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Mark 3 classic landing speed

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timwarlick(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: Mark 3 classic landing speed

To all,

  

 I am still trying to perfect my landings. My  current home base is a paved 6000 ft runway. I normally do a "bomber" style  landing (i.e. 60 mph with 1 notch of flaps and a slow gradual descent under  power). I have flown with John Hauck and his short field, full flaps, grass  field landing. What airspeed and flaps do the rest of you Mark 3 Classic pilots  use for a "normal" landing? 

  

 Tim Warlick

 Mobile, AL

 BMW R100 Powered

 Kolb Mark 3 Classic

    [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: Mark 3 classic landing speed

Normal being a runway where length is not a factor - 

 Solo, approach at 55, full flaps, partial power until just before  touchdown.

 With a passenger, approach at 60, full flaps, partial power until just  before touchdown.

  

 Normal into my place, which is a 750 foot strip that has the touchdown  end 20' lower than the top of the strip, with 300' high power lines 2/10 of a  mile out from touchdown, and a go-around is not a good option - Engine at  idle crossing the powerlines, full flaps, airspeed at 60 solo or two up, aim at  the grass 100' before the end of the runway. Round out and goose the  throttle when you get that far so you can make it to the runway. (At this point  you are flying sort of uphill) The goal is to land and stop in the first 300',  but usually I settle for not having anything bent...

  

 I always use full flaps for everything so that the airplane will always  behave the same every time.

  

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: Mark 3 classic landing speed

At 07:27 PM 7/3/2007, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  To all,

  

 I am still trying to perfect my landings. My current home base is a paved 6000 ft runway. I normally do a "bomber" style landing (i.e. 60 mph with 1 notch of flaps and a slow gradual descent under power). I have flown with John Hauck and his short field, full flaps, grass field landing. What airspeed and flaps do the rest of you Mark 3 Classic pilots use for a "normal" landing? 

  

 Tim Warlick

 	


 What I do (especially on a short grass field) is to go ahead and lock my brakes

 before I touch down. The tires will slide on the grass just fine.

 On some fields you can't afford a "bounce" or for the plane to

 "float" or a "go-a-round". The trick is that once the mains touch down there

 is enough drag that the tail will stay up and the plane will quit flying/floating even

 at faster landing speeds. Don't worry, there is enough air on the tail

 to keep you from nosing over, I promise. 

 It also works to stop floating on asphalt. 

 You'll need to learn to steer with you

 brakes sooner or later anyway.



 

  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8022448200127542755&hl=en     [quote][b]

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: Mark 3 classic landing speed

I use full flap { flaps have been altered so do not  probably give the same effect as standard ones} approach speed of 55mph round  out about 50 the air speed will drop off fast from that point and it will  settle into a 3 point landing nicely.

 Landing roll  within 200 ft { I have good  brakes for short landings}

 With two heavy bodies aboard I give the numbers all  an extra 5 mph .MK111 445 pounds emty and max take off of  1050 pounds  . Here in NewZealand  it would appear our Ultralight rules are different than you guys. With these  weights I am still well within our limits. 

  

 Chears  Tony

 [quote]   ---

rowedenny(at)windstream.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: Mark 3 classic landing speed

[quote] ---

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:22 am Post subject: Mark 3 classic landing speed

Only running a 503 so that has kept the weight  down. Aircraft is used mostly at sea level so performance is still  good.

   Tony

 [quote]   ---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:27 am Post subject: Mark 3 classic landing speed

Here in NewZealand it would appear our  Ultralight rules are different than you guys. With these weights I am still well  within our limits. >>

  

 Hi Tony,

  

 it would be interesting to compare how your rules  differ from the USA  and the UK rules.  Where are you in  Kiwiland?

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:43 am Post subject: Mark 3 classic landing speed

On the coast middle of the South Island { Timaru }  a city of about 3500. I operate from the local airport and fly mostly  inaudio.The airport has some commercial activity and also carries out flight  training with the local aero club and gliding club.No landing fees if you  are a club member,no tower. Nearest international airport 100 miles away at  Christchurch so we get pretty well left alone. Like most places there are  the people that would like to see Ultralights {microlights here } go fly some  other place.  

