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jhankin(at)planters.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:22 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly

I have some questions for the list.



I have a Firefly that is a fat ultralight.



How hard would you think it would be to sell after January 31,  with no 

airthworthiness certification or N-number?

This is the last date to do this.



Would the Firefly be worth more with the airworthiness certification and 

N-numbered?



If I am going to do this it will cost me $600. for a DAR.



Thanks.



Jimmy Hankinson

912-863-7384

Firefly #035,

JYL (Sylvania)

Pegasus Field (Home)

2000 Feet X 100 Feet- Grass

Rocky Ford, Georgia

Do Not Archive



--

John Williamson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Firefly

Get it registered and inspected.



You can spend the price of a DAR or have a pile of unregistered airplane.



As for the January 31, 2008, check what was released by the FAA:



*****

06/28/07 - FAA SETS DEADLINES FOR E-LSA CONVERSION PROCESS 



Individuals converting aircraft into an experimental light-sport aircraft (E-LSA) have until January 31, 2008, to complete the E-LSA registration, the E-LSA airworthiness inspection, and the E-LSA certification process. The FAA will guarantee that your registration and certification packet will be reviewed and your E-LSA aircraft inspected in sufficient time to meet the January 2008 deadline if applicants meet the following three deadlines.



By August 15, 2007, you submit your aircraft registration (N-number) request to the Aircraft Registration office, and; 

By October 1, 2007, you call your local E-LSA DAR to schedule your E-LSA airworthiness inspection, and; 

By November 30, 2007, you submit your aircraft airworthiness certification request packet to either an FAA FSDO, an FAA MIDO, or your local.E-LSA DAR Ask your local E-LSA DAR which office should receive this packet. 



If you fail to complete the above steps, the FAA cannot guarantee they'll be able to complete your E-LSA registration and certification inspection process prior to the January 31, 2008, deadline.

******



You might find someone away from the FAA system to buy it and fly it as an illegal ultralight, but by going thru the process you enlarge your potential buyer market.

_________________
John Williamson
Arlington, TX

Kolbra, 912ULS, 1640 hours
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot

Paul Petty

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Mississippi

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Firefly

John,



Why is there a deadline and what is the (if any) to regitering e-lsa over amature built experimental?

_________________
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
912 UL 70" warp

Paul Petty

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Mississippi

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Firefly

sorry should have read "what is the advantage"





do not archive

_________________
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
912 UL 70" warp

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly

For me, the reason to go with a Firefly is because you want a part 103

ultralight.  I think more folks would be interested in a 103 UL than a

E-LSA.  On the other hand, E-LSA allows you to log time in a "real

airplane" to apply for more advanced ratings.  Bottom line:  I think it

will have good/similar resale either way.



Nobody knows for sure, but if you have a FF with 447 and 5-gal tank, I

doubt the FAA will bother you.  Worse case is you may have to remove

brakes and instruments (or add a BRS) to make it FAR 103 legal.




How hard would you think it would be to sell [Firefly] after January 31, 

with no airthworthiness certification or N-number?



Would the Firefly be worth more with the airworthiness certification and

N-numbered?



Thanks.



Jimmy

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly

Paul, if you don't mind me stepping in here. 

The advantages of E-LSA are:

You use form 8050-88A "Affidavit of Ownership". It allows you to say, you don't have any receipts for the aircraft and can't get copies. You get it notarized and send it in and everybody is happy. This form expires Jan 31 2008. 

E-AB will require receipts for the kit, or the parts and pieces as stated on form 8050-88. 

No builders log is required for E-LSA like it is for E-AB.

If requested, your E-LSA Operating Limitations can allow you to teach or use your aircraft for hire until Jan 31, 2010. Rental of and training in an E-AB is prohibited. 

Subsequent owners of an E-LSA can take a 16 hour course for a Repairman Inspector certificate and perform the annual conditional inspection on the E-LSA they own. Only the builder of an E-AB can get a repairman certificate for that aircraft and it is not transferable. The subsequent owners of an E-AB must have the conditional inspection done by an A & P (no IA required, though). 

Well, there's four reasons just off the top of my head without getting into the "going bandido" arguments.



Rick



On 7/2/07, Paul Petty  <paulpetty(at)myway.com (paulpetty(at)myway.com)> wrote:[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" < paulpetty(at)myway.com (paulpetty(at)myway.com)>



John,



Why is there a deadline and what is the (if any) to regitering e-lsa over amature built experimental?



