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Randy(at)abros.com
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 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: Starter damage after kick back on hot start |
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We about a week ago I gave a friend a ride in Central Washington. It was in the low 90’s deg oat. I dropped him off and I was on the ground for 5 – 8 min. When I tried my normal hot restart I have been using for 2 years experienced a kick back. This was not normal at all and to keep it from doing it again I went full rich on mix and ran fuel pump for 5 seconds or so to add some cold fuel to the cylinders. I knew that it would give me a flooded condition but that was my intent. This added cool fuel the intake and I was able to make a flooded hot start with no problem. Here is the issue. Immediately after the kick back the starter started to make a grinding noise much like the old Chevy starters that needed shimming. I pulled apart the starter last night and looked it over. It looked fine. I called SkyTec this morning and the confirmed that a kick back will almost always cause a bent shaft in the starter. They make the starter so that it will give way on kick backs and save the ring gear. They said that to replace every part in the starter cost 150.00 buck and is a lot cheaper than messing with a new flywheel ring gear. I agree!. So be aware if a kick back happens to you and a new noise develops. Randy 40006
[quote][b]
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coop85(at)cableone.net
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: Starter damage after kick back on hot start |
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Randy,
I had exactly the same thing happen after one of my first few starts, hadn’t even flown the airplane yet. I did some research on the list and found this to not be uncommon. While avoidable I guess, I opted for the heavier duty starter per others recommendations and it’s been great ever since. If I remember correctly it also has a different failure mode that enables you to replace one part vs. the whole starter. I recommend you do a search on the list for similar issues.
Marcus
40286
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy DeBauw
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 1:55 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Starter damage after kick back on hot start
We about a week ago I gave a friend a ride in Central Washington. It was in the low 90’s deg oat. I dropped him off and I was on the ground for 5 – 8 min. When I tried my normal hot restart I have been using for 2 years experienced a kick back. This was not normal at all and to keep it from doing it again I went full rich on mix and ran fuel pump for 5 seconds or so to add some cold fuel to the cylinders. I knew that it would give me a flooded condition but that was my intent. This added cool fuel the intake and I was able to make a flooded hot start with no problem. Here is the issue. Immediately after the kick back the starter started to make a grinding noise much like the old Chevy starters that needed shimming. I pulled apart the starter last night and looked it over. It looked fine. I called SkyTec this morning and the confirmed that a kick back will almost always cause a bent shaft in the starter. They make the starter so that it will give way on kick backs and save the ring gear. They said that to replace every part in the starter cost 150.00 buck and is a lot cheaper than messing with a new flywheel ring gear. I agree!. So be aware if a kick back happens to you and a new noise develops. Randy 40006 | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
01234
[quote][b]
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glastar(at)gmx.net
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: Starter damage after kick back on hot start |
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We had that failure a month ago in Whitehorse, a Glastar with an O-360
and a Prince prop and ignition about 3 deg to much on advance, the
starter bracket cracked so we had to wait for another one to replace it
and then adjust ignition first. Light props are more prone to be victim
to that then "heavy" metal props with more momentum.
br Werner
Marcus Cooper wrote:
| Quote: |
Randy,
I had exactly the same thing happen after one of my first few starts,
hadn’t even flown the airplane yet. I did some research on the list
and found this to not be uncommon. While avoidable I guess, I opted
for the heavier duty starter per others recommendations and it’s been
great ever since. If I remember correctly it also has a different
failure mode that enables you to replace one part vs. the whole
starter. I recommend you do a search on the list for similar issues.
