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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
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 Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues |
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| Quote: | What have you heard about the Airmaster/Sensenich combination?
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It will be unveiled at Oshkosh
| Quote: | What are the advantages and, if substantial, can the Sensenich blades
be retro fitted to an original Airmaster configuration...?
|
I believe (but cannot confirm absolutely) that the Airmaster/Sensenich
combo is a two bladed configuration.
Anyone interested in props and going to Oshkosh may want to check out
Hanger C at booth 3109 and take a look at the Vari Prop exhibit; Vari
Prop is owned by Larry Morgan, a past contributor on europa-list (see
archive post below) and (I believe) the guy who got stiffed for a full
kit when Europa went belly up. Larry will have a three blade CS set up
for RV's w/ rather exotic blades designed by Paul Lipps. Paul has
written me that Larry would be very interested in producing something
specific for the Europa.
Fred
| Quote: | From: < lmorgan822(at)aol.com >
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: RE: Propeller discussions
|
| Quote: | >
> Hi Jos,
>
> We have both a marine and aircraft prop. We have not built our web
site
> for the A/C prop yet. This weekend I am testing a 4 bladed variant
on a
> T-51 with a Rotax 914. We have 2, 3, and 4 bladed props, and two hub
> sizes. The larger hubs are designed for the direct drive engines in
the
> 180 to 350 HP, the smaller hubs are designed for the Rotax, Jabiru,
etc,
> although currently running on a 200 HP Chevy V6 in an RV6 with a
reduction drive.
>
> I am the owner of the company. We are an Oregon LLC.
>
> If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact
me at
> lmorgan822(at)hotmail.com. 503-804-5508.
>
> Thank you for your inquiry.
>
> Larry Morgan
>
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jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues |
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Hey Fred,
I cannot go to Osh. but can you keep us advised on this. I would be
very interested in the Paul Lipps design. You can give Larry my e-mail
or phone if you want.
Thanks,
Jeff Roberts
N128LJ
On Jul 17, 2007, at 5:03 PM, Fred Klein wrote:
| Quote: |
> What have you heard about the Airmaster/Sensenich combination?
It will be unveiled at Oshkosh
> What are the advantages and, if substantial, can the Sensenich blades
> be retro fitted to an original Airmaster configuration...?
I believe (but cannot confirm absolutely) that the Airmaster/Sensenich
combo is a two bladed configuration.
Anyone interested in props and going to Oshkosh may want to check out
Hanger C at booth 3109 and take a look at the Vari Prop exhibit; Vari
Prop is owned by Larry Morgan, a past contributor on europa-list (see
archive post below) and (I believe) the guy who got stiffed for a full
kit when Europa went belly up. Larry will have a three blade CS set up
for RV's w/ rather exotic blades designed by Paul Lipps. Paul has
written me that Larry would be very interested in producing something
specific for the Europa.
Fred
> From: < lmorgan822(at)aol.com >
> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 7:16 AM
> Subject: Re: RE: Propeller discussions
>
> >
> > Hi Jos,
> >
> > We have both a marine and aircraft prop. We have not built our web
> site
> > for the A/C prop yet. This weekend I am testing a 4 bladed variant
> on a
> > T-51 with a Rotax 914. We have 2, 3, and 4 bladed props, and two
> hub
> > sizes. The larger hubs are designed for the direct drive engines
> in the
> > 180 to 350 HP, the smaller hubs are designed for the Rotax, Jabiru,
> etc,
> > although currently running on a 200 HP Chevy V6 in an RV6 with a
> reduction drive.
> >
> > I am the owner of the company. We are an Oregon LLC.
> >
> > If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact
> me at
> > lmorgan822(at)hotmail.com. 503-804-5508.
> >
> > Thank you for your inquiry.
> >
> > Larry Morgan
> >
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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gcrowder2
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues |
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Oooooh - that sounds good! Hi Fred, have you heard anything back from Paul Lipps or
are you just going to wait and see what Vari Prop comes up with?
Glenn
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:03:27 -0700
Subject: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues
From: fklein(at)orcasonline.com
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
.ExternalClass .EC_EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}
| Quote: | What have you heard about the Airmaster/Sensenich combination?
It will be unveiled at Oshkosh
What are the advantages and, if substantial, can the Sensenich blades be retro fitted to an original Airmaster configuration...?
I believe (but cannot confirm absolutely) that the Airmaster/Sensenich combo is a two bladed configuration.
Anyone interested in props and going to Oshkosh may want to check out Hanger C at booth 3109 and take a look at the Vari Prop exhibit; Vari Prop is owned by Larry Morgan, a past contributor on europa-list (see archive post below) and (I believe) the guy who got stiffed for a full kit when Europa went belly up. Larry will have a three blade CS set up for RV's w/ rather exotic blades designed by Paul Lipps. Paul has written me that Larry would be very interested in producing something specific for the Europa.