--------

Paul Petty

Kolbra #12 

Ms Dixie

912 UL 70&quot; warp





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121805#121805 

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Kolb Firefly

The advantage of registration is that it's not limited to 5-gallons on board. I registered my Original Firestar with a 5-gallon tank, but I carry another 6 gallons to go places. The plane is 319 lbs empty. Now I can add more things if need be not worrying about staying within the structure of Part 103. Another concern is that some airports may start banning unregistered aircraft from entering for safety reasons (Sport Pilots are FAA trained and UL pilots may not be).



Your Firefly will be worth more and you will get your $600 back should you sell.



Ralph B

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: Kolb Firefly

In a message dated 7/2/2007 10:49:38 PM Central Standard Time, ul15rhb(at)juno.com writes: 

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Another concern is that some airports may start banning unregistered aircraft from entering for safety reasons (Sport Pilots are FAA trained and UL pilots may not be). 

 

Your Firefly will be worth more and you will get your $600 back should you sell. 

 

Ralph B 

	
 

 

        Ralph, 

 

    Ive always heard that if an airport recieves any form of assistance from the gov. in the form of money, they can not disallow any one , who is legal , the  priviledge of landing there!  Is that the case or not??? 

 

 

          Ed  Diebel  FF 62           do not archive

**************************************

 See what's free at http://www.aol.com.  [quote][b]

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: Kolb Firefly

Per FAA Order 8700.1 Dated 2/9/1996, Chapter 62:



In short, if they received federal funds they are supposed to permit

Ultralight activity, but they can deny UL if mixing cannot be done safely.

 Advisory Circular 150/5190-5 of June 10, 2002 is specifically on

exclusions.  I doubt LAX permits ULs, and rightfully so.



7. OPERATION OF ULTRALIGHT VEHICLES

FROM AIRPORTS.

A. Aeronautical Activity. Ultralight vehicle operators

usually require the approval of airport authorities before

conducting operations from an airport. Operation of

ultralight vehicles is considered an aeronautical activity

much the same as parachute jumping.

B. Use of Airports. Federally funded airports must

accommodate ultralight operations if this can be done safely.

This does not mean that airport authorities must allow

ultralights to operate from the runways; rather, the airport

should set aside a special location for ultralight operations.

It is acceptable for airport authorities to establish policies,

including reasonable training requirements, that they believe

are necessary to provide safe accommodations to ultralight

vehicles. If an airport’s authorities believe it is unsafe to

accommodate ultralights at the facility, they may request

Flight Standards’ input in the assessment of the safety of

proposed operations.

(1) When assessing the safety of ultralight vehicle

operations from airports, the inspector should bear in mind

the operating characteristics of ultralight vehicles, the lack

of pilot certification standards, and the fact that these vehicles

must yield right-of-way to aircraft under all circumstances.

If the safety of conventional aircraft operations

would be compromised, the inspector should give a negative

finding to the Airports Division. When possible, inspectors

should assist in developing alternative methods to accommodate

ultralight operations.

(2) Nonfederally funded airports are not required to

accommodate ultralight operations. The FAA has no

authority in these situations; however, inspectors should

encourage ultralight operators and airport management to

consider alternative methods.



-----------------------------------------



    Ive always heard that if an airport recieves any form of assistance

from the gov. in the form of money, they can not disallow any one , who is

legal, the  priviledge of landing there!  Is that the case or not???

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: Kolb Firefly

You can carry extra fuel in an ultralight (e.g., in a portable gas can),

you just can't have more than 5 gal tank available to the engine during

flight.

------------------------------------------






The advantage of registration is that it's not limited to 5-gallons on

board. I registered my Original Firestar with a 5-gallon tank, but I carry

another 6 gallons to go places. The plane is 319 lbs empty. Now I can add

more things if need be not worrying about staying within the structure of

Part 103. Another concern is that some airports may start banning

unregistered aircraft from entering for safety reasons (Sport Pilots are

FAA trained and UL pilots may not be).



Your Firefly will be worth more and you will get your $600 back should you

sell.



Ralph B



--------

Ralph B

Original Firestar

20 years flying it





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121924#121924

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly

In a message dated 7/3/2007 2:49:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  jim(at)tru-cast.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim Dunn" <jim(at)tru-cast.com>



You    can carry extra fuel in an ultralight (e.g., in a portable gas can),

you    just can't have more than 5 gal tank available to the engine    during

flight 	


 

 Jim,

 Can you quote the Reg that states this? I would like to carry extra fuel on  some of my flights but did not think that it was Part 103.

  

 steve

  



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:16 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Firefly

 	  jhankin(at)planters.net wrote: 	
		  I have some questions for the list.



I have a Firefly that is a fat ultralight.



How hard would you think it would be to sell after January 31,  with no 

airthworthiness certification or N-number?

This is the last date to do this.



Would the Firefly be worth more with the airworthiness certification and 

N-numbered?



