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airvair601(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: 601 dual time

I have run into a challenge that I assume happens to other first time builders who are low time pilots.  I’ve not flown much since 2002 and am very rusty.  Most of my hobby resources have been put toward building.  I have been trying to find away to get training in some HDS like machine.  People have recommended a Grumman Yankee and there are not very many (none for rent) near me.  I am concerned that when I get ready to fly the liability insurance companies may require some minimal   time in 601.  Then I called Zenith to try and get a list of local flying aircraft and have had some  success at contacting people.  But the issue is what to ask for.  I doubt any sane person is going to let me fly their airplane solo. Then, after ready the July issue of Sport Aviation page 122 under building basics,  I had an idea.  The article is questions and answers, most surrounding sport pilot and who can log time,    There is a discussion of 14 CFR 61.5(e)(1), which state that  if you are in an aircraft for which you are rated and the sole manipulator of the control, you can log time (i.e., PIC time), even if you are not PIC for the flight.  If I have this correct, then any homebuilder who has an aircraft and who can act as PIC ( i.e., current with  landings, BFR, Medical if necessary) , can act as PIC ( and unofficial flight instructor) for any other pilot who is rated for that aircraft even if the other pilot has no Medical or BFR, so longs as  the “student Pilot”  is the sole manipulator of the controls.  Of courses the guy acting as PIC has all the liability risks.  I assume so long as this is not being done for carriage the “student” would be allow to cover half the expenses of the flight.  It would be an easy say that the student, (perhaps riding pilot would be a better term) provided the fuel and oil and the owner provided engine depreciation.  Thus if I am reading the regs correctly, home-builders could help each other simply by sharing rides.   Both reduce their cost, make new friends and the less experienced guy is provided a way of getting, documenting experience in a very similar aircraft, and the owner-builder of the aircraft being flown is always in the plane to lend a hand.

  <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

  I know I have a very selfish motives for this now as I would be the “beggar” pilot, but if we could do more of this kind of thing I believe we could reduce first flight accidents even more.. Plus I am betting flying with fellow builders is a blast.

   

  phill



        Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 

[url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48223/*http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow]Play Monopoly Here and Now[/url] (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. [quote][b]

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: 601 dual time

I read the same article and was wondering the same thing.  I'm not so sure about sharing the cost.  In strict terms cost sharing is only allowed if the pilot and passenger have the same destination and the pilot would be going to this location regardless of whether the passenger was along or not.  Sorry, I don't remember where I read this.  This seems to indicate that sharing the cost of going up and flying around for a while may not be allowable.  But then I never would have guessed the PIC regs could be interpreted the as indicated in the article.



Ron

On Jun 30, 2007, at 12:58 PM, 601corvair wrote:

[quote]I have run into a challenge that I assume happens to other first time builders who are low time pilots.  I’ve not flown much since 2002 and am very rusty.  Most of my hobby resources have been put toward building.  I have been trying to find away to get training in some HDS like machine.  People have recommended a Grumman Yankee and there are not very many (none for rent) near me.  I am concerned that when I get ready to fly the liability insurance companies may require some minimal   time in 601.  Then I called Zenith to try and get a list of local flying aircraft and have had some success at contacting people.  But the issue is what to ask for.  I doubt any sane person is going to let me fly their airplane solo. Then, after ready the July issue of Sport Aviation page 122 under building basics,  I had an idea.  The article is questions and answers, most surrounding sport pilot and who can log time,    There is a discussion of 14 CFR 61.5(e)(1), which state that  if you are in an aircraft for which you are rated and the sole manipulator of the control, you can log time (i.e., PIC time), even if you are not PIC for the flight.  If I have this correct, then any homebuilder who has an aircraft and who can act as PIC ( i.e., current with landings, BFR, Medical if necessary) , can act as PIC ( and unofficial flight instructor) for any other pilot who is rated for that aircraft even if the other pilot has no Medical or BFR, so longs as  the “student Pilot”  is the sole manipulator of the controls.  Of courses the guy acting as PIC has all the liability risks.  I assume so long as this is not being done for carriage the “student” would be allow to cover half the expenses of the flight.  It would be an easy say that the student, (perhaps riding pilot would be a better term) provided the fuel and oil and the owner provided engine depreciation.  Thus if I am reading the regs correctly, home-builders could help each other simply by sharing rides.   Both reduce their cost, make new friends and the less experienced guy is provided a way of getting, documenting experience in a very similar aircraft, and the owner-builder of the aircraft being flown is always in the plane to lend a hand.