Marcus
40286
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Randy DeBauw
*Sent:* Tuesday, June 26, 2007 1:55 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Starter damage after kick back on hot start
We about a week ago I gave a friend a ride in Central Washington. It
was in the low 90’s deg oat. I dropped him off and I was on the ground
for 5 – 8 min. When I tried my normal hot restart I have been using
for 2 years experienced a kick back. This was not normal at all and to
keep it from doing it again I went full rich on mix and ran fuel pump
for 5 seconds or so to add some cold fuel to the cylinders. I knew
that it would give me a flooded condition but that was my intent. This
added cool fuel the intake and I was able to make a flooded hot start
with no problem. Here is the issue. Immediately after the kick back
the starter started to make a grinding noise much like the old Chevy
starters that needed shimming. I pulled apart the starter last night
and looked it over. It looked fine. I called SkyTec this morning and
the confirmed that a kick back will almost always cause a bent shaft
in the starter. They make the starter so that it will give way on kick
backs and save the ring gear. They said that to replace every part in
the starter cost 150.00 buck and is a lot cheaper than messing with a
new flywheel ring gear. I agree!. So be aware if a kick back happens
to you and a new noise develops. Randy 40006
* *
* *
**
**
**
**
**
**
* *
*
*
|
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:10 am Post subject: Starter damage after kick back on hot start |
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Another option, probably the one you are referring to below, for those who like the Sky-Tec starters is to use the new High Torque Inline NL model. It’s 1.6lbs heavier than the original LS models but uses a simple shear pin to protect from kickback. Also, if I remember correctly, the wound field starters are less susceptible than the PM starters to causing the types of battery drains that would cause a kickback. Being a dual LSE3 configuration, this was a definite concern of mine.
http://www.skytecair.com/Lycoming.htm
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Limbo
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 5:16 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Starter damage after kick back on hot start
Randy,
I had exactly the same thing happen after one of my first few starts, hadn’t even flown the airplane yet. I did some research on the list and found this to not be uncommon. While avoidable I guess, I opted for the heavier duty starter per others recommendations and it’s been great ever since. If I remember correctly it also has a different failure mode that enables you to replace one part vs. the whole starter. I recommend you do a search on the list for similar issues.
Marcus
40286
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy DeBauw
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 1:55 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Starter damage after kick back on hot start
We about a week ago I gave a friend a ride in Central Washington. It was in the low 90’s deg oat. I dropped him off and I was on the ground for 5 – 8 min. When I tried my normal hot restart I have been using for 2 years experienced a kick back. This was not normal at all and to keep it from doing it again I went full rich on mix and ran fuel pump for 5 seconds or so to add some cold fuel to the cylinders. I knew that it would give me a flooded condition but that was my intent. This added cool fuel the intake and I was able to make a flooded hot start with no problem. Here is the issue. Immediately after the kick back the starter started to make a grinding noise much like the old Chevy starters that needed shimming. I pulled apart the starter last night and looked it over. It looked fine. I called SkyTec this morning and the confirmed that a kick back will almost always cause a bent shaft in the starter. They make the starter so that it will give way on kick backs and save the ring gear. They said that to replace every part in the starter cost 150.00 buck and is a lot cheaper than messing with a new flywheel ring gear. I agree!. So be aware if a kick back happens to you and a new noise develops. Randy 40006 [quote] ; - The RV10-List Email Forum -http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO; http://forums.matronics.com</================== [b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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bcondrey
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:32 am Post subject: Starter damage after kick back on hot start |
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Other factor is that the field wound starters have less inrush current draw than the PM types. If you’ve got LSE ignition(s) this is a potential issue although LSE has a version of their ignitions that mitigate it somewhat. Their preference if you have a PM starter is to have another small battery that does nothing except keep the voltage to the ignitions from sagging during the inrush.
Bob #40105
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 9:10 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Starter damage after kick back on hot start
Another option, probably the one you are referring to below, for those who like the Sky-Tec starters is to use the new High Torque Inline NL model. It’s 1.6lbs heavier than the original LS models but uses a simple shear pin to protect from kickback. Also, if I remember correctly, the wound field starters are less susceptible than the PM starters to causing the types of battery drains that would cause a kickback. Being a dual LSE3 configuration, this was a definite concern of mine.
http://www.skytecair.com/Lycoming.htm
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Limbo
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Cooper
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 5:16 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Starter damage after kick back on hot start
Randy,
I had exactly the same thing happen after one of my first few starts, hadn’t even flown the airplane yet. I did some research on the list and found this to not be uncommon. While avoidable I guess, I opted for the heavier duty starter per others recommendations and it’s been great ever since. If I remember correctly it also has a different failure mode that enables you to replace one part vs. the whole starter. I recommend you do a search on the list for similar issues.
