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Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

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John Bickham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 170
Location: St. Francisville, LA

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

Need help with this one.



A local friend of mine purchased a Kolb Mark IIIC.  I think the previous owner was the former partners of the TNK.  I'm terrible with names but I remember he was a big old boy.  I think I remember him flying this plane at the first TNK homecoming I went to.



Anyway, this Mark IIIC will not turn right in straight and level cruise.  The stick moves easily to the left but takes two hands to move it a even a little bit to the right. If you put the plane in a climb or a descent, it unloads the problem and allows the stick to move to the right.  



I've looked it over and see no obvious problem.  I noticed that the center line of the elevator hinge on the left side is not exactly centered with the pivot bolt. Off about a 1/8" I suggested getting that aligned and tightening the cables a bit.



If anyone has faced this problem or has suggestions, it would be greatly appreciated.

_________________
Thanks too much,

John Bickham
Mark III-C w/ 912UL
St. Francisville, LA

I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that I have the greatest respect for.

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 5:14 am Post subject: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

John,



   There didn't seem to be too many responses to your dilemma, so I thought 

I would make a suggestion.  Verify the following:



                   Take a look at the pivot hinges for the ailerons.   Are 

they bOTH oriented in the same direction?   Meaning....the pivoting action 

of the hinge, are they both UP, or both down??



                                Just an idea,    Mike in SW Utah (who didn't 

make it to MV, I'm sorry to say!!

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "John Bickham" <gearbender(at)bellsouth.net>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 17:12:53 -0700






Need help with this one.



A local friend of mine purchased a Kolb Mark IIIC.  I think the previous 

owner was the former partners of the TNK.  I'm terrible with names but I 

remember he was a big old boy.  I think I remember him flying this plane at 

the first TNK homecoming I went to.



Anyway, this Mark IIIC will not turn right in straight and level cruise.  

The stick moves easily to the left but takes two hands to move it a even a 

little bit to the right. If you put the plane in a climb or a descent, it 

unloads the problem and allows the stick to move to the right.



I've looked it over and see no obvious problem.  I noticed that the center 

line of the elevator hinge on the left side is not exactly centered with 

the pivot bolt. Off about a 1/8" I suggested getting that aligned and 

tightening the cables a bit.



If anyone has faced this problem or has suggestions, it would be greatly 

appreciated.



--------

Thanks too much,



John Bickham

Mark III-C

&quot;Using my Repairman Certificate&quot;

St. Francisville, LA



Do Not Archive





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113488#113488






	


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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:42 am Post subject: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

Not a clue.

So here's some questions to get things started.

Does it fly pretty much straight and level without effort, does it only take 

minimal pressure to keep it flying straight?

If so, what sort of rigging does it have to make it fly straight? What are 

it's current rigging adjustments?

Does it have a tendency to turn left anyway?

What is the prop rotation?

Does if turn equally well either way power off?

Does it turn equally well either way in a full power climb?

Does it always break off to one side in a stall?

Are the flaps rigged the same, or is there differential in their droop or 

angle?

Not sure what I am looking for, just fishing.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

do not archive

---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

What you describe sounds strange, but if description of the proplem is very accurate, this sounds like a control system jamming problem to me.  Espeically given that the stick frees up when you climb or descend, it sounds like it may be taking some load off the control system allowing it to move.  I would check to make sure that the bushings that the aileron control tube go through are well greased and free.   On the ground, have two people put a little up force on BOTH ailerons at the same time, then see if the stick moves left and right freely.  Then have them put some down force and see if you feel any binding in the stick.  Then check every part of the aileron control system that could possibly jam under load.



The elevator problem you describe should not cause a roll jam as you describe, it is most likely un related.



Attached is a picture of the area I am talking about, this loads up with a lot of downforce in flight, and needs to be well greased through the holes in the bushing.   Good luck and let us know what you find.



Mike

UltralightMikeKolbDetail1.JPG

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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

Since the description of the solution, climbing or descending, didn't mention actually unloading the system, i.e. pulling negative or positive G's, but rather movement of the stick, I'm guessing the problem lies in the mixer mechanism at the bottom of the stick. I agree with Mike, it sounds like a mechanical jamming. If you have access to a stethescope you might try listening to all the areas mentioned to check for any slight clicking or grinding sounds as you move the stick. 



