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Sam
Joined: 18 May 2008 Posts: 135
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Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:53 am Post subject: Apparent grounding problems |
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I am experiencing a digital "flicker" in a couple of my electronic engine indicators. I am using a Dynon D180 in my all composite Quickie Q-200.
The problem is most apparent in the oil temp. It rapidly bounces from 190, to 235, to 200, etc, many times a second. A couple of the other instruments do the same, but the oil temp is the worst.
I contacted Dynon and they said most likely it is a "bad ground". I am attaching a crude sketch of my instrumentation ground system. (I don't have the backside of the forest of tabs grounding block mounted directly to the firewall, because is just so very hard to access, so I have an 8AWG wire connecting the two.)
The Dynon oil temp sensor is a single wire unit, with the ground path completed through the engine. Dynon suggested I try a GRT two wire sensor. I may do this, but I have to pull the engine to access the accessory case, and besides, I want to get at the root cause.
Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Sam Hoskins
Murphysboro, IL
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com
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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt Guest
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Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:55 am Post subject: Apparent grounding problems |
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Sam
When they say “bad ground”, they are not referring to a bad ground design but to a deficient ground connection.
You should look for loose or corroded ground connections.
Carlos
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins
Sent: domingo, 3 de Outubro de 2010 14:49
To: Aerolectric List
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Apparent grounding problems
I am experiencing a digital "flicker" in a couple of my electronic engine indicators. I am using a Dynon D180 in my all composite Quickie Q-200.
The problem is most apparent in the oil temp. It rapidly bounces from 190, to 235, to 200, etc, many times a second. A couple of the other instruments do the same, but the oil temp is the worst.
I contacted Dynon and they said most likely it is a "bad ground". I am attaching a crude sketch of my instrumentation ground system. (I don't have the backside of the forest of tabs grounding block mounted directly to the firewall, because is just so very hard to access, so I have an 8AWG wire connecting the two.)
The Dynon oil temp sensor is a single wire unit, with the ground path completed through the engine. Dynon suggested I try a GRT two wire sensor. I may do this, but I have to pull the engine to access the accessory case, and besides, I want to get at the root cause.
Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Sam Hoskins
Murphysboro, IL
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com
[quote][b]
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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne Guest
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Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:34 am Post subject: Apparent grounding problems |
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On 10/3/2010 8:49 AM, Sam Hoskins wrote:
Quote: | I am experiencing a digital "flicker" in a couple of my electronic
engine indicators. I am using a Dynon D180 in my all composite
Quickie Q-200.
The problem is most apparent in the oil temp. It rapidly bounces from
190, to 235, to 200, etc, many times a second. A couple of the other
instruments do the same, but the oil temp is the worst.
I contacted Dynon and they said most likely it is a "bad ground". I
am attaching a crude sketch of my instrumentation ground system. (I
don't have the backside of the forest of tabs grounding block mounted
directly to the firewall, because is just so very hard to access, so I
have an 8AWG wire connecting the two.)
The Dynon oil temp sensor is a single wire unit, with the ground path
completed through the engine. Dynon suggested I try a GRT two wire
sensor. I may do this, but I have to pull the engine to access
the accessory case, and besides, I want to get at the root cause.
Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Sam Hoskins
Murphysboro, IL
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com <http://www.samhoskins.blogspot.com>
Hi Sam,
|
Some have had problems with sensors being insulated from the engine
itself by the thread sealant. Hard to believe, but that's what some have
reported.
How is the engine ground tied to your 'forest of tabs' common ground
point? (Trying to use the steel motor mount as a conductor can cause
problems.) What are you using for your firewall feed-through, a good
conductor like brass or copper, or a steel bolt (not so good)?
Then the obvious: check existing wiring for good, solid connections.
Take close looks at all your sub-D connectors, especially if you used
crimp type pins that can be added/removed. It's not unusual for one to
partly back out of a housing, causing an intermittent connection.
Charlie
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Sam
Joined: 18 May 2008 Posts: 135
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Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject: Apparent grounding problems |
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Charlie, were you able to get the pdf attachment in the original e-mail? It shows how the grounds pass through the firewall.