Marcus
40286
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy DeBauw
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 1:55 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Starter damage after kick back on hot start
We about a week ago I gave a friend a ride in Central Washington. It was in the low 90’s deg oat. I dropped him off and I was on the ground for 5 – 8 min. When I tried my normal hot restart I have been using for 2 years experienced a kick back. This was not normal at all and to keep it from doing it again I went full rich on mix and ran fuel pump for 5 seconds or so to add some cold fuel to the cylinders. I knew that it would give me a flooded condition but that was my intent. This added cool fuel the intake and I was able to make a flooded hot start with no problem. Here is the issue. Immediately after the kick back the starter started to make a grinding noise much like the old Chevy starters that needed shimming. I pulled apart the starter last night and looked it over. It looked fine. I called SkyTec this morning and the confirmed that a kick back will almost always cause a bent shaft in the starter. They make the starter so that it will give way on kick backs and save the ring gear. They said that to replace every part in the starter cost 150.00 buck and is a lot cheaper than messing with a new flywheel ring gear. I agree!. So be aware if a kick back happens to you and a new noise develops. Randy 40006 </==================>0123456789
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: Starter damage after kick back on hot start |
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Another option is Kelly Aerospace 'snew E-Drive starter, which is
spec'd at less max current than the Skytec, has built-in kickback
protection, etc.
On 6/28/07, Condrey, Bob (US SSA) <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Other factor is that the field wound starters have less inrush current draw
than the PM types. If you've got LSE ignition(s) this is a potential issue
although LSE has a version of their ignitions that mitigate it somewhat.
Their preference if you have a PM starter is to have another small battery
that does nothing except keep the voltage to the ignitions from sagging
during the inrush.
Bob #40105
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 9:10 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Starter damage after kick back on hot start
Another option, probably the one you are referring to below, for those who
like the Sky-Tec starters is to use the new High Torque Inline NL model.
It's 1.6lbs heavier than the original LS models but uses a simple shear pin
to protect from kickback. Also, if I remember correctly, the wound field
starters are less susceptible than the PM starters to causing the types of
battery drains that would cause a kickback. Being a dual LSE3
configuration, this was a definite concern of mine.
http://www.skytecair.com/Lycoming.htm
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Limbo
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Marcus Cooper
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 5:16 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Starter damage after kick back on hot start
Randy,
I had exactly the same thing happen after one of my first few starts,
hadn't even flown the airplane yet. I did some research on the list and
found this to not be uncommon. While avoidable I guess, I opted for the
heavier duty starter per others recommendations and it's been great ever
since. If I remember correctly it also has a different failure mode that
enables you to replace one part vs. the whole starter. I recommend you do a
search on the list for similar issues.