If I am going to do this it will cost me $600. for a DAR.



Thanks.



Jimmy Hankinson

912-863-7384

Firefly #035,

JYL (Sylvania)

Pegasus Field (Home)

2000 Feet X 100 Feet- Grass

Rocky Ford, Georgia

Do Not Archive



-- 	




How fat is it? It's possible that it might still have good resale if you could make it fit within 103. I've seen a bit of demand for true 103 machines spike a bit since the "grandfather" ELSA time bomb countdown has neared.



The other alternative is experimental amateur built which will is and will be available, assuming you can satisfy the requirements (if you can show the plane was built by an amateur, etc.). Resale there will probably be better than if it's unregistered, but probably not as good as gELSA.



My FSII is experimental a/b, but at the time I bought it barely commanded the same price as unregistered. ELSA seems to be doing better resale-wise, because of the transferrable ability to do the annual CI, though. Having to get the annual signed off by an AnP on my plane is a definite pain in the ---.....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Firefly

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

You can carry extra fuel in an ultralight (e.g., in a portable gas can), 

you just can't have more than 5 gal tank available to the engine during 

flight. 

------------------------------------------  

Jim, Part 103 limits it to 5 gallons. The rules are not clear enough to say more than 5 gallons on board. I think they say "a 5-gallon capacity".



With Sport Pilot and ultralight registration, the FAA will say there are no more excuses for overweight ultralights. The only true ultralights that make weight are single PPC's with 5-gallons/503 or smaller engine, and single fixed-wings with a 447 or smaller and 5-gallons. My Firestar fits this last category, but is overweight.



Sport Pilot registration puts a whole new twist on entering airports for ultralights. They can ban them for safety reasons even if they get federal funding. Even if an ultralight makes weight and is legal, they have not been inspected and the pilots don't need proof of training. This in itself will pose a safety issue for an airport. I'm sure we will be hearing more about this issue after the deadline.



Ralph B

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Firefly

AC 103-7 States, in part:



b. Use of an Artificial Means to Control Capacity.



           ( 1) Tanks which have a permanent standpipe or venting arrangement to control capacity are permitted, but may be subject to demonstration of the capacity if there is any reason to doubt that the arrangement is effective.



. . . So carrying extra fuel is permitted, so long as it is not usable in flight.  As long as the extra fuel is not plumbed into the aircraft fuel system I think you'll be OK.

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

Paul Petty

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Mississippi

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Firefly

This is all interesting. Untill my inspection I was under the impression that during the Phase 1 test period, NO passengers were allowed. The DAR made me read and sign a paper that stated i understood the operating limitations. I read them carefully and came across one paragraph that caught my eye. It makes referance to the "no pax" rule with one exception, and that is in referance to "only if nessary for phase 1 flight testing". So i said Oh! so if Charley needed me to ride along for a certian reason then were legal right? He said yes sir but get your stories straight in advance LOL! Bottom line is you can put a human in the other seat if it is needed for phase one flight testing. Just make sure both of you tell the same story as to what you were doing and why when questioned after you get out of ICU hehe.



The regs gotta love em.

do not archive

_________________
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
912 UL 70" warp

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:47 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly

Just make sure both of you tell the same story >>



Hi Paul,



I just love your American atitude to the rules.  Here, in general, rules are 

complied with and are considered to be there for a reason. In the States the 

rules seem to be seen as something to be circumvented if at all possible. 

Guess it is just an entirely different perspective.



Your argument about `Fat Ultralights` wouldn`t get off the ground here.  You 

either comply with the rules and you are a ultralight or you don`t and you 

are not. If you are not then all the rest falls into place and the least of 

your troubles will be that no insurance company would pay out in the case of 

an accident.



Thats not to say that the rules don`t get bent a little here and there..... 

I wish we had a little more of your attitude over here. We are really 

turning into a `nanny State` and we shalll need a certificate and a crash 

helmet to get out of bed soon



Cheers



Pat

flymichigan(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:15 am Post subject: Kolb Firefly

I find all this talk about enforcement a little strange.  The FAA has never seemed to care about overweight ultralights and I have seen no evidence that they will start after January.  The only noise of enforcement that I have heard, has come  from people who have a financial interest in SP, and those pilots that buy in to their rhetoric.  I have spoken off the record with a two FAA officials, and they have not received any mandate to step up enforcement.



Here's my take.......



If it looks like an ultrralight, has one seat, 5gal tank, and has a 447 or smaller, the FAA will consider it an ultralight....That  is, until you piss off the neighbors, or have an accident that forces the FAA's hand.  For instance, if you have an engine out and land in a school yard full of kids, they are apt to nail you to the wall.