I'm not sure, but I believe I used a goo-type thread sealant on the temp sensor, not teflon tape. It's hard to check, because the accessory case is buried in the firewall.
Sam
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net (ceengland(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net (ceengland(at)bellsouth.net)>
On 10/3/2010 8:49 AM, Sam Hoskins wrote:
Quote: | I am experiencing a digital "flicker" in a couple of my electronic engine indicators. I am using a Dynon D180 in my all composite Quickie Q-200.
The problem is most apparent in the oil temp. It rapidly bounces from 190, to 235, to 200, etc, many times a second. A couple of the other instruments do the same, but the oil temp is the worst.
I contacted Dynon and they said most likely it is a "bad ground". I am attaching a crude sketch of my instrumentation ground system. (I don't have the backside of the forest of tabs grounding block mounted directly to the firewall, because is just so very hard to access, so I have an 8AWG wire connecting the two.)
The Dynon oil temp sensor is a single wire unit, with the ground path completed through the engine. Dynon suggested I try a GRT two wire sensor. I may do this, but I have to pull the engine to access the accessory case, and besides, I want to get at the root cause.
Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Sam Hoskins
Murphysboro, IL
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com <http://www.samhoskins.blogspot.com>
| Hi Sam,
Some have had problems with sensors being insulated from the engine itself by the thread sealant. Hard to believe, but that's what some have reported.
How is the engine ground tied to your 'forest of tabs' common ground point? (Trying to use the steel motor mount as a conductor can cause problems.) What are you using for your firewall feed-through, a good conductor like brass or copper, or a steel bolt (not so good)?
Then the obvious: check existing wiring for good, solid connections. Take close looks at all your sub-D connectors, especially if you used crimp type pins that can be added/removed. It's not unusual for one to partly back out of a housing, causing an intermittent connection.
Charlie
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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne Guest
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Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject: Apparent grounding problems |
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Oops. I love my Thunderbird email client, but one thing I *don't* care
for is that it puts any attachment list at the bottom of the email,
instead of on the upper right, like most programs.
Looks like you can cross off the firewall pass-through issue.
I'd 'exercise' the Fast-on connectors, especially on the engine side, &
pull test to be sure there aren't loose crimps. If things get more
stable after that, it would be a hint, anyway.
And don't forget the sub-D pins in their housing; that one has actually
happened to me on the back of a comm radio.
Charlie
On 10/3/2010 6:52 PM, Sam Hoskins wrote:
Quote: | Charlie, were you able to get the pdf attachment in
the original e-mail? It shows how the grounds pass through the firewall.
I'm not sure, but I believe I used a goo-type thread sealant on the
temp sensor, not teflon tape. It's hard to check, because the
accessory case is buried in the firewall.
Sam
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Charlie England
<ceengland(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>> wrote:
<ceengland(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>>
On 10/3/2010 8:49 AM, Sam Hoskins wrote:
I am experiencing a digital "flicker" in a couple of my
electronic engine indicators. I am using a Dynon D180 in my
all composite Quickie Q-200.
The problem is most apparent in the oil temp. It rapidly
bounces from 190, to 235, to 200, etc, many times a second. A
couple of the other instruments do the same, but the oil temp
is the worst.
I contacted Dynon and they said most likely it is a "bad
ground". I am attaching a crude sketch of my instrumentation
ground system. (I don't have the backside of the forest of
tabs grounding block mounted directly to the firewall, because
is just so very hard to access, so I have an 8AWG wire
connecting the two.)
The Dynon oil temp sensor is a single wire unit, with the
ground path completed through the engine. Dynon suggested I
try a GRT two wire sensor. I may do this, but I have to pull
the engine to access the accessory case, and besides, I want
to get at the root cause.
Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Sam Hoskins
Murphysboro, IL
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com
<http://www.samhoskins.blogspot.com>
<http://www.samhoskins.blogspot.com>
Hi Sam,
Some have had problems with sensors being insulated from the
engine itself by the thread sealant. Hard to believe, but that's
what some have reported.
How is the engine ground tied to your 'forest of tabs' common
ground point? (Trying to use the steel motor mount as a conductor
can cause problems.) What are you using for your firewall
feed-through, a good conductor like brass or copper, or a steel
bolt (not so good)?
