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Leveling

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4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:08 am Post subject: Leveling

[quote]  

 Another question!

  

 As I am going through leveling my Fuse, Front Floor, Firewall, Gear Channel, whatever else, I am concerned about my digital gauge reading in only 0.1 incaments. 

  

 A friend suggested using the water hose level as you can literally carry one point to another if your hose is long enough (Long enough hose??? Don't go there!!) 

  

 Have any of you guys used this method before? Any thoughts on leveling before I go any further?

  

 WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?

 I live in the world of measurement in the Automotive Industry and I know when it is close enough for a car body etc. . . When is Close enough good enough for my plane as far as these angular measurements? What is your rule of thumb?

  

 Do not archive

  

 --

Thanks, 

Rich Simmons

[b]

dkbrooks(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:24 am Post subject: Leveling

I have used a water level to do deck construction and it worked great.  The one I got at Home Depot has a small box with a sensor and an alarm that goes off when level is reached so you don't have to be able to see both ends at once (handy for big projects).   



The only issue I would have with my level is accuracy.  In theory, of course, this would be supremely accurate but in reality the meniscus in the plastic tube isn't always uniform all the way around the tube (dirt and dust get in there) so it could be off a millimeter or two.  That is obviously not something I have ever worried about while building decks. 



Just my 2 cents work of experience (1 1/2 cents worth?), your mileage may very well vary.



Do not archive (ok, so how does this work?  and what should and shouldn't be archived?)



Dave

 On 7/18/07, Rich Simmons <4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net (4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		     

  

  	  Quote: 	
		    

 Another question!

  

 As I am going through leveling my Fuse, Front Floor, Firewall, Gear Channel, whatever else, I am concerned about my digital gauge reading in only 0.1 incaments. 

  

 A friend suggested using the water hose level as you can literally carry one point to another if your hose is long enough (Long enough hose??? Don't go there!!) 

  

 Have any of you guys used this method before? Any thoughts on leveling before I go any further?

  

 WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?

 I live in the world of measurement in the Automotive Industry and I know when it is close enough for a car body etc. . . When is Close enough good enough for my plane as far as these angular measurements? What is your rule of thumb? 

  

 Do not archive

  

 --

Thanks, 

Rich Simmons

	
  



[/b] 	


[b]

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: Leveling

Hi Rich,

Leveling things at distance with a clear water hose is fine, gear, 

fuselage etc.  For wing leveling, and control surfaces, use a bubble level

or a tool that measures reliably in degrees.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive



Rich Simmons wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

     Another question!

      

     As I am going through leveling my Fuse, Front Floor, Firewall,

     Gear Channel, whatever else, I am concerned about my digital gauge

     reading in only 0.1 incaments.

      

     A friend suggested using the water hose level as you can literally

     carry one point to another if your hose is long enough (Long

     enough hose??? Don't go there!!)

      

     Have any of you guys used this method before? Any thoughts on

     leveling before I go any further?

      

     WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?

     I live in the world of measurement in the Automotive Industry and

     I know when it is close enough for a car body etc. . . When is

     Close enough good enough for my plane as far as these angular

     measurements? What is your rule of thumb?

      

     Do not archive

      

     --

     Thanks,

     Rich Simmons

flydad57(at)neo.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: Leveling

I got a Black and Decker, self leveling laser level  at Big Lots for $39.  Works great.  Checked it with my $300 unit and  it checked out perfectly.  

  

  

 Bob Taylor

Wadsworth, Ohio

N657RT, Res.



 [quote]   ---

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: Leveling

making the miniscus less of an indicating variable is exactly why you put the red food coloring in the water...



David Brooks <dkbrooks(at)gmail.com> wrote:  [quote]I have used a water level to do deck construction and it worked great.  The one I got at Home Depot has a small box with a sensor and an alarm that goes off when level is reached so you don't have to be able to see both ends at once (handy for big projects).  



The only issue I would have with my level is accuracy.  In theory, of course, this would be supremely accurate but in reality the meniscus in the plastic tube isn't always uniform all the way around the tube (dirt and dust get in there) so it could be off a millimeter or two.  That is obviously not something I have ever worried about while building decks. 



Just my 2 cents work of experience (1 1/2 cents  worth?), your mileage may very well vary.



Do not archive (ok, so how does this work?  and what should and shouldn't be archived?)



Dave

  On 7/18/07, Rich Simmons <4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net (4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net)> wrote:  [quote]     

   

  [quote]   

  Another question!

   

  As I am going through leveling my Fuse, Front Floor, Firewall, Gear Channel, whatever else, I am concerned about my digital gauge reading in only 0.1 incaments. 

