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cbaron66

Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 16

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: Pricing

Maybe I'm way off base here, but it seems to me the finished/flying price of this aircraft has gone up more than twenty grand since the pre-production promises a few years back. Were the guesses that far off when they started? Also, in the beginning, I don't recall any mention of having to spend thousands of dollars per week in podunk tenn. so someone can show you the "right way" to assemble your kit. This is not anything against the plane its self- it seems like a great plane that performs as per design. It's just that I felt I might be able to afford this plane based on the initial numbers that were batted around- now it looks like it will have to be something made out of pop can material.

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: Pricing

I don't think that the kit has went up 20%.  I can only recall one slight 

cost raise.  This follows the standard increase along with all other 

aircraft.  There have also been a lot of testing and design implementations 

from the original airplane.  It has changed in many ways since the 

prototype.  3 years ago when the prototype was being shown in pieces at 

shows the cost of gas wasn't $3/gallon either.  Like everything else, over 

time I'm sure the price will go up a little.  I think that you'll find that 

you can finish it out as cheap or cheaper than most SLSA's and most 

kitplanes.  The performance is great for what you pay as well!  Also, I'm 

not sure that Podunk, TN is where they are based.  True, they are based out 

of a small, single runway 5,500 X 100' field, but Shelbyville is just 

outside of Nashville airspace, and I wouldn't refer to Nashville as podunk.  

Maybe some of us that live there were a little podunk, but there's a reason 

for being based there.  Long runway for testing planes, available space, 

friendly airport staff, the want for them to be there, and most importantly, 

it's almost exactly equadistant between Oskosh and Sun-N-Fun.  Couple that 

with the fact that approximately 80% of the U.S. population is within 700 

miles of the airport.  This means an easy day flight back for most people in 

their Lightnings.  Brian W.

From: "cbaron66" <bruce.lee(at)honeywell.com>

Reply-To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Pricing

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 07:04:29 -0700






Maybe I'm way off base here, but it seems to me the finished/flying price of 

this aircraft has gone up more than twenty grand since the pre-production 

promises a few years back. Were the guesses that far off when they started? 

Also, in the beginning, I don't recall any mention of having to spend 

thousands of dollars per week in podunk tenn. so someone can show you the 

"right way" to assemble your kit. This is not anything against the plane its 

self- it seems like a great plane that performs as per design. It's just 

that I felt I might be able to afford this plane based on the initial 

numbers that were batted around- now it looks like it will have to be 

something made out of pop can material.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123388#123388

_________________________________________________________________

Rick

Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 113
Location: Colonial Beach, Virginia

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: Pricing

I do not believe the price has went up "twenty grand".

As far as I know, there has been only one price increase in engine and 

airframe(after the initial special price on the first 5 sold)since the 

Lightning was put into production.



No one is holding a gun to your head to take the" builders assistance" 

program.....I did take it, and it saved me what probably would have been at 

least a year+ in constuction time.

Not to mention, ANY, and I mean ANY questions that come up while 

building....you get answered IMMEDIATLY, and probably even shown how to do 

it!

Try that at home!



As far as podunk,TN....well to each his own.

I am glad that Arion is located in a central location.And, just outside of 

Nashville was really convenient in many ways.



What it boils down to is "how much" FREE do you have???

FREE time, or not-so-FREE money?

My time is VERY valuable to me...I spend most of it making the $$ I need for 

my living expenses and toys....................



If you like the Lightning, find a way to get it---you can build it wherever  

or however you see fit.



Also, just a pet peeve...be nice to have a name to reply to.....



Rick

N727RB



_________________________________________________________________

http://liveearth.msn.com

flying(at)qdea.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: Pricing

If you're looking for affordable fun in the air, check out the Titan 

Tornado. A well-equipped airplane is about half of what a Lightning 

costs.



There's an active email list at this URL:



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Titanaircraft/



You'll cruise at 110 mph instead of 160+, but the miles you fly won't 

cost as much, and the plane is great fun to fly.



I flew my Tornado to Sun and Fun from Wisconsin, about 1300 miles, 

and had a great time doing it.



Don't get me wrong, I'd love to fly a Lightning, but I haven't been 

able to justify the cost as yet.