Then the obvious: check existing wiring for good, solid
connections. Take close looks at all your sub-D connectors,
especially if you used crimp type pins that can be added/removed.
It's not unusual for one to partly back out of a housing, causing
an intermittent connection.
Charlie
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Sam
Joined: 18 May 2008 Posts: 135
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Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:50 am Post subject: Apparent grounding problems |
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Simon, thank you for taking you time and your thoughtful explanation. I'll print it out and take it to the airport with me.
Unfortunately, the Dynon temp sensor is a single wire system, that's why they suggested going to the two wire GRT sensor, and like I said, I have to pull the engine to install it. This means that I'll order the sensor now and see if I can remember to install it, the next time I have the engine pulled forward. You can see the problem with getting to the mags: http://picasaweb.google.com/Sam.Hoskins/MyQuickieQ200?authkey=Gv1sRgCPnWj4CVu-_ZSg#5355132824613895954
I'll look over the Dynon installation instructions a bit more and see what they call out for the grounds. I believe they specify a case ground to the instrument panel. I probably ran a ground wire from the case to the d-sub connector which I use a a common ground, per Bob's mini-bus method: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/Minibus1.jpg
In the meantime I'll look over the connections and pin insertions.
Thanks again.
Sam
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 8:21 PM, S. Ramirez <simon(at)synchdes.com (simon(at)synchdes.com)> wrote:
[quote] Sam,
Ground problems are common on this forum, on other forums, and in the engineering world, where they literally start. The best way to look at a ground system from an engineering point of view is to model it using not only the components involved but also the wires. Wires are what cause most ground problems, especially if the design and/or construction is wrong.
When Dynon says that you have a bad ground, they can be talking about faulty construction or faulty design. You are the designer in this case, not Dynon, and I believe they are telling you that you designed and constructed a "bad ground."
I studied your diagram, and it lacks wire lengths, which are crucial to a good analysis. However, one can still study it, because there is anecdotal data from this topology. There is strong evidence that your problem lies in your sensors' grounding methods. In order to overkill the problem and have high probability of success, you should run individual sensor grounds from each sensor to the brass block located behind the instrument panel and on to the D180. In other words, ground wires should exist from each sensor all the way to the D180. Furthermore, you should twist each signal and its dedicated ground wire.
Most people do not know why wires should be twisted. They are twisted in order to guarantee that the wires stay adjacent and as close to each other as possible. Why is this important? One reason it is because when a signal travels from the sensor to the D180, it actually travels in two directions. One direction is current flowing from the sensor to the D180 on the signal wire, and the other direction is the return current traveling back on the ground wire (or vice-versa). When these currents travel down a wire, they give off electrostatic and electromagnetic fields that potentially interfere with signals on other wires. If the signal and return wires are adjacent, their fields literally cancel each other out because of the two wires' mutually exclusive inductance. Furthermore, since they cancel, they do not interfere with other signals traveling down other wires. Of course, this is the ideal situation. In real life, fields don't actually cancel 100%, but the trick is to minimize interference as much as possible. Multistrips and striplines on circuit boards are two well known methods to transmit high frequency signals. In cables, twisted wires and shielded cables are two well known methods. The theory behind all of the above methods is the same, just different equations.
In order to easily accomplish what I said above, I believe you should get two wire sensors where practical and run individual twisted wires from the sensors to the D180. If you cannot get two wire sensors, pick up the ground where the sensor ground meets the engine block. I'm quite certain but not totally sure that the D180 provides for individual sensor wires. If it doesn't, then you will have to run the D180's ground to a ground bar, not a connector, and connect all sensor grounds there. This will mean that all of the sensors will have their return currents flowing on that one wire for a short distance, which of course robs you of the mutually exclusive inductance effect for that length of the wire. If the wire is short enough, you will not see problems. If the Dynon D180 does provide for individual sensor return currents, you will notice that each return is adjacent to its respective signal. Now you know why it is so.
It seems to me that since you already have your ground system designed and built, the easiest way to solve your problem is to first prove what I say above by running the twisted wires from the D180 to the sensors directly. This should be fairly easy if you start at the D180 and then group all the wires as a unit (taped or cable tied together) and run them back to the engine through the easiest placement possible, even if it's through the cabin. Then cut them to the correct length at the engine and connect them to the sensors. Then fire up the airplane and see what happens.