   

  A friend suggested using the water hose level as you can literally carry one point to another if your hose is  Don't be flakey. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43909/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail]Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile[/url] and 

[url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43909/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail]always stay connected[/url] to friends. [quote][b]

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: Leveling

Rich,  

I think you will be fine. I think my new craftsman digital is good to 0.2 deg. Good enough for me. Another builder on this list told me a story recently. He was having trouble getting his firewall dead on. He called Caleb at ZAC, and explained that he had it to within 0.5 of a degree. He laughed and said, “Wow, we haven’t gotten one that close yet”.   

     

Kevin Bonds  

Nashville TN  

601XL Plans building.  

http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds  

   

do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE   

     

   

    

   

  

        

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rich Simmons

 Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:03 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: FW: Leveling  

  

     

   

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

   

    

Another question!  

    

   

    

As I am going through leveling my Fuse, Front Floor, Firewall, Gear Channel, whatever else, I am concerned about my digital gauge reading in only 0.1 incaments.   

    

   

    

A friend suggested using the water hose level as you can literally carry one point to another if your hose is long enough (Long enough hose??? Don't go there!!)   

    

   

    

Have any of you guys used this method before? Any thoughts on leveling before I go any further?  

    

   

    

WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?  

    

I live in the world of measurement in the Automotive Industry and I know when it is close enough for a car body etc. . . When is Close enough good enough for my plane as far as these angular measurements? What is your rule of thumb?  

    

   

    

Do not archive  

    

   

    

--

 Thanks, 

 Rich Simmons  

    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4

       [quote][b]

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

dkbrooks(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: Leveling

Does the red food coloring reduce the surface tension of the water (and thereby making the meniscus 'smaller') or does it just make it easier to see the bottom of the 'bowl'?  If it doesn't make the meniscus smaller then the little alarm box thingie probably would still have some inaccuracies.   



I am asking out of real curiosity, not to be snarky.  I think that others have suggested better tools for the job anyway and I really doubt that this sort of accuracy will ever be necessary in my fence & deck projects.  But this is exactly the sort of thing that I much prefer to ponder than the real work that is piling up around me on my desk. 



Dave

On 7/18/07, David Downey <planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com (planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:[quote] making the miniscus less of an indicating variable is exactly why you put the red food coloring in the water...



David Brooks < dkbrooks(at)gmail.com (dkbrooks(at)gmail.com)> wrote:   	  Quote: 	
		  I have used a water level to do deck construction and it worked great.  The one I got at Home Depot has a small box with a sensor and an alarm that goes off when level is reached so you don't have to be able to see both ends at once (handy for big projects).   



The only issue I would have with my level is accuracy.  In theory, of course, this would be supremely accurate but in reality the meniscus in the plastic tube isn't always uniform all the way around the tube (dirt and dust get in there) so it could be off a millimeter or two.  That is obviously not something I have ever worried about while building decks.  



Just my 2 cents work of experience (1 1/2 cents  worth?), your mileage may very well vary.



Do not archive (ok, so how does this work?  and what should and shouldn't be archived?)



Dave

   On 7/18/07, Rich Simmons <4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net (4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net)> wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		       



	


	
[b]

crvsecretary

Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Naugatuck, CT

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: Leveling

The food coloring should be water-based, so I cannot see how it would  change the surface tension of the water....if it was alcohol-based I think you  might have a good point.  I add just a few drops of food coloring into my  water level just to give my eyes a break and make the meniscus easier to  see.

  

 As far as the alarm being affected by the food coloring I am not in a  position to say.

  

 Tracy Smith

 601XL N458XL (reserved)

 working on wings

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 7/18/2007 11:26:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,  dkbrooks(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Does the    red food coloring reduce the surface tension of the water (and thereby making    the meniscus 'smaller') or does it just make it easier to see the bottom of    the 'bowl'?  If it doesn't make the meniscus smaller then the little    alarm box thingie probably would still have some inaccuracies.  



I    am asking out of real curiosity, not to be snarky.  I think that others    have suggested better tools for the job anyway and I really doubt that this    sort of accuracy will ever be necessary in my fence & deck projects.     But this is exactly the sort of thing that I much prefer to ponder than the    real work that is piling up around me on my desk. 



Dave

   On 7/18/07, David    Downey <planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com (planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com)>    wrote:     	  Quote: 	
		  making      the miniscus less of an indicating variable is exactly why you put the red      food coloring in the water...