Hugh Sontag



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Maybe I'm way off base here, but it seems to me the finished/flying 

price of this aircraft has gone up more than twenty grand since the 

pre-production promises a few years back. Were the guesses that far 

off when they started? Also, in the beginning, I don't recall any 

mention of having to spend thousands of dollars per week in podunk 

tenn. so someone can show you the "right way" to assemble your kit. 

This is not anything against the plane its self- it seems like a 

great plane that performs as per design. It's just that I felt I 

might be able to afford this plane based on the initial numbers that 

were batted around- now it looks like it will have to be something 

made out of pop can material.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123388#123388

pete(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:13 am Post subject: Pricing

I've got to address this one.



It is really hard to understand where this guy (whoever he is - unsigned

emails really irk me) is coming from.  We did have a price increase of

$4,000 on the aircraft kit and the Jabiru engine has increased $1,000.

Everything else has remained the same.



If you build the plane yourself and don't put many instruments into it you

can still build a Lightning in 400 hours or so for about $55,000.  Most

builders put in a more expensive interior and lots of avionics and will

spend $70,000 to build in their garage.



Those who are not as cosmopolitan and refined as this poster and choose to

come to Podunk, TN (better known as Shelbyville - capital of the Tennessee

walking horse) will spend an additional $9,600 to help get his airplane

built in three weeks.  Add about $5,000 for a professional paint job and the

total then comes to about $85,000 for a glass cockpit equipped great looking

aircraft.  These numbers are little different from our first price estimates

posted on www.flylightning.net a year and a half ago.



In any kit built aircraft the price always reflects the time involved.  You

can build a Sonex or Zenith for less money but 4 or 5 times the time

involved or a Lightning for much less time but more money.



I don't think we've mislead anyone on the costs - at least we try not to do

so.



Pete Krotje

Arion Aircraft, LLC



--

cbaron66

Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 16

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Pricing

I apologize for that Rick, My name is Bruce. I guess I would be the polar opposite of you- all kinds of time and not very much money. I guess what I meant about the builder asist program is, when veiwing the website, I get the impression that it is highly "reccomended" that you do it. Nowhere(that I could find) do they brag about how extensive and accurate the written instructions you receive when you buy the kit are. As far as pricing, when I first saw the pieces being trailered around, they were talking about an aircraft that would be flying for less than 40k- thats a far cry from the prices listed today on the website. Also in the beginning, I'm not sure you were requiered to use the jabaru powerplant. It just seems to me this whole company has morphed away from building kits for "modest"builders to buy, to catering to guys with much deeper pockets and little time to truly "experiance" building an airplane with your bare hands. In other words, I think they found a pot with more gold in it. I guess I can't blame them for that........

pete(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: Pricing

I think you are a little confused about what you saw in the past.  The

Lightning has always specified the Jabiru engine. No other engine was ever

considered. Never was $40,000 mentioned as a cost for a complete airframe.

The first five were sold at a discount that made the kit and engine package

come to about $40,000 and we were advertising on the web site that one could

complete a low end Lightning for $50,000.  The only reason we offer a build

assist program is that 70% of our customers ask for it and think it well

worth the money.  I did not get from the web site that a build assist

program is required or even recommended!



I don't think the company has morphed in any direction.  We offer a kit that

builds faster than any of the faster kit built aircraft for a cost that is

"modest" when compared to other fast build kits.  It was never our mission

to compete with Sonex for the extreme low cost aircraft but to offer one

that does not much more than a Zenith 601, flies a whole lot better with

speeds approaching the RV 6 and can be built for less money than an RV and

in a small fraction of the time.  We tried to look more like a Lancair but

at a fraction of the cost and a small fraction of the build time.  I had

thought we had communicated that mission but I must need more effort there.



Pete



--

pm(at)tecnam.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:15 am Post subject: Pricing

Sir,

I am the agent for kit built Tecnam Sierras in the UK. I am an active viewer 

of the Lightning site as well as the original Spanish Esqual site, even flew 

with Francois before he was killed.

I love the Lightning and said hello to you at Sun n Fun this year.

The point I would like to make is at the present exchange rate of the dollar 

being worth 1/2 a pound, a similar VFR equipped Sierra cost $ 100k to build 

in UK. Petrol is over $ 8 dollars an imperial gallon and this fella is 

complaining.