Marcus
40286
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Randy DeBauw
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 1:55 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Starter damage after kick back on hot start
We about a week ago I gave a friend a ride in Central Washington. It was in
the low 90's deg oat. I dropped him off and I was on the ground for 5 – 8
min. When I tried my normal hot restart I have been using for 2 years
experienced a kick back. This was not normal at all and to keep it from
doing it again I went full rich on mix and ran fuel pump for 5 seconds or so
to add some cold fuel to the cylinders. I knew that it would give me a
flooded condition but that was my intent. This added cool fuel the intake
and I was able to make a flooded hot start with no problem. Here is the
issue. Immediately after the kick back the starter started to make a
grinding noise much like the old Chevy starters that needed shimming. I
pulled apart the starter last night and looked it over. It looked fine. I
called SkyTec this morning and the confirmed that a kick back will almost
always cause a bent shaft in the starter. They make the starter so that it
will give way on kick backs and save the ring gear. They said that to
replace every part in the starter cost 150.00 buck and is a lot cheaper than
messing with a new flywheel ring gear. I agree!. So be aware if a kick back
happens to you and a new noise develops. Randy 40006
; - The RV10-List Email Forum -http://www.matronics.bsp; - NEW
MATRONICS WEB FO; http://forums.matronics.com
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: Starter damage after kick back on hot start |
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This is all pretty much conjecture since I haven't a clue what really went on .... but kickback is usually caused by the right (non-impulse) mag firing at low engine RPM. The only other way for kickback to occur would be if there was a piece of red-hot carbon still in the offending cylinder .... and I wouldn't expect it to last the 5-8 minutes you were shut down. If you don't have a mag switch with a start position and you started on both ...... especially with the sky-tec starter ..... or the right mag has a p-lead problem ...... I'd expect to get kickback.
Linn
do not archive
Randy DeBauw wrote:
[quote] st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } <![endif]-->
We about a week ago I gave a friend a ride in Central Washington. It was in the low 90’s deg oat. I dropped him off and I was on the ground for 5 – 8 min. When I tried my normal hot restart I have been using for 2 years experienced a kick back. This was not normal at all and to keep it from doing it again I went full rich on mix and ran fuel pump for 5 seconds or so to add some cold fuel to the cylinders. I knew that it would give me a flooded condition but that was my intent. This added cool fuel the intake and I was able to make a flooded hot start with no problem. Here is the issue. Immediately after the kick back the starter started to make a grinding noise much like the old Chevy starters that needed shimming. I pulled apart the starter last night and looked it over. It looked fine. I called SkyTec this morning and the confirmed that a kick back will almost always cause a bent shaft in the starter. They make the starter so that it will give way on kick backs and save the ring gear. They said that to replace every part in the starter cost 150.00 buck and is a lot cheaper than messing with a new flywheel ring gear. I agree!. So be aware if a kick back happens to you and a new noise develops. Randy 40006
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Randy(at)abros.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: Starter damage after kick back on hot start |
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I have not checked the RH P lead in the start position yet but in 2 years never having a kick back makes me think all is well. It is something I will check the next time I have the cover off. Randy
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:15 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Starter damage after kick back on hot start
This is all pretty much conjecture since I haven't a clue what really went on .... but kickback is usually caused by the right (non-impulse) mag firing at low engine RPM. The only other way for kickback to occur would be if there was a piece of red-hot carbon still in the offending cylinder .... and I wouldn't expect it to last the 5-8 minutes you were shut down. If you don't have a mag switch with a start position and you started on both ...... especially with the sky-tec starter ..... or the right mag has a p-lead problem ...... I'd expect to get kickback.
Linn
do not archive
Randy DeBauw wrote:
We about a week ago I gave a friend a ride in Central Washington. It was in the low 90’s deg oat. I dropped him off and I was on the ground for 5 – 8 min. When I tried my normal hot restart I have been using for 2 years experienced a kick back. This was not normal at all and to keep it from doing it again I went full rich on mix and ran fuel pump for 5 seconds or so to add some cold fuel to the cylinders. I knew that it would give me a flooded condition but that was my intent. This added cool fuel the intake and I was able to make a flooded hot start with no problem. Here is the issue. Immediately after the kick back the starter started to make a grinding noise much like the old Chevy starters that needed shimming. I pulled apart the starter last night and looked it over. It looked fine. I called SkyTec this morning and the confirmed that a kick back will almost always cause a bent shaft in the starter. They make the starter so that it will give way on kick backs and save the ring gear. They said that to replace every part in the starter cost 150.00 buck and is a lot cheaper than messing with a new flywheel ring gear. I agree!. So be aware if a kick back happens to you and a new noise develops. Randy 40006
01234567
[quote][b]
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