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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
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 Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: Tailplane retention |
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Far be it for me, a humble late-builder, to chime in on this very
technical discussion thread; nonetheless, in the spirit of "open source
communication" with its underlying premise that an optimal solution to
the problem will arise out of the clamor, I have a few thoughts to
share. If I seem long-winded, my apologies, but clarity is my goal, as
I've had difficulty understanding some of the posts of others whose
brevity obscured (at least to me) some aspects of their intent.
As I look at my "pre-glassed" tailplanes which came w/ my "accelerated"
kit, the first thing I notice is that the pip pin recesses as supplied
bear no resemblance to the drawings in the manual...at the skin
surface, the recesses are round...about 1.25" diameter...and taper down
to a .50" hemisphere in which is centered the hole for the pip pin. So
I really have no assurance as to what extent the TP6 is properly bonded
in or exactly what is going on...I ponder this while reading about
variations (such as TP6 location) which others are discovering.
As I review Mod 73 and digest the insightful posts regarding the
process of accomplishing it, I can't escape my sense that...while it's
doable and apparently (at least to those with both the hands-on
building skills and technical knowledge to make such an assessment)
solves the problem...the mod seems like a bit of a band aid solution.
If I understand it correctly, it relies upon a proper bond between a
small crescent of a portion of TP6 to some bid cloth which transfers
any loads to the skin of the tailplane....I question whether I want to
rely on that bond to resist impacts from normal (and sometimes not so
normal) rigging.
If the fundamental goal is to simply keep the TP12 pins fully engaged,
I'm looking elsewhere from the pip pins.
I'm looking at the tailplane root close out which, on my tailplanes,
looks like about .088" of solid FG skin. I'm referring to the flanges
which measure a full inch in width...from edge to innermost surface of
the inboard plywood insert with the bushes which receive the TP12 pins.
I liked Carl P.'s suggestion (as I understood it) of a hardened steel
pin extending thru both top and bottom skins and lying inboard of the
TP12 driveplate. The FG flange could be suitably reinforced...perhaps
with an embedded plate which could be threaded to receive a threaded
rod, thus eliminating fasteners extending beyond the plane of the
tailplane surface. I did not understand Carl's calling for the rod to
be 9" long, as the depth of the tailplane at the root is just under 5",
but perhaps that was a typo. The beauty of Carl's suggestion is that it
is simple and direct...it is completely visable anytime the tailplane
is slid away from the fuselage an inch or so...and the condition of the
"fix" can be monitored at any time in the future.
Now that FG flange is only 1" wide, and the TP12 flanges measure 7/16",
and the bushes sit 1/16" proud of the glassed plywood...so...after a
(let's say) 1/4" dia. hole is drilled for a hardened steel pin to slide
past the TP12 drive plate, there's only a 1/4" left of the flange. It
would be sufficient however if the flange were reinforced with an
embedded plate which would allow the forces to be transferred to both
the top and bottom skins.
The steel pin could be cut flush top and bottom; perhaps only the
bottom plate would be threaded, and the top end of the pin could be
slotted for a screwdriver so the pin could be turned in place (and
perhaps loctite'd?). For redundancy, there could be two pins per side
as Carl P. suggested for the faint of heart.
With such a solution, the uncertainties of the conditions of the foam,
flox, TP5 placement, and other issues around the pip pins become
irrelevant.
Amen...thanks for wading through this post.
In the time it's taken me to write this, I may well have been able to
install Mod 73...and...there's always been more than one way to skin a
cat,
Fred
A194
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mau11(at)free.fr
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:50 pm Post subject: Tailplane retention |
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Hi Roger,
I am interested by your lever retention developpement, if you have pictures, or
drawings, thanks to send to me.
Thank you
Michel AUVRAY
Builder 145
Europa 320 hours fligt
Selon Roger Sheridan <rogerjohnsheridan(at)yahoo.co.uk>:
| Quote: |
<rogerjohnsheridan(at)yahoo.co.uk>
Hi Bob,
I haven't applied for a mod for the "levers" but did get this
response from Andy Draper:
--------------------------------------------
Dear Roger,
Thanks for the idea for tailplane retention. I was sent copies from a
couple of other sources yesterday and I must say that I like the
principle of what you've done. In anticipation of discussions with
Roger Bull from Europa later today (if he makes it past the floods!)
about possible solutions to the issues raised following the accident to
G-HOFC, I have drawn up a development of your design, using a
compression spring (a tension spring might break) and with a tang that
protrudes through the bottom flange as well as the top when latched to
relieve the pivot from any loads. The aim is that we can offer a method
of tailplane retention that requires no composite work to install - a
lot of current Europa owners don't have the skills nor the materials.
How are you doing? How is the Europa project coming along? I hope that
we might catch up with each other soon.