Good luck on whatever you decide to do.
Simon Ramirez
Oviedo, FL USA
LEZ N-44LZ
On 10/3/2010 9:49 AM, Sam Hoskins wrote:
Quote: | I am experiencing a digital "flicker" in a couple of my electronic engine indicators. I am using a Dynon D180 in my all composite Quickie Q-200.
The problem is most apparent in the oil temp. It rapidly bounces from 190, to 235, to 200, etc, many times a second. A couple of the other instruments do the same, but the oil temp is the worst.
I contacted Dynon and they said most likely it is a "bad ground". I am attaching a crude sketch of my instrumentation ground system. (I don't have the backside of the forest of tabs grounding block mounted directly to the firewall, because is just so very hard to access, so I have an 8AWG wire connecting the two.)
The Dynon oil temp sensor is a single wire unit, with the ground path completed through the engine. Dynon suggested I try a GRT two wire sensor. I may do this, but I have to pull the engine to access the accessory case, and besides, I want to get at the root cause.
Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Sam Hoskins
Murphysboro, IL
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com
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[b]
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 1927 Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Apparent grounding problems |
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Page 2-2 of the FlightDEK-D180
Installation Guide deals with grounding. The manual says, "If your panel is not metal, or is otherwise isolated from engine ground, connect a 14 AWG or larger wire to the instrument case." The manual does not say where to connect the other end of the 14awg wire, but the engine case would be ideal. The Dynon EMS pins 3, 5, 13, 16, & 17 are for grounding. If EMS pins 5, 16 & 17 are connected directly to the brass forest of tabs, you could be assured that the Dynon is well grounded. Doing this might not fix the problem but it is worth a try and is easier than pulling the engine.
Joe
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klehman(at)albedo.net Guest
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Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:35 am Post subject: Apparent grounding problems |
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Many automobiles and aircraft use single wire sensors with no problems.
Temperature and pressure sensors typically are simply resistors that
flow a constant small DC current so there is often little advantage to
using sensors with two wires. My GRT EIS has numerous single sensor
wires bundled with ignition coil, injector coil, and alternator wires
with no problems. But yes the those ignition and injector coil wires
are twisted with their respective grounds since they are pulsed
relatively high current circuits.
I'd look for poor connections especially in the ground circuits since
multiple sensors are having issues. But also make sure any push on
connectors on the sensors themselves are also clean and tight. With
sensors fed by a common 5 volt supply, an erratic connection there could
also affect multiple sensors.
Speaking of grounds, I have two independent ground straps running from
my engine block to two bolts on the firewall forest of tabs. That is
generally recommended for electrically dependent engines. Darned if one
of them hadn't worked itself loose on the engine block (despite having
strain relief) on my last annual inspection.
Ken
Sam Hoskins wrote:
Quote: | Simon, thank you for taking you time and your thoughtful explanation.
I'll print it out and take it to the airport with me.
Unfortunately, the Dynon temp sensor is a single wire system, that's why
they suggested going to the two wire GRT sensor, and like I said, I have
to pull the engine to install it. This means that I'll order the sensor
now and see if I can remember to install it, the next time I have the
engine pulled forward. You can see the problem with getting to the
mags: http://picasaweb.google.com/Sam.Hoskins/MyQuickieQ200?authkey=Gv1sRgCPnWj4CVu-_ZSg#5355132824613895954
I'll look over the Dynon installation instructions a bit more and see
what they call out for the grounds. I believe they specify a case
ground to the instrument panel. I probably ran a ground wire from the
case to the d-sub connector which I use a a common ground, per Bob's
mini-bus method: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/Minibus1.jpg
In the meantime I'll look over the connections and pin insertions.
Thanks again.
Sam
On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 8:21 PM, S. Ramirez <simon(at)synchdes.com
<mailto:simon(at)synchdes.com>> wrote:
Sam,
Ground problems are common on this forum, on other forums, and in
the engineering world, where they literally start. The best way to
look at a ground system from an engineering point of view is to
model it using not only the components involved but also the wires.