Rick



On 5/20/07, JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)>



What you describe sounds strange, but if description of the proplem is very accurate, this sounds like a control system jamming problem to me.  Espeically given that the stick frees up when you climb or descend, it sounds like it may be taking some load off the control system allowing it to move.  I would check to make sure that the bushings that the aileron control tube go through are well greased and free.   On the ground, have two people put a little up force on BOTH ailerons at the same time, then see if the stick moves left and right freely.  Then have them put some down force and see if you feel any binding in the stick.  Then check every part of the aileron control system that could possibly jam under load. 



The elevator problem you describe should not cause a roll jam as you describe, it is most likely un related.



Attached is a picture of the area I am talking about, this loads up with a lot of downforce in flight, and needs to be well greased through the holes in the bushing.   Good luck and let us know what you find. 



Mike



--------

"NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!





Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=113867#113867





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when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

<< Anyway, this Mark IIIC will not turn right in straight and level

cruise.  From: "John Bickham" >>

John B - 



I just ordered an "Adjustable Wing Attachment U-Joint" from TNK for a

similar (but not as bad!) problem.  My Mark-III always wants bank to the

left, so I must hold constant right stick to counteract.  I attached a

bungee to the stick, pulling it right (a-la John H), and that took care

of the problem.



Saw one of these on John Williamson's Kolbra at Monument Valley this

past weekend.  It allows you to adjust the height of the rear wing

attachment point.  By adjusting the trailing edge of one wing up or

down, you can bring the bottom planes of your wings back into alignment.

Only need one, pick your wing.  This may solve your problem. 



Looking straight-on at my airplane one day recently, standing just in

front of the nosecone, I made visual comparisons of the flatness

(planes) of the bottoms of both wings.  I could see then that my right

wing had a slightly greater angle of attack than the left wing.  This

explains the left turning tendency.  I'll report my results after I

install the adjustable U-joint.



Dennis Kirby

Cedar Crest, NM

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

Dennis -



I too had this problem, and the adjustable U was definitely the cure!



  -- Robert



Do not archive



On 5/21/07, Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>





 << Anyway, this Mark IIIC will not turn right in straight and level

 cruise.  From: "John Bickham" >>

 John B -



 I just ordered an "Adjustable Wing Attachment U-Joint" from TNK for a

 similar (but not as bad!) problem.  My Mark-III always wants bank to the

 left, so I must hold constant right stick to counteract.  I attached a

 bungee to the stick, pulling it right (a-la John H), and that took care

 of the problem.



 Saw one of these on John Williamson's Kolbra at Monument Valley this

 past weekend.  It allows you to adjust the height of the rear wing

 attachment point.  By adjusting the trailing edge of one wing up or

 down, you can bring the bottom planes of your wings back into alignment.

 Only need one, pick your wing.  This may solve your problem.



 Looking straight-on at my airplane one day recently, standing just in

 front of the nosecone, I made visual comparisons of the flatness

 (planes) of the bottoms of both wings.  I could see then that my right

 wing had a slightly greater angle of attack than the left wing.  This

 explains the left turning tendency.  I'll report my results after I

 install the adjustable U-joint.



 Dennis Kirby

 Cedar Crest, NM

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

John B,



It is vitally important that you give a completely accurate description of what is going on ( Not second or third hand information ).  Getting one detail wrong, or forgetting to tell something could indicate a completely different problem.



The U Joint would fix a trim problem, that is a constant turn to the left, and having to hold a lot of right stick to just hold it straight and level.  If you are out of trim that bad, it would be downright scarey to fly, as you would be constantly fighting just to keep your plane level, with the plane turning to the left all by itself and very hard turning to the right...  An out of trim problem gets worse with speed, and harder to counteract, so from your description I dont think this is the problem.



If the plane flys more or less level on its own, and is just hard to turn to the right when you want to, indicates a jam, not an out of trim problem.    The out of trim probelm would definately be more common, but your description definately indicated a jam rather than trim problem.  Recheck your facts, and note exactly what the symptoms to accurately diagnose this problem.



Mike Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

Is it possible that the turn effort changes with speed? Since you mentioned that it is easier in a climb or descent, is it also a function of airspeed? Is it easier when flying slow, and harder when flying fast?



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

John Bickham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 170
Location: St. Francisville, LA

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 3:41 am Post subject: Re: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

Sorry for the delayed response.  I work shift work so I go a few days without reading e-mail.



Appreciate the responses and suggestions.



Sorry left out a few key facts.  This plane does have the dual stick option.  Several have suggested a jam on this system. 



Plane has a 912S with prop rotation CCW looking forward



On the ground all controls move freely.  Problem only shows up in straight and level cruise.



