. It was a typo. My apologize to Mr. Porter, who just cut and pasted your rant and rave. I generally don't answer rude dolts, but I'll make an exception for you.

  What is wrong with you? Do you want credit or something? You posted this twice? Are you john porters mommy? Do you want me to acknowledge you? OK, you are foolish and really say  ignorant things based on bigotry and prejudice so there. Are you happy now? I really have nothing else to say to you because you clearly have nothing intelligent or technical to say or add. Why would I bother responding to you and wasting my time.

  If you like send me an email off-list and really tell me off and how smart you are, fine, but as Jerry said, for the list, keep it on topic and friendly. Good advice and suggest you take it. If you could come up with a fact and actual personal experience as I have, that would be great. By the way have you ever built a RV or any plane? Have you flown a RV before? Are you even a pilot? Ahaa I don't care, never mind, have a nice weekend, nothing personal. 

  Cheers George

  do not archive

   Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels 

in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. [quote][b]

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