I think sport pilot is a great solution for guys with two seats, but I intend to keep flying my firestar 1 as an ultralight,



As far as the sign at your local airport, that sounds like a place that is already hostile towards the kind of planes we fly, and they are looking for any excuse to get rid of us.  I avoid airports that are not ultralight friendly.  If they don't want me there, I don't want to be there.



Bryan Dever

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Kolb Firefly

As I said in a different post conserning Red Wing Airport....



There are 3M corporate "Jets" that fly out of there.....



 I'm Sure their have been "Situations"....



 Alot of UL pilots are busy talking on 123.45 because they don't

know OR care that there are freq ( 122.75 , 122.85) for plane to plane

 and by doing this their UNAWARE of the airport freq and Airport traffic...



 I think 3M has alot to do with that sign.....

.

.



 Gotta Fly...

Mike & "Jaz" in MN - FSII / N381PM

.

.



PS  Heading to Red Wing Airport tomorrow morning to have my

Transponder & Alt Encoder Certified  ( $75 each-Cheapest I've found )

.

.

.

.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

As far as the sign at your local airport, that sounds like a place that is already hostile towards the kind of planes we fly, and they are looking for any excuse to get rid of us.  I avoid airports that are not ultralight friendly.  If they don't want me there, I don't want to be there.



Bryan Dever

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Kolb Firefly

Alot of fellas are of course asking this same question, and as for your critera of value, that of course depends soley on the target market you plan to sell into.

I understand all the "positives" stated here for registering, and cannot argue with a single one, that is if you intend to sell to a LICENSED pilot.

I also have been in this hobby since prior to part 103 and as a dealer for the aircraft that spawned in the begining, the ability to fly one with no license, not have to get inspections and pay all the expenses that go with a FAA registered aircraft were the top of the sales pitch, and the Top of the buyers interests.   



The Kolb FireFly is an aircraft that has been demonstrated that in CAN be built Part 103 compliant, unlike alot of other single seaters that cannot be built any other way than what we call a "Fat" today. I might project that those "other" Fat's and obviously training exempted 2 seaters have been the ones living on borrowed time for years and they probably need to get registered. Thay are not the subject of this question. A Kolb FireFly is.



If a FireFly today weighs 275 lbs empty and has no N-number, it is illegal.

If a Firefly weighs 275 empty in 2009 and has no N-number, it is still illegal. It will violate the exact same rule. It will not be breaking a "NEW" rule. ( discounting the float and chute rules, of course)



Here are the questions I think need to be answered accurately before a conclusion can be drawn about weather or not we will increase the value of our ultralites by 600 bucks by transitioning them to E-LSA, or will they suddenly be a worthless pile of tube and fabric.



Will the market for 103 eligible aircraft cease to exist after 2008?

There are No changes to part 103 and Part 103 eligible air vehicles are defined as NOT regulated. 

(Remember that the entire meaning of part 103 is the description of what the FAA defines as NOT an aircraft, but an unregulated air vehicle) 



Are most participants in 103 craft today flying them because they just like 254 lb aircraft, or because they dont want to get a pilot license and keep it up.?

How much of the potential market will want to buy an aircraft that is regulated by the FAA, and requires all the yearly expense's that will allow them to keep flying?



Will the FAA suddenly begin to start sending officers into the feild with scales to determine what a aircraft weighs?



Will the FAA begin to train representatives on the details of all the single seat  craft marketed in the past as "ultralites"...hmmm..25 years or so back, that could in fact be built under 254 lbs empty, and teach the reps which ones really didnt have a chance? So they can identify them by sight, and not with a set of scales. 



Some of these  questions can be answered pretty obviously, but others cannot. Particularly the questions about how the target market will split.

Those are really the keys to the answer, and I wish I knew for sure.



I would say this in retrospect. Register it or not, the Financial Hit a builder of a FireFly might or might not take will be likely alot less than the cost of building...less the resale value of any Experimental, Ultralite, HotRod, race car or other Homebuilt toy. So dont fret on it too much!

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: Kolb Firefly

At 11:15 AM 7/4/2007, flymichigan(at)comcast.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I find all this talk about enforcement a little strange.  The FAA has 

never seemed to care about overweight ultralights and I have seen no 

evidence that they will start after January...I have spoken off the record 

with a two FAA officials, and they have not received any mandate to step 

up enforcement...


	


Depends on who you talk to.  I have heard (secondhand, but from a reliable 

source) is that the FAA plans to small airports where there has 

traditionally been lots of ultralight activity and/or complaints and ramp 

check everything in sight.  Not everywhere, they don't have the manpower, 

but scattered pot shots to make a few examples.



                         -Dana



--

--

The only correct outcome to an armed robbery attempt is a dead armed robber.

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