Fred
From: < lmorgan822(at)aol.com >
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: RE: Propeller discussions
> --> Europa-List message posted by: lmorgan822(at)aol.com >
> Hi Jos,
>
| Quote: | We have both a marine and aircraft prop. We have not built our web site
for the A/C prop yet. This weekend I am testing a 4 bladed variant on a
T-51 with a Rotax 914. We have 2, 3, and 4 bladed props, and two hub
sizes. The larger hubs are designed for the direct drive engines in the
180 to 350 HP, the smaller hubs are designed for the Rotax, Jabiru, etc,
although currently running on a 200 HP Chevy V6 in an RV6 with a reduction drive.
I am the owner of the company. We are an Oregon LLC.
If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me at
> lmorgan822(at)hotmail.com. 503-804-5508.
|
>
> Thank you for your inquiry.
>
> Larry Morgan
&nww.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronicsp; =====
|
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! [quote][b]
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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues |
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|
On Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 04:40 PM, glenn crowder wrote:
| Quote: | Oooooh - that sounds good! Hi Fred, have you heard anything back from
Paul Lipps or
are you just going to wait and see what Vari Prop comes up with?
Glenn
|
Glenn, Jeff,
I'll try to briefly recap my communications w/ Paul Lipps vis a vis a
prop for the Europa. My interest was piqued a while back by Mike
Gregory's post referring to an article on Elippse props at:
www.batterson.net/EAA499/Issue77_8-13.pdf
(If anyone wants to read more of what Paul has to say about props and
can digest the esoteric technical issues of prop design, go to:
www.vansairforce.com/community/printthread.php?t=18593 and scroll down
to "elippse".)
(For background on my correspondence w/ Lipps, see my europa-list post
of May 29, 2007.)
I emailed Paul and he's interested in designing something for us; here
is the last email from him:
| Quote: | From: "Paul Lipps" <elippse(at)sbcglobal.net>
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:21:36 AM US/Pacific
To: "Fred Klein" <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>
Subject: Re: prop for Europa
Hello, Fred!
The apologies should be mine for not getting back to you sooner than
this. I've been caught up in a flurry of activity designing a couple of
props for biplane guys, plus working on the EFI I designed for Klaus
Savier.
Now to try to answer your questions. To get a good estimate of the
plane's
equivalent parasite drag area, I need to have accurate speed and
thrust of
the plane in level flight. Thrust is obtained from the engine power
and the
prop efficiency. I have to have a model of the prop to see how it
converts
engine power into thrust during the test period, which I don't have
for the
Airmaster. But even though the Great American isn't the best, I do
have a
good model of it in my equations. As far as Glenn's plane is
concerned, if I
can get the engine power and if his cowling and cooling system drag is
not
much different from the other Europas, that shouldn't be a problem. As
far
as cruise and climb efficiency is concerned, the three-blade prop on my
125HP Lancair shows about 82% efficiency in a climb and about 90% in
cruise.
This climb efficiency is probably better that most FP props are in
cruise.
BUT, my blade design has low static and low-speed thrust, so that the
initial run up to 45-55 mph is much slower, than on a 200 mph prop. On
a
prop for a slower plane, with lower pitch, that might be to 30-40 mph.
But
it will take a longer takeoff run, maybe as much as 50%. But once you
get
past this blade stall region, as Tom Aberle puts it, it's like it has
cut in
the afterburner. My compensation would be a royalty paid by the prop
maker
on subsequent prop sales. Larry Morgan of Vari-Prop has entered into an
agreement with me for the design of blades for his CS and GA prop
hubs. He
will be showing the three-blade RV prop at Golden West at the end of
this
month and at Oshkosh. (Can't get myself to write that strange name
they've
come up with for the EAA event at Oshkosh!) I'm sure he would be
interested
in the Europa market. lmorgan724(at)yahoo.com, 503 804 5508. Again, please
forgive me for my lack of promptness for this reply. Paul
|
I haven't moved this forward for several reasons. First, before his
ref. to Vari-Prop above, my focus was on FP props and for reasons
described in my May 29 europa-list post, it turned out to be not so
simple to get a FP prop of Paul's design on a Rotax hub. Second, in my
dreams, I've been wondering if there might be a way to get a Lipps
blade working in conjunction w/ an Airmaster CS hub since so many
Europa flyers have them. Then came the rumors of the
Airmaster/Sensenich combination. So I've sort of been waiting for the
dust tosettle...
personally, I'm still trying to get my CM bonded in, so what business
do I have pushing on optimal propellers?
So to sum up, for Lipps to design something specific to the Europa, we
need to get someone to bolt on Paul's Great American prop (w/ an SAE 1
bolt circle) and generate some flight test data. Alternatively, what
Paul's developing for Vari Prop may be just the ticket. I'm happy to be
the point man between Lipps and our Europas, but the ball's in the air
and anyone can catch it and run with it. My apologies for the long
post, but I've referenced other documents to keep it as short as
possible.
Fred
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: Propeller optimization; was: Tail Plane Blues |
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Glenn, Jeff, (All),
Sorry, but there's an error on my earlier post today. I referenced "my
post of May 29, 2007"...I should have referenced Glenn Crowder's post
of May 30 for viewing correspondence I've had with Paul Lipps. (As I
now recall, for some reason I was unable to post to the list on the
29th and I forwarded it to Glenn and asked him to post it.
Fred
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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