This problem is much worse than the Kolb constant roll to the left that requires backpressure to the right.  You literally can not move the stick to the right when S & L.  And yes, I was scared.  Scared that something was going to give before the stick moved.



Gonna go through all the suggestions one by one and let you know what we find.



By the by, my plane flies great.  Can fly hands off now for extended periods.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

Any way you can load pressure on the fuselage/motor mounts to simulate 

engine thrust and torque and then see what the controls do?



Richard Pike

MKIIi N420P (420ldPoops)



---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Bickham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 170
Location: St. Francisville, LA

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level=Update

Just heard from my buddy this afternoon while I was cutting the grass on the runway.



He flew his plane recently and the problem has been fixed.  I had been suggesting that he tighten up his tail cables and he did it a couple of times, just never tight enough.  Finally, got them tight enough and problem solved.



Thanks for the suggestions.

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

Hey John,

   Just a few days ago I asked for an update regarding this problem your 

friend was having.  Thanks for the update.   I was truly curious to know if 

he got it figured out.  Evidently, he has, but I don't quite understand his 

solution, tho.   You're saying, he tightened the cables to the rudder and 

elevator and THAT fixed his problem??   I thought it was incredibly 

difficult to turn right due to some stick control/aileron situation.   Could 

you explain more precisely what the problem and solution was?  I really am 

interested...so I don't encounter any ailments like these myself.

                                                                          

Appreciate it,  Mike in SW Utah

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "John Bickham" <gearbender(at)bellsouth.net>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:06:02 -0700






Just heard from my buddy this afternoon while I was cutting the grass on 

the runway.



He flew his plane recently and the problem has been fixed.  I had been 

suggesting that he tighten up his tail cables and he did it a couple of 

times, just never tight enough.  Finally, got them tight enough and problem 

solved.



Thanks for the suggestions.



--------

Thanks too much,



John Bickham

Mark III-C

&quot;Using my Repairman Certificate&quot;

St. Francisville, LA



Do Not Archive





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121266#121266






	


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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

You're saying, he tightened the cables to the rudder and

| elevator and THAT fixed his problem??    |

| Appreciate it,  Mike in SW Utah

Mike:



He tightened up the tail wires.  Most folks fly around with them loose 

as a clothes line.  They need to be tight enough to twang like a 

guitar string.  There is a lot of activity going on back there, and 

loose tail wires agrevate problems.



Here is what John B said:



"I had been

 	  Quote: 	
		  suggesting that he tighten up his tail cables and he did it a couple 

of

times, just never tight enough.  Finally, got them tight enough and 

problem

solved."


	


Here is how I check to see if my tail wires are tight enough for me.



1-Grab the leading edge of either horizontal stabilizer with one hand, 

and the leading edge of the upper vertical stabilizer with the other.



2-Now..........try to pull the two leading edges together.  In the 

process of pulling them together, if the wire at the station you are 

pulling goes slack, to me, that indicates it needs to be tightened up 

to the point that it will not sag when a pretty good pull is put on 

the system.



john h

mkIII with tight tail wires.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Bickham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 170
Location: St. Francisville, LA

Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Mark IIIC won't turn right in straight and level

Hey Mike in Utah,



Yep, it is fixed.  I know it sounds strange that tightening up the cables that brace the tail feathers fixed a roll problem.  Kolbers that fold their tale on any frequency may have witnessed this to some degree.



Basic deal is the controls (pitch and roll) are intergrated into the stick.  The way the elevator hinge and arm system work at the tail necessitates that both horizontal stabilizers be lined up pretty close to the center of the pivot point and perpindicular.  Having the folding option and the design that necessitates it is what contributes to the problem.  If one or both of the horizontal stabilizers/elevetors are allowed to move up or down it can put the sitck in a bind. 



I know it don't sound right.  But you can test it yourself the next time you cables are loose for inspection or maintenance.  Move one or both of the horizontal stabilizers up or down a bit.  Brace it or have someone hold them.  Then try to move the stick fore/aft, left/right.  You will notice the stick won't move much off center.  At least that was my experience when I was folding because I was jamming a C-172 into a hanger with my Kolb. 



The C-172 was for my daughter to build hours in for an Aviation Degree.  Changed to Air Traffic Controller in the Air Force.  Stationed at Hill AFB just north of SLC, Utah.  Was real glad to sell that big tank C-172.  May look you up on one of the visits.



Hope this is helpful.

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