Regards
Andy
------------------------------------------------
Can't enter into further discussions for a fortnight as I'm off on
hols in the morning.
Brgds,
Roger
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gcrowder2
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:23 am Post subject: Tailplane retention |
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I like it. I'm doing it this way rather than trying to improve the TP6 bond! Thats nuts!
Glenn
| Quote: | Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 22:57:39 -0700
Subject: Tailplane retention
From: fklein(at)orcasonline.com
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Far be it for me, a humble late-builder, to chime in on this very
technical discussion thread; nonetheless, in the spirit of "open source
communication" with its underlying premise that an optimal solution to
the problem will arise out of the clamor, I have a few thoughts to
share. If I seem long-winded, my apologies, but clarity is my goal, as
I've had difficulty understanding some of the posts of others whose
brevity obscured (at least to me) some aspects of their intent.
As I look at my "pre-glassed" tailplanes which came w/ my "accelerated"
kit, the first thing I notice is that the pip pin recesses as supplied
bear no resemblance to the drawings in the manual...at the skin
surface, the recesses are round...about 1.25" diameter...and taper down
to a .50" hemisphere in which is centered the hole for the pip pin. So
I really have no assurance as to what extent the TP6 is properly bonded
in or exactly what is going on...I ponder this while reading about
variations (such as TP6 location) which others are discovering.
As I review Mod 73 and digest the insightful posts regarding the
process of accomplishing it, I can't escape my sense that...while it's
doable and apparently (at least to those with both the hands-on
building skills and technical knowledge to make such an assessment)
solves the problem...the mod seems like a bit of a band aid solution.
If I understand it correctly, it relies upon a proper bond between a
small crescent of a portion of TP6 to some bid cloth which transfers
any loads to the skin of the tailplane....I question whether I want to
rely on that bond to resist impacts from normal (and sometimes not so
normal) rigging.
If the fundamental goal is to simply keep the TP12 pins fully engaged,
I'm looking elsewhere from the pip pins.
I'm looking at the tailplane root close out which, on my tailplanes,
looks like about .088" of solid FG skin. I'm referring to the flanges
which measure a full inch in width...from edge to innermost surface of
the inboard plywood insert with the bushes which receive the TP12 pins.
I liked Carl P.'s suggestion (as I understood it) of a hardened steel
pin extending thru both top and bottom skins and lying inboard of the
TP12 driveplate. The FG flange could be suitably reinforced...perhaps
with an embedded plate which could be threaded to receive a threaded
rod, thus eliminating fasteners extending beyond the plane of the
tailplane surface. I did not understand Carl's calling for the rod to
be 9" long, as the depth of the tailplane at the root is just under 5",
but perhaps that was a typo. The beauty of Carl's suggestion is that it
is simple and direct...it is completely visable anytime the tailplane
is slid away from the fuselage an inch or so...and the condition of the
"fix" can be monitored at any time in the future.
Now that FG flange is only 1" wide, and the TP12 flanges measure 7/16",
and the bushes sit 1/16" proud of the glassed plywood...so...after a
(let's say) 1/4" dia. hole is drilled for a hardened steel pin to slide
past the TP12 drive plate, there's only a 1/4" left of the flange. It
would be sufficient however if the flange were reinforced with an
embedded plate which would allow the forces to be transferred to both
the top and bottom skins.
The steel pin could be cut flush top and bottom; perhaps only the
bottom plate would be threaded, and the top end of the pin could be
slotted for a screwdriver so the pin could be turned in place (and
perhaps loctite'd?). For redundancy, there could be two pins per side
as Carl P. suggested for the faint of heart.
With such a solution, the uncertainties of the conditions of the foam,
flox, TP5 placement, and other issues around the pip pins become
irrelevant.
Amen..thanks for wading through this post.
In the time it's taken me to write this, I may well have been able to
install Mod 73..and...there's always been more than one way to skin a
cat,
&==========
|
See what you’re getting into…before you go there. Check it out! [quote][b]
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kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: Tailplane retention |
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Regarding Carl's solution, how about using long pip pins made to order by
that outfit in Fort Worth.
The bottom of the pins would project through the bottom of the closeout and
would be inspected on every pre-flight inspection. The top of the pin would
be level with the top skin, and installed in such a way that they can only
be extracted with a small pair of longnose pliers for safety's sake ( I have
a similar arrangement with my regular pins). To make it easy to place the
pins, a piece of tubing could be installed inside the closeout down to the
edge of the TP12.
Karl
| Quote: | From: glenn crowder <gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com>
Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Tailplane retention
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 08:22:20 -0600
I like it. I'm doing it this way rather than trying to improve the TP6
bond! Thats nuts!