 We all live in hope that those that try and make it  difficult { mostly the rule makers} for us will wake up to the fact we ALL enjoy  the same passion and just want to fly.

 It is pleasing to see that the number of Ultralight  kickers are on the decline .We have a great  country that offers great views from the air. 

 Our rules are basic for now. Max weight 1234 lbs,  only one pax, maintain straight and level at 35 mph . Training to be carried out  by RAANZ  approved instructor,{ Recreational aircraft association  NewZealand } different ratings for different control systems and a special  rating for pax with a minimum PIC time. Flight test every two years with medical  {much the same medical as you would need to drive a heavy truck } Rules  have started to become more structured and in line with GA aircraft in that you  now need a log book for daily flights one for the prop and another for the  engine. You can still carry out your own maintenance but the aircraft needs a  permit to fly inspection every 12 months .

 We do have some no fly zones if flying  inaudio.

 The Kolb is a great aircraft ,its easy to manage  has no vices, has great visibility is excellent on short grass strips.I think  that our MK111 is the only one flying in NewZealand. There are a few MK2s.Also  have a 7/8 scale Sopwith camel . The camel has a 503 in it but I have a 5 cyl  radial that fits into it. It has been flown on the radial some time ago. The  radial is a Webster Whirlwind. Hope I am not boring any one with this  chatter. I just love having my feet off the ground .Also ride a 1961 AJS and  have recently restored a Triumph spitfire am now working on a 1935 Morris sports  car.Have too many hobbies and not enough time.Keep it safe up  there.

  

  Cheers

             Tony 

  

 ---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Mark 3 classic landing speed

Im still learning, but I have a MK - III Xtra with a 912 S.  I used to approach at 60 mph, idle power, and flare and bleed the last bit of speed.  Since putting VG's on, it is very confortable to approach at 50 and no need to goose the power in the flare, it keeps flying until stalling at 28 indicated.   I could fly the approach at 40, aileron control is good right until the stall, but it is just better to be carrying a little extra speed on approach for normal conditions.



For very short field, I would use flaps and drag it in at a very low speed, and chop the power right at the runway, but I would NOT make this normal practice.



I would suggest that you learn to land without power, because one day that engine will quit on you when you pull the power back, and you want to be high enough to make the field when that happens.   My technique is to stay high, and pull the power to idle for a 60 MPH glide to the runway.  That way if the motor quits, it will still be a normal landing for me.  No getting caught to low to make the runway no matter what happens.

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Mark 3 classic landing speed





Tim W:



No such thing as "perfect landings".  Survivable is more like it.  



Approach speed really doesn't matter as long as you have enough that you do not run out of inertia at the bottom when you do a "little" flare.



10 mph over stall works pretty good for me, but I can screw one up at any speed.



The main thing for me to remember is LOOK DOWN TOWARDS THE END OF THE RUNWAY AND NOT AT THE GROUND TO SHOOT THE LANDING.  



If it is a wheels landing, make sure you plant the nose and hold it down.  If the tail drops a little when the mains touch, it will balloon and get really interesting.



Full stall 3 point landing needs to be done with the mains a few inches off the ground.  When it stalls, it is going to drop.  The lower the mains to the ground when it drops the easier the landing.



I know, I know, you guys with VG's don't have to worry about dropping because the VG's do not allow that type action.  



If I get out there and play with the airplane, spend a lot of time doing "stuff", different stuff, shoot a buncha landings, eventually, all this work will come together and I'll start telling the airplane what to do instead of it telling me what to do.



Also, I use my flaps all the time.  Very seldom do I not use them for landing.  Occassionally, use them for getting out of rough, soft, short, high altitude strips.



Take care,

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: Mark 3 classic landing speed

Perhaps the MKIII Xtra has different elevators and stabilizers than the 

MKIII Classic that give it more control authority, don't know, but here's 

what I do know - If I am carrying a full size passenger in my MKIII Classic 

and shoot the approach at 45 or less, I better not have any flaps down, 

because there is not enough control authority at that speed to flare. Guess 

how I know this?  Adding back stick just before touchdown changes nothing. 