Paul Mitchell

---

cbaron66

Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 16

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Pricing

Pete, Once again I'll compliment you on a wonderful aircraft that seems to do everything good. You said it yourself- you sold the first five with the engine for less than 40 grand( you actually told me 38,500, and the price without the engine was 24,500 as I recall) and that was what I'm baseing this thread on. I didn't write it down, but I was also told by someone there(I don't remember the name) that I could most likely use an o-235 if I wanted to build my own mount(which I would). As I have one that is low time, and you can get a wood prop for less than a grand, I would be flying for less than $30,000!- I guess I should have taken you up on the deal at the time...... AGAIN this is not an attack on you or your company. You have a great product and a good business model- just not for us small potatoes builders.

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: Pricing

"Nowhere(that I could find) do they brag about how extensive and accurate 

the written instructions you receive when you buy the kit are."



Bruce,

    I'm not sure when you joined the list, but in the past 2-3 weeks there 

have been probably 2-3 people who are regular ole joe's who have testified 

to the build manual with extensive pictures and how accurately written they 

were.  I know that Buz has seen them.  I can't remember which other customer 

had just commented on that in about the past week.



If you're looking for them bragging on the build manual on the website, now 

that's another story.  From my 2+ years knowing the bunch at Shelbyville and 

flying with a little of all of them. (BTW, a light sport compliant Lightning 

can keep up with an experimental.....for a couple of seconds.  I saw Mark 

from a few thousand feet up when he took out Alpha Lima, and me in Rick's 

plane.  Trading altitude for airspeed I fell right in beside him.....but 

then loosing that energy from the dive, well he started to walk away from me 

pretty good.)  Anyhow, from my knowing them, they're not a bragging bunch of 

people.  They just kind of let the facts speak for themselves.  Now several 

of the board members will tell you that they were doubting Thomas's when 

they came onto the list.  So many conversations come back to square one with 

new members.  Hopefully a few of those guys will be flying before long and 

can tell you what their unbiased opinion is.  So far, everybody that I know 

is buying the Lightning for one of two things (or both): looks or 

performance.  You might be able to find something with better looks if you 

try hard enough (although I doubt it'll be cheaper).  You can definately 

find something with better performance, although it may cost you half a 

million or so, and even then the fuel consumption verses cruising speeds 

doesn't compare.



So, what I would suggest is to ask a lot of questions, get a demo ride.  If 

you don't like Shelbyville, go to Green Landings, or out to Tucson.  Pete 

and his bunch are from Wisconsin if you prefer the Northern country boys.  

You sound like a fair weather flyer that could have a very cheap and really 

well performing Lightning b/c of low weight.  Another thing that some people 

have done if you really like the plane is to go in with another partner on 

it.  Or, if you find that it's just not a good fit for you and the money 

just isn't there, you are always welcome to continue on the board and be a 

fan.  Heck, I talked to a guy today about helping to fly a B-25.  It aint 

happening anytime soon, but we can dream.



Anyhow, people aren't trying to bash you here, but the intent of your (and 

everybody elses) messages sometimes get a little personal when you're 

reading what somebody wrote as opposed to listening to them.  So, welcome, 

lurk, post questions, carry on.  Brian W.



From: "cbaron66" <bruce.lee(at)honeywell.com>

Reply-To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Pricing

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:18:28 -0700






I apologize for that Rick, My name is Bruce. I guess I would be the polar 

opposite of you- all kinds of time and not very much money. I guess what I 

meant about the builder asist program is, when veiwing the website, I get 

the impression that it is highly "reccomended" that you do it. Nowhere(that 

I could find) do they brag about how extensive and accurate the written 

instructions you receive when you buy the kit are. As far as pricing, when I 

first saw the pieces being trailered around, they were talking about an 

aircraft that would be flying for less than 40k- thats a far cry from the 

prices listed today on the website. Also in the beginning, I'm not sure you 

were requiered to use the jabaru powerplant. It just seems to me this whole 

company has morphed away from building kits for "modest"builders to buy, to 

catering to guys with much deeper pockets and little time to truly 

"experiance" building an airplane with your bare hands. In other words, I 

think they found a pot wit!

  h more gold in it. I guess I can't blame them for that........