Glenn> Date: Sun, 15 Jul
2007 22:57:39 -0700> Subject: Tailplane retention> From:
fklein(at)orcasonline.com> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com> > --> Europa-List
message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>> > Far be it for me,
a humble late-builder, to chime in on this very > technical discussion
thread; nonetheless, in the spirit of "open source > communication" with
its underlying premise that an optimal solution to > the problem will arise
out of the clamor, I have a few thoughts to > share. If I seem long-winded,
my apologies, but clarity is my goal, as > I've had difficulty
understanding some of the posts of others whose > brevity obscured (at
least to me) some aspects of their intent.> > As I look at my "pre-glassed"
tailplanes which came w/ my "accelerated" > kit, the first thing I notice
is that the pip pin recesses as supplied > bear no resemblance to the
drawings in the manual...at the skin > surface, the recesses are
round...about 1.25" diameter...and taper down > to a .50" hemisphere in
which is centered the hole for the pip pin. So > I really have no assurance
as to what extent the TP6 is properly bonded > in or exactly what is going
on...I ponder this while reading about > variations (such as TP6 location)
which others are discovering.> > As I review Mod 73 and digest the
insightful posts regarding the > process of accomplishing it, I can't
escape my sense that...while it's > doable and apparently (at least to
those with both the hands-on > building skills and technical knowledge to
make such an assessment) > solves the problem...the mod seems like a bit of
a band aid solution. > If I understand it correctly, it relies upon a
proper bond between a > small crescent of a portion of TP6 to some bid
cloth which transfers > any loads to the skin of the tailplane....I
question whether I want to > rely on that bond to resist impacts from
normal (and sometimes not so > normal) rigging.> > If the fundamental goal
is to simply keep the TP12 pins fully engaged, > I'm looking elsewhere from
the pip pins.> > I'm looking at the tailplane root close out which, on my
tailplanes, > looks like about .088" of solid FG skin. I'm referring to the
flanges > which measure a full inch in width...from edge to innermost
surface of > the inboard plywood insert with the bushes which receive the
TP12 pins.> > I liked Carl P.'s suggestion (as I understood it) of a
hardened steel > pin extending thru both top and bottom skins and lying
inboard of the > TP12 driveplate. The FG flange could be suitably
reinforced...perhaps > with an embedded plate which could be threaded to
receive a threaded > rod, thus eliminating fasteners extending beyond the
plane of the > tailplane surface. I did not understand Carl's calling for
the rod to > be 9" long, as the depth of the tailplane at the root is just
under 5", > but perhaps that was a typo. The beauty of Carl's suggestion is
that it > is simple and direct...it is completely visable anytime the
tailplane > is slid away from the fuselage an inch or so...and the
condition of the > "fix" can be monitored at any time in the future.> > Now
that FG flange is only 1" wide, and the TP12 flanges measure 7/16", > and
the bushes sit 1/16" proud of the glassed plywood...so...after a > (let's
say) 1/4" dia. hole is drilled for a hardened steel pin to slide > past the
TP12 drive plate, there's only a 1/4" left of the flange. It > would be
sufficient however if the flange were reinforced with an > embedded plate
which would allow the forces to be transferred to both > the top and bottom
skins.> > The steel pin could be cut flush top and bottom; perhaps only the
> bottom plate would be threaded, and the top end of the pin could be >
slotted for a screwdriver so the pin could be turned in place (and >
perhaps loctite'd?). For redundancy, there could be two pins per side > as
Carl P. suggested for the faint of heart.> > With such a solution, the
uncertainties of the conditions of the foam, > flox, TP5 placement, and
other issues around the pip pins become > irrelevant.> > Amen...thanks for
wading through this post.> > In the time it's taken me to write this, I may
well have been able to > install Mod 73...and...there's always bee=====> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
See what you’re getting into…before you go there.
http://newlivehotmail.com
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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: Tailplane retention |
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Thank you Bob...a picture is worth 1000 words...kudos to Roger
Sheridan...I now recall seeing his pictures but my mind lost them in
the plethora of posts on this topic...and I certainly agree w/ your
comment to NOT file or alter the TP12 drive plates.
Fred
do not archive
On Monday, July 16, 2007, at 01:35 AM, R.C.Harrison wrote:
| Quote: |
Why am I telling you this?.......Just out of interest really but to
accompany the photos above. A system which you may be interested in?
Roger Sheridan hasn't applied for it as a mod yet but Andy Draper has
voiced interest
|
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carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: Tailplane retention |
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I did not understand Carl's calling for the rod to
| Quote: | be 9" long, as the depth of the tailplane at the root is just under 5",
but perhaps that was a typo.
|
I told the wife it was 9" long but she says its nearer 5". I need to get my eyes tested.