   

  I know I have a very selfish motives for this now as I would be the “beggar” pilot, but if we could do more of this kind of thing I believe we could reduce first flight accidents even more.. Plus I am betting flying with fellow builders is a blast.

   

  phill

       

Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 

[url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48223/*http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow]Play Monopoly Here and Now[/url] (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.  	  Quote: 	
		  

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[b]

hansriet

Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 93

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: Re: 601 dual time

I don't have a lot of time in the Zodiac XL, but I believe that the Zodiac flies very similarily to a Diamond Katana, although the pitch change when deploying flaps is more pronounced in the Zodiac. So if you can't get time in the Zodiac, try to build 10 hours in the Katana (if possible with the Rotax engine) and that would satisfie the insurance requirements.

As for the PIC time, you're right, you can write tht time as PIC. But writing time and regaining currency are two different things.

jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: 601 dual time

Phil,  

            I checked with my 3000 hour CFII/ATP instructor wife and she agrees that you have the regs right.  So now it is an insurance, experience in cockpit resource management, and risk taking question for the aircraft owner.  Also think about putting either pilot in the right seat.  Not good if the owner has to save a landing and not good for the pilot getting experience.  I am thinking about making the opposite offer: to be PIC for a pilot that can't right now, but who could fully manipulate the controls.  I have 8-9 dual hours in type (N601VA), but I'm concerned if I am needed to land the thing from the "wrong" side.  Even though I am a 500 hour instrument rated pilot, but I haven't flown much in the last two years so I'm rusty too.  These are tough calls even when the regs allow.  

            I do have an idea to check out.  I'll let you know if it pans out.  

            Jeff Davidson  

   

Do not archive this  

         

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 601corvair

 Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 12:58 PM

 To: Zenith list

 Subject: 601 dual time   

  

     

I have run into a challenge that I assume happens to other first time builders who are low time pilots.  I’ve not flown much since 2002 and am very rusty.  Most of my hobby resources have been put toward building.  I have been trying to find away to get training in some HDS like machine.  People have recommended a Grumman Yankee and there are not very many (none for rent) near me.  I am concerned that when I get ready to fly the liability insurance companies may require some minimal   time in 601.  Then I called Zenith to try and get a list of local flying aircraft and have had some success at contacting people.  But the issue is what to ask for.  I doubt any sane person is going to let me fly their airplane solo. Then, after ready the July issue of Sport Aviation page 122 under building basics,  I had an idea.  The article is questions and answers, most surrounding sport pilot and who can log time,    There is a discussion of 14 CFR 61.5(e)(1), which state that  if you are in an aircraft for which you are rated and the sole manipulator of the control, you can log time (i.e., PIC time), even if you are not PIC for the flight.  If I have this correct, then any homebuilder who has an aircraft and who can act as PIC ( i.e., current with landings, BFR, Medical if necessary) , can act as PIC ( and unofficial flight instructor) for any other pilot who is rated for that aircraft even if the other pilot has no Medical or BFR, so longs as  the “student Pilot”  is the sole manipulator of the controls.  Of courses the guy acting as PIC has all the liability risks.  I assume so long as this is not being done for carriage the “student” would be allow to cover half the expenses of the flight.  It would be an easy say that the student, (perhaps riding pilot would be a better term) provided the fuel and oil and the owner provided engine depreciation.  Thus if I am reading the regs correctly, home-builders could help each other simply by sharing rides.   Both reduce their cost, make new friends and the less experienced guy is provided a way of getting, documenting experience in a very similar aircraft, and the owner-builder of the aircraft being flown is always in the plane to lend a hand.  

    

   

    

I know I have a very selfish motives for this now as I would be the “beggar” pilot, but if we could do more of this kind of thing I believe we could reduce first flight accidents even more.. Plus I am betting flying with fellow builders is a blast.  

    

   

    

phill  

  

        

  

Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 

 [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48223/*http:/get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow]Play Monopoly Here and Now[/url] (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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        [quote][b]

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: 601 dual time

You can log pic when you are sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft in a category and class for which you are rated (ie.  Single engine land)

This could even be in something like a high performance, complex, taildragger for which you do not hold the required endorsements.   You don't have to have a medical or be current in any way.  Obviously the other guy gets to log PIC too and is in fact the actual PIC for the flight.  You can also take your BFR in an aircraft like a 172 or 150.... it need not be a light sport aircraft even if you only plan to exercise sport pilot privileges when you fly your XL.