Wires are what cause most ground problems, especially if the design
and/or construction is wrong.
When Dynon says that you have a bad ground, they can be talking
about faulty construction or faulty design. You are the designer in
this case, not Dynon, and I believe they are telling you that you
designed and constructed a "bad ground."
I studied your diagram, and it lacks wire lengths, which are crucial
to a good analysis. However, one can still study it, because there
is anecdotal data from this topology. There is strong evidence that
your problem lies in your sensors' grounding methods. In order to
overkill the problem and have high probability of success, you
should run individual sensor grounds from each sensor to the brass
block located behind the instrument panel and on to the D180. In
other words, ground wires should exist from each sensor all the way
to the D180. Furthermore, you should twist each signal and its
dedicated ground wire.
Most people do not know why wires should be twisted. They are
twisted in order to guarantee that the wires stay adjacent and as
close to each other as possible. Why is this important? One reason
it is because when a signal travels from the sensor to the D180, it
actually travels in two directions. One direction is current
flowing from the sensor to the D180 on the signal wire, and the
other direction is the return current traveling back on the ground
wire (or vice-versa). When these currents travel down a wire, they
give off electrostatic and electromagnetic fields that potentially
interfere with signals on other wires. If the signal and return
wires are adjacent, their fields literally cancel each other out
because of the two wires' mutually exclusive inductance.
Furthermore, since they cancel, they do not interfere with other
signals traveling down other wires. Of course, this is the ideal
situation. In real life, fields don't actually cancel 100%, but the
trick is to minimize interference as much as possible. Multistrips
and striplines on circuit boards are two well known methods to
transmit high frequency signals. In cables, twisted wires and
shielded cables are two well known methods. The theory behind all
of the above methods is the same, just different equations.
In order to easily accomplish what I said above, I believe you
should get two wire sensors where practical and run individual
twisted wires from the sensors to the D180. If you cannot get two
wire sensors, pick up the ground where the sensor ground meets the
engine block. I'm quite certain but not totally sure that the D180
provides for individual sensor wires. If it doesn't, then you will
have to run the D180's ground to a ground bar, not a connector, and
connect all sensor grounds there. This will mean that all of the
sensors will have their return currents flowing on that one wire for
a short distance, which of course robs you of the mutually exclusive
inductance effect for that length of the wire. If the wire is short
enough, you will not see problems. If the Dynon D180 does provide
for individual sensor return currents, you will notice that each
return is adjacent to its respective signal. Now you know why it is so.
It seems to me that since you already have your ground system
designed and built, the easiest way to solve your problem is to
first prove what I say above by running the twisted wires from the
D180 to the sensors directly. This should be fairly easy if you
start at the D180 and then group all the wires as a unit (taped or
cable tied together) and run them back to the engine through the
easiest placement possible, even if it's through the cabin. Then
cut them to the correct length at the engine and connect them to the
sensors. Then fire up the airplane and see what happens.
Good luck on whatever you decide to do.
Simon Ramirez
Oviedo, FL USA
LEZ N-44LZ
On 10/3/2010 9:49 AM, Sam Hoskins wrote:
> I am experiencing a digital "flicker" in a couple of my electronic
> engine indicators. I am using a Dynon D180 in my all composite
> Quickie Q-200.
>
> The problem is most apparent in the oil temp. It rapidly bounces
> from 190, to 235, to 200, etc, many times a second. A couple of
> the other instruments do the same, but the oil temp is the worst.
>
> I contacted Dynon and they said most likely it is a "bad ground".
> I am attaching a crude sketch of my instrumentation ground
> system. (I don't have the backside of the forest of tabs
> grounding block mounted directly to the firewall, because is just
> so very hard to access, so I have an 8AWG wire connecting the two.)
>
> The Dynon oil temp sensor is a single wire unit, with the ground
> path completed through the engine. Dynon suggested I try a GRT two
> wire sensor. I may do this, but I have to pull the engine to
> access the accessory case, and besides, I want to get at the root
> cause.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Sam Hoskins
> Murphysboro, IL
> www.samhoskins.blogspot.com <http://www.samhoskins.blogspot.com>
*
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