Fact is that I never measured it - just guessed.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
[quote][b]
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patkinson
Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: Tailplane retention |
|
|
Carl
If I hadn't read the rest of this thread I would have guessed that you
were talking about something else entirely. It must be something to do
with the way my mind works.
Anyway, don't worry about your eyes, just listen to your wife. She knows
best.
Regards
Paul Atkinson
do not archive... please!
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:55:06 +0100, Carl Pattinson
<carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | I told the wife it was 9" long but she says its nearer 5". I need to get
my eyes tested.
Fact is that I never measured it - just guessed.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
|
--
/
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject: Tailplane retention |
|
|
Remember. Any holes drilled in the TP4 tube have to be horizontal.
Vertical holes would weaken the tube too much.
Graham
glenn crowder wrote:
| Quote: | I like it. I'm doing it this way rather than trying to improve the
TP6 bond! Thats nuts!
Glenn
> Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 22:57:39 -0700
> Subject: Tailplane retention
> From: fklein(at)orcasonline.com
> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
>
> Far be it for me, a humble late-builder, to chime in on this very
> technical discussion thread; nonetheless, in the spirit of "open source
> communication" with its underlying premise that an optimal solution to
> the problem will arise out of the clamor, I have a few thoughts to
> share. If I seem long-winded, my apologies, but clarity is my goal, as
> I've had difficulty understanding some of the posts of others whose
> brevity obscured (at least to me) some aspects of their intent.
>
> As I look at my "pre-glassed" tailplanes which came w/ my "accelerated"
> kit, the first thing I notice is that the pip pin recesses as supplied
> bear no resemblance to the drawings in the manual...at the skin
> surface, the recesses are round...about 1.25" diameter...and taper down
> to a .50" hemisphere in which is centered the hole for the pip pin. So
> I really have no assurance as to what extent the TP6 is properly bonded
> in or exactly what is going on...I ponder this while reading about
> variations (such as TP6 location) which others are discovering.
>
> As I review Mod 73 and digest the insightful posts regarding the
> process of accomplishing it, I can't escape my sense that...while it's
> doable and apparently (at least to those with both the hands-on
> building skills and technical knowledge to make such an assessment)
> solves the problem...the mod seems like a bit of a band aid solution.
> If I understand it correctly, it relies upon a proper bond between a
> small crescent of a portion of TP6 to some bid cloth which transfers
> any loads to the skin of the tailplane....I question whether I want to
> rely on that bond to resist impacts from normal (and sometimes not so
> normal) rigging.
>
> If the fundamental goal is to simply keep the TP12 pins fully engaged,
> I'm looking elsewhere from the pip pins.
>
> I'm looking at the tailplane root close out which, on my tailplanes,
> looks like about .088" of solid FG skin. I'm referring to the flanges
> which measure a full inch in width...from edge to innermost surface of
> the inboard plywood insert with the bushes which receive the TP12 pins.
>
> I liked Carl P.'s suggestion (as I understood it) of a hardened steel
> pin extending thru both top and bottom skins and lying inboard of the
> TP12 driveplate. The FG flange could be suitably reinforced...perhaps
> with an embedded plate which could be threaded to receive a threaded
> rod, thus eliminating fasteners extending beyond the plane of the
> tailplane surface. I did not understand Carl's calling for the rod to
> be 9" long, as the depth of the tailplane at the root is just under 5",
> but perhaps that was a typo. The beauty of Carl's suggestion is that it
> is simple and direct...it is completely visable anytime the tailplane
> is slid away from the fuselage an inch or so...and the condition of the
> "fix" can be monitored at any time in the future.
>
> Now that FG flange is only 1" wide, and the TP12 flanges measure 7/16",
> and the bushes sit 1/16" proud of the glassed plywood...so...after a
> (let's say) 1/4" dia. hole is drilled for a hardened steel pin to slide
> past the TP12 drive plate, there's only a 1/4" left of the flange. It
> would be sufficient however if the flange were reinforced with an
> embedded plate which would allow the forces to be transferred to both
> the top and bottom skins.
>
> The steel pin could be cut flush top and bottom; perhaps only the
> bottom plate would be threaded, and the top end of the pin could be
> slotted for a screwdriver so the pin could be turned in place (and
> perhaps loctite'd?). For redundancy, there could be two pins per side
> as Carl P. suggested for the faint of heart.
>
> With such a solution, the uncertainties of the conditions of the foam,
> flox, TP5 placement, and other issues around the pip pins become
> irrelevant.
>
> Amen...thanks for wading through this post.
>
> In the time it's taken me to write this, I may well have been able to
> install Mod 73...and...there's always been more than one way to skin a
> cat,
&==========
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
See what you’re getting into…before you go there. Check it out!
<http://newlivehotmail.com>
*
*
|
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
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