Navy carrier arrival, big time. Solo is ok, two up, make the approach at 60.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:40 am Post subject: Mark 3 classic landing speed

Hi Tony,

 sounds as though you are a busy guy. An AJS and a  Triumph. REAL motorbikes. Good on ya.

  

 I flew a Blanik out of Auckland and a K13 from  Matamata in Jan and Feb 1975. Only got a scrape along the ridge at Matamata as a  check flight because with immaculate timing I arrived just as the Nationals , or  maybe the World Champs, I forget, were starting. No one really wanted to get  involved in anything but the competitions. Understandable. According to my log  book I was charged $3 plus 7c a minute. No idea why I made a note of that. Its  the only reference to cost in my log books.

 I have flown  a Harvard (T6) out of Hood and  flown with Captain Ladd out to Kowai (sp) Island from Auckland. Do you remember  Captain Ladd? He ran amphibian charters. "A shower of Spray and we are  away"  One super evening a guy who was operating an amphibian off the beach  in the Bay of Islands took Wendy and I on an hours trip around the Bay. He let  me pole  it around and fly an approach down to wave top height before  taking over just as we touched the surface. Great memories!  The plane was  supposedly the one which flew under the Auckland Bridge, the one with the Nippon  Clip-on. The pilot argued that it was an extended take off run and got away with  it.  Just missed the Wings over Wanaka, twice, which shows very poor  planning but did get a look at the maintenance hangars where they were  working on the planes  for W over W the following week.

  

 Not likely to get to NZ again. I like long  distance flying less and less as I get older and my old diving buddy who I visit  in Auckland is getting a bit long in the tooth as well but there is a Rotary  exchange trip scheduled for 2009 and you  never know.

  

 I really envy you flying in NZ. Must be one of the  best places to fly in the world and everything so close together. Ski in the  morning, surf in the arvo and fly in the evening. What could be  better?

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:48 am Post subject: Mark 3 classic landing speed

Yep you are onto it. We do have a bit of fickle  weather from time to time that keeps you on your toes.If you find your way over  here again please make contact. Irrespective of the time of year there is always  something to do. I have only missed one W over W myself. It takes place over  Easter and Easter also happens to be about the last good boating weather over  here.I happen to camp about 1 hours drive from Wanaka so its a no brainer  really.Also about 10 miutes from Omarama I think the World gliding champs are  there again this year.  Sounds like you have far more experience at this  aviating than me. The T6 or Harvard as we know it would have been a fun  thing . Ultralights are where I started and apart from poling around a  bit in some home builts and cubs that's what I have stuck too.Already have too  many other things on the go.I do have plans to travel to the UK just not sure  when, I would like to see some maritime history as well as some aviation  history. That is the one thing we do not have a lot of {Old history} I do assist  in some mechanical work for the local aviation heritage people from time to  time.They have some Richard Pierce replicas and engines ,a collection of  early ultralights, a Tiger moth and a Chipmunk on display.The debate still go's  on as to if he flew before the Right Bros.I did go to Oshkosh in 94 ,now  that's a must ,great experience. As for the long in the tooth bit the guy that  keeps me honest in the air is about 76 and still training pilots, he also has  family in LA so spends some time over there. I hope to have as much go at that  age.{ not far away } But I understand where you are coming from its no fun  sitting in the back of one of those people movers. The only view is the one  straight ahead.Bay of Islands is a great place, just completed a tour of the  North Island, would loved to have had some wings with me. The Boss said it was  her turn to decide on the holiday so just get over it and follow  along.

  

 Cheers and keep it safe up there

                                             Tony

 [quote]   ---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:43 am Post subject: Mark 3 classic landing speed

Sounds like you have far more experience at this  aviating than me. >>

  

 Hi Tony,

 probably not. Only licenced for gliders and  ultralights but I have found most pilots will let you fly if you have any idea  at all.

  

 I got a ride in a Jet Provost that way. The pilot  asked if I flew and when I said only microlights he said `Take her out then`  and  apart from raising and lowering the undercarriage he didn`t touch the  controls until we parked it. Same with a P-51 in Kissimmee, except that the  pilot did the takeoff  and took the controls for a take off after I had  landed it and he changed it to a touch and go.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

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