All that aside, I would strongly recommend that you do some dual with an actual CFI - we had a guy here who wanted to save a few bucks (he was a student) and fly the Beech Sierra he had bought so he conned a Private Pilot friend to sit in the right seat.  They lost it on a landing and destroyed a wing.  The private pilot had to do a lot of explaining to the FAA and ended up having to submit to some retraining with a CFI (me.)



There are some places that do instruction in the XL - if it were me I'd take some vacation days and go for some dual.   It would certainly look better to the insurance company and might prepare you to share some flight time with a local XL owner.   Expenses you can share can only be "out of pocket" and cannot include depreciation, allowances for maintenance or the like (61.315b) The reg no longer says anything about it having to be for a trip the other pilot was going on anyway.  Other than that, getting flying time in any aircraft would help.  I suspect a Piper Tomahawk or Beech Skipper would be good choices....



You might want to seriously consider having someone experienced in flight testing homebuilts fly the first couple of hours in your XL.  I know of three instances that took place at nearby airports where a builder with very little recent flight experience cracked up their project in the first couple of hours of test flying.....one fatally.  



Good luck!



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: 601 dual time

Before My first flight in my Zodiac, I flew several hours in Cessna 152s 

and 172s. The approach and landing speeds in the Cessnas are very 

similar to the Zodiac and the performance is not drastically different. 

If you can find someone nearby to get some time in a Zodiac, so much the 

better. The important thing is to get some recent flight experience and 

get comfortable flying again.



601corvair wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have run into a challenge that I assume happens to other first time 

 builders who are low time pilots.  I’ve not flown much since 2002 and am 

 very rusty.  ...

-- 
	


Bryan Martin

Zenith 601XL N61BM

Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive

Do Not Archive

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: 601 dual time

Bryan-

    Very interesting. This is the first comparison of the 601 flight 

characteristics to a high wing plane. The CFII I hope to talk into doing my 

first test flights and then transition me said the closest certified GA 

comparison was a Grumman trainer loaded to the aft CG limits. (How he knows 

is beyond me, but I trust him). I've never flown anything that wasn't made 

in Wichita, so this could be good news for me. Especially since you can't 

rent so much as a Cherokee around here- nothing but Cessnas, Cubs, or 

Champs.

                                     do not archive

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville, Pa

---

dgardea(at)gmail.com

Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: Re: 601 dual time

I getting current again by taking instruction in an Evektor Sportstar (see attached pic). This light sport is very similar in dimensions and performance specs to the 601XL. Three of my instructor's past students have been Zodiac builders. I plan to keep flying this plane throughout the construction of my projejct. Phill, you didn't mention where you're located, but this aircraft is based in Greenwood, Indiana.



Regards,



Dave

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_________________
Dave Gardea
CH650 - Corvair - flying!
http://n631dg.t15.org/home.html

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:11 am Post subject: 601 dual time

Hi Bill,



I hope you aren't planning on doing your transition training in your 

own plane.  I think that would mean your instructor/test pilot would 

need to complete the 40 hours of test program for your plane before 

you could do any dual instruction.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive



At 07:05 AM 7/1/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bryan-

    Very interesting. This is the first comparison of the 601 flight 

 characteristics to a high wing plane. The CFII I hope to talk into 

 doing my first test flights and then transition me said the closest 

 certified GA comparison was a Grumman trainer loaded to the aft CG 

 limits. (How he knows is beyond me, but I trust him). I've never 

 flown anything that wasn't made in Wichita, so this could be good 

 news for me. Especially since you can't rent so much as a Cherokee 

 around here- nothing but Cessnas, Cubs, or Champs.

                                     do not archive

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville, Pa

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: 601 dual time

Paul-

    No, I don't expect him to fly off the time. I do intend to fly my own 

plane-don't have any choice. He can make sure the ship is airworthy before I 

take it up. Better than doing everything on my own, although there are tons 

of people that have.

    No one was available to give dual to the Wright brothers. More than 

that, I still can't concieve how their mechanic built an aircraft engine 

using only a drill press and a hacksaw!!

    Remember, this is EXPERIMENTAL aviation.

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville, Pa

---

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:27 am Post subject: 601 dual time

There are some differences in flight characteristics between the Cessnas 

and the Zodiac. The Cessnas are more stable in roll and tend to have a 

lower rate of roll even though they require a little less control force 

in the roll axis. My Zodiac has a pretty good roll rate and tends to 

stay at whatever roll attitude you put it in. My zodiac is also more 

sensitive in the pitch axis, especially when at aft CG limit.