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123409#123409

_________________________________________________________________

http://liveearth.msn.com

deuskid

Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 26
Location: St Louis, MO

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Pricing

 	  pete(at)flylightning.net wrote: 	
		  



<snip>

Those who are not as cosmopolitan and refined as this poster and choose to

come to Podunk, TN (better known as Shelbyville - capital of the Tennessee

walking horse) will spend an additional $9,600 to help get his airplane

built in three weeks.  

<snip>

Pete Krotje

Arion Aircraft, LLC



-- 	




Clarification question to this point made:



On your website you talk about coming for a week then having it painted then coming back a second week and finishing up.  Here 3 weeks are suggested.  Are you finding that most take 3?



What is the breakdown [major points] completed by week?  



If one wanted to 'begin' at your place then trailer it back for completion at what point would be a good cut off?



What should I have asked about builder assist [or what do you wish to share/expand upon]?



Thanks,



John

pete(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: Pricing

 	  Quote: 	
		  From the web site description of the build assist program: 

 "If panel installation is not too complicated a builder can usually get the
	


aircraft ready for it's airworthiness inspection after two or three days in

the third and final week."



"The final step in the aircraft construction is the test flight program to

complete the required 40 hours of test flying.  Usually the aircraft would

be ready for its first flight after inspection in the middle of the third

week."



So to answer your question - yes - it does take more than two weeks to get

the plane to flight worthy state.  Most builders get it inspected on

Wednesday of the third week and spend Thursday and Friday on taxi testing

and first flights.  Rigging adjustments and other adjustments are made

during those two days leaving the builder with an aircraft with most of the

bugs worked out and ready to finish the 40 hour fly off.



There are two natural break points.  One is after the first week when the

structure is complete except for canopy.  The second is after paint but

before the wings are reattached but after the tail, canopy and panel are in.



Pete



--

vettin74(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: Pricing

During the first week of assist the airframe is completed to the point where we take it to the paint shop. The basic structure is done, the engine is hung to allow fitting of the cowling. i gues most easy to explain is what we do not do in the first week. We do not put the canopy on, the paint shop perfers it off so they do not wreck it. the wheel pants are not fitted, these are an option and hense they would require more of our time to help you install them above and beyond the normal work accomplished, these are time consuming but are well worth the effort for performance, so on that note most customers fit them on a rainy day during their flight testing. landing light is also an option and would involve more time to fit. The airframe is on its gear the wings and all assemblies have been fitted. During the second week all flight controls are installed for the final time. The brakes are blead, rudder rigged, elevator and trim systems rigged and fitted. Ailerons are  rigged at the wings with final rigging to go. fuel systems are completed, all firewall forward systems are completed. The instrument panel, if our shop has wired it, will get installed and some wring completed. The canopy and all associated items are finished and bonded on friday as to allow it to cure well over the weekend. The thrid week is to finish up wiring, install the wings for the final time. Finish any systems associated with the wing install. We paln to have an inspection on Wednesday or Thrusday night of the thrid week, and weather permitting a first flight on friday. I know this seams intense, and it is, but we have completed many Lightnings in this time frame and are very confident in it. Now some things to consider about this, landing lights would have to be fitted before paint, but can not be fitted during that first week because we have to keep on schedule to finish by friday of the first week, normally we can do it after the first week for a fee. Also it  saves you money to fit the wheel pants during your flight testing, your here and it will rain, so its good time spent and we dont have to charge you. Auto pilots are another thing some people like we do not doing anything with them during those 3 weeks except if you order it the head unit will be installe din the panel, but there will be extra time to install the servos, mounts, and pushrods for them. This may answer some questions or it might bring up some more either way something to think about...

   

  nick 



deuskid <empire.john(at)gmail.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Lightning-List message posted by: "deuskid" 

pete(at)flylightning.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 Those who are not as cosmopolitan and refined as this poster and choose to

 come to Podunk, TN (better  known as Shelbyville - capital of the Tennessee

 walking horse) will spend an additional $9,600 to help get his airplane

 built in three weeks. 

 

 Pete Krotje

 Arion Aircraft, LLC

 

 --


	




Clarification question to this point made:



On your website you talk about coming for a week then having it painted then coming back a second week and finishing up. Here 3 weeks are suggested. Are you finding that most take 3?



What is the breakdown [major points] completed by week? 



If one wanted to 'begin' at your place then trailer it back for completion at what point would be a good cut off?



What should I have asked about builder assist [or what do you wish to share/expand upon]?



Thanks,



John





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