David Brooks <      dkbrooks(at)gmail.com (dkbrooks(at)gmail.com)> wrote:       	  Quote: 	
		  I have used a water level to do deck construction and it worked        great.  The one I got at Home Depot has a small box with a sensor and        an alarm that goes off when level is reached so you don't have to be able        to see both ends at once (handy for big projects).  



The only        issue I would have with my level is accuracy.  In theory, of course,        this would be supremely accurate but in reality the meniscus in the        plastic tube isn't always uniform all the way around the tube (dirt and        dust get in there) so it could be off a millimeter or two.  That is        obviously not something I have ever worried about while building decks.        



Just my 2 cents work of experience (1 1/2 cents worth?), your        mileage may very well vary.



Do not archive (ok, so how does this        work?  and what should and shouldn't be        archived?)



Dave



               	  Quote: 	
		                     



	


	
	


	


 

  



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

_________________
Zenith 601XL N458XL (reserved)
Naugatuck, CT
Tail Complete; working on wings

gboothe(at)calply.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: Leveling

The coloring only makes it easier to see. If you have no bubbles (let the water level set for a few hours after filling), and always read to the bottom of the meniscus, you will be incredibly accurate. The Zenith airplanes were designed for building with a minimum of tools. It is doubtful that the rest of a homebuilder’s construction would be that exact, any how.  

   

     

Gary Boothe 

 Cool, CA 

 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

 Tail done, wings done, working on c-section       

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Brooks

 Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:21 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: FW: Leveling  

  

   

Does the red food coloring reduce the surface tension of the water (and thereby making the meniscus 'smaller') or does it just make it easier to see the bottom of the 'bowl'?  If it doesn't make the meniscus smaller then the little alarm box thingie probably would still have some inaccuracies.  

 

 I am asking out of real curiosity, not to be snarky.  I think that others have suggested better tools for the job anyway and I really doubt that this sort of accuracy will ever be necessary in my fence & deck projects.  But this is exactly the sort of thing that I much prefer to ponder than the real work that is piling up around me on my desk. 

 

 Dave    

On 7/18/07, David Downey <planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com (planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:  

making the miniscus less of an indicating variable is exactly why you put the red food coloring in the water...

 

 David Brooks < dkbrooks(at)gmail.com (dkbrooks(at)gmail.com)> wrote:   

I have used a water level to do deck construction and it worked great.  The one I got at Home Depot has a small box with a sensor and an alarm that goes off when level is reached so you don't have to be able to see both ends at once (handy for big projects).  

 

 The only issue I would have with my level is accuracy.  In theory, of course, this would be supremely accurate but in reality the meniscus in the plastic tube isn't always uniform all the way around the tube (dirt and dust get in there) so it could be off a millimeter or two.  That is obviously not something I have ever worried about while building decks. 

 

 Just my 2 cents work of experience (1 1/2 cents worth?), your mileage may very well vary.

 

 Do not archive (ok, so how does this work?  and what should and shouldn't be archived?)

 

 Dave    

On 7/18/07, Rich Simmons <4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net (4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net)> wrote:       

   

  

  

  

  

    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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        [quote][b]

DaveG601XL

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Cincinnati, Oh

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Leveling

Wow, I only used the angle templates and bubble levels as shown in the assembly guides.  I doubt my bubble levels are accurate to 0.1 degrees.  I did at least make sure that all three of my levels agreed with each other.  



If you see me flying by all catty-whompus (warning: technical term) then I guess I did it all wrong.  I will not know how it flies for another year or two though.



Good luck,

_________________
David Gallagher
Cincinnati, OH area

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: Leveling

Have beer and go with the digital level.



Dred



---- Rich Simmons <4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 Another question!

 

 As I am going through leveling my Fuse, Front Floor, Firewall, Gear Channel, whatever else, I am concerned about my digital gauge reading in only 0.1 incaments. 

 

 A friend suggested using the water hose level as you can literally carry one point to another if your hose is long enough (Long enough hose??? Don't go there!!) 

 

 Have any of you guys used this method before? Any thoughts on leveling before I go any further?

 

 WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?

 I live in the world of measurement in the Automotive Industry and I know when it is close enough for a car body etc. . . When is Close enough good enough for my plane as far as these angular measurements? What is your rule of thumb?

 

 Do not archive

 

 --

 Thanks, 

 Rich Simmons

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:48 am Post subject: Leveling

I still like the beer and digital level technique. If the plane flies in circles at least you won't get far from the airport and get lost! Honestly guys, if you can get the parts to within even .2 to .3 degrees of what the drawings call for, you should be fine.



Send flowers after I crash,



Dred



---- DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Wow, I only used the angle templates and bubble levels as shown in the assembly guides.  I doubt my bubble levels are accurate to 0.