Unlike a Cessna, my Zodiac will not lift off on its own, I have to apply 

some back pressure to rotate and lift off. The touchdown is a bit 

different also. Even if I come in a bit too fast, my Zodiac has very 

little tendency to "float", and as soon as the mains touch the ground, 

the plane is done flying and will stick right to the runway. I can't 

remember ever bouncing it and I've made a few pretty firm landings with 

it. I think the Zodiac is easier to land in a crosswind than the Cessnas 

I used to fly. Overall, I didn't encounter any really surprising or 

scary flight characteristics with the Zodiac.



I had about 300 total hours of flight time when I started flying my 

Zodiac. Most of that was in Cessna 150/152 and 172s. I only had about 3 

hours in low wing aircraft. I also had a few recent hours in a Cutlass 

RG and, several years ago, a few hours in a Cardinal RG. I remember with 

the Cardinal that it wasn't hard to get into a pitch oscillation mode on 

short final.



Bill Naumuk wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Bryan-

    Very interesting. This is the first comparison of the 601 flight 

 characteristics to a high wing plane. The CFII I hope to talk into doing 

 my first test flights and then transition me said the closest certified 

 GA comparison was a Grumman trainer loaded to the aft CG limits. (How he 

 knows is beyond me, but I trust him). I've never flown anything that 

 wasn't made in Wichita, so this could be good news for me. Especially 

 since you can't rent so much as a Cherokee around here- nothing but 

 Cessnas, Cubs, or Champs.

                                     do not archive

 Bill Naumuk

 HDS Fuse/Corvair

 Townville, Pa

 ---

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

mrcc1234(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: 601 dual time

Transitioning & Training Info



I have been researching this same issue but from a student pilots point of

view.



I am very close to soloing in a warrior toward my PP, but work and family

has kept me out of the cockpit for about a month now and I am having trouble

seeing the end of the road.  The sport pilot license would help me get a

ticket in less time and if I could do the training in an XL there would be

no transition time short of different systems.



Well I have not found an XL closer than Dallas (to Houston), but I have

found a Tecnam Sierra ( http://www.tecnamaircraft.com/P2002_Sierra.htm )

being offered for training and its specs match the XL very closely.



The Cliff Hyde Flying Service (281-464-6524) at Ellington Field, south of

Houston, is offering this aircraft for training.  I think this would be a

good aircraft for transition training to the XL.  The only problem is that

its rental rate is $90/hr wet and the instructor is another $30 or so on top

of that.  This is the same rate I am paying for my dual training in a

Warrior.  This is where I think the Sport Pilot License may not live up to

its name of being a cheaper road to flying.  It is true that you only need

half the flight time, but holy cow, These planes are costing 100k to buy and

how am I supposed to afford that?



So for me, I am probably going to finish up my PP in the Warrior and use the

Sierra for my transition training unless an XL pilot in the area is feeling

generous.  The sport pilot option is tempting, but I am going to want the

skills offered by the PP in the end anyways so why not go all the way now.



I hope this can help someone.

Happy Building and Flying,

Matt Stecher

Katy, TX

XLVair 1% (but having fun learning)

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: 601 dual time

Bryan-

    I'm sorry I already killed this post with "Do not archive". This is the 

type of information vital to builders getting ready to fly. Very good 

description of control inputs.

    Three interesting things-

    1. "Cessnas require less control force in the roll axis." I always 

thought rolling a Cessna was like pushing a concrete block through Jello. 

Very mushy.

    2. The Zenith is very sensitive in the pitch axis. This has been cited 

numerous times by other builders. PIO is a distinct possibility and new 

pilots should be on the lookout for this. I know this is my biggest concern.

    3. "The Zenith has little tendency to float". This statement surprises 

me. I would suspect otherwise, but am glad to hear of it.

            Matt, maybe you could archive this one?

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville, Pa

---

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: 601 dual time

Hi Bill,



I guess I am jumping to conclusions on this subject.  I don't think 

you can do any dual instruction in your new plane until the phase 1 

flight testing is complete.  Before that time only the necessary crew 

(i.e. the PIC) is allowed to fly in the plane.



If this is true then you can't do the transition in your own plane 

and also do some of the flight testing.  I also learned from the EAA 

insurance outfit that they want 601 flight time for me (perhaps 5 

hours?) before they will cover me flying my own plane.  That is funny 

since I have many hours flying much more difficult planes than 

that.  Still, I must travel to California or elsewhere for a checkout 

in some Zodiac before I can be covered flying in my plane.



Good luck,



Paul

XL fuselage



At 10:01 AM 7/1/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Paul-

    No, I don't expect him to fly off the time. I do intend to fly 

 my own plane-don't have any choice. He can make sure the ship is 

 airworthy before I take it up. Better than doing everything on my 

 own, although there are tons of people that have.

    No one was available to give dual to the Wright brothers. More 

 than that, I still can't concieve how their mechanic built an 

 aircraft engine using only a drill press and a hacksaw!!

    Remember, this is EXPERIMENTAL aviation.

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville, Pa

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: 601 dual time

The Cessna requires less force to move the yoke in the roll axis but has 

a slower response and lower roll rate and there's more motion required 

to get full deflection. Full stick deflection on my Zodiac requires a 

little bit more force but there's nothing sluggish about the response.



If you bring a Cessna in a little too fast, it doesn't want to stop 

flying until you bleed off that extra speed. If you try to force it to 

touch down, it's easy to bounce it back into the air. If I bring my 

Zodiac in a little too fast, I can ease the mains onto the runway then 

the nose comes down and it'll stay solidly on the ground. Or I can hold 

it in the flare and let it float until the speed bleeds off before 

touching down. Being a lot lighter than a Cessna, it seems that the 

extra speed bleeds off quicker, giving less float.

Bill Naumuk wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Bryan-

    I'm sorry I already killed this post with "D n a". This is 

 the type of information vital to builders getting ready to fly. Very 

 good description of control inputs.

    Three interesting things-

    1. "Cessnas require less control force in the roll axis." I always 

 thought rolling a Cessna was like pushing a concrete block through 

 Jello. Very mushy.

    2. The Zenith is very sensitive in the pitch axis. This has been 

 cited numerous times by other builders. PIO is a distinct possibility 

 and new pilots should be on the lookout for this. I know this is my 

 biggest concern.

    3. "The Zenith has little tendency to float". This statement 

 surprises me. I would suspect otherwise, but am glad to hear of it.

            Matt, maybe you could archive this one?

 Bill Naumuk

 HDS Fuse/Corvair

 Townville, Pa

 ---

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

fderfler(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:02 am Post subject: 601 dual time

Observation:  Every time I put a certificated pilot ... particularly a Cessna driver...   into the other seat of my 601 and let them take off, I make a little box around the stick with my hands.  I'm not guarding the roll axis, but I sure do limit their ability to overcontrol in pitch.  Cessna drivers usually bang into my thumbs on the climb.   

  

 Observation:  I owned a Grumman Cheetah before the 601.  The Cheetah was an excellent transition to the 601.  (Although the Cheetah is quieter and, because it is heavier, not quite so likely to "lift a wing" in a gust)  

 Observation:  A light sport aircraft is, by definition, lighter!  That means that you notice the wind more.  In my 601 the roll sensitivity is altered by wind more than any other aircraft I've flown and it is more difficult than other aircraft to keep on a precise course if you are trying to track within a few degrees of the wind.  In other words, the tail keeps trying to line up with the wind and you feel every gust.  (Yes, that's true of every airplane, in my experience, but you feel it more in the 601because it's a lighter plane.)   

  

 Story:  Last Saturday morning I was trying to fly due North out of Marathon.  The wind was from about 005-010 and variable.  Well, I could hold about every heading but due North.  It seemed like every correction to get back on due north was either too much or not enough. Left of the wind was one flight configuration and right of the wind was a whole different configuration.   In my personal opinion, the logic behind the less stick time criteria for the light sport license is hooie.  Sometimes / often you have to have more pilotage skill to do things right in a lighter airplane.   

  

 Conclusion:  A lot of the difference between the flight characteristics of the 601 and other aircraft comes from the weight.  And, I think the insurance companies have it right:  the best transition into a 601 is from a 601.       --Frank Derfler  

-- See My Daily Discussions of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at my Blog http://MOSTLYFLYING.blogspot.com



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  [quote][b]

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:08 am Post subject: 601 dual time

Paul-

    Sounds like a real Catch-22 situation, especially the risk my CFI would 

be taking if there were no insurance coverage for at least liability and 

medical. Same for any soul brave enough to allow dual in his Zodiac. I 

believe there was a recent post that brought up that subject.

    You're probably not jumping to conclusions, I've got to take off the 

rose colored glasses and prepare for another bump in the road. Sounds like 

there are plenty of listers out there in the same boat.

                                    do not archive

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville, Pa

---

rickpitcher

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 76

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:27 am Post subject: 601 dual time

---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:53 am Post subject: Re: 601 dual time

Where did you find an XL in Dallas for training? Do you have a phone number?

 	  mrcc1234(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: 	
		  



Well I have not found an XL closer than Dallas

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

rickpitcher

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 76

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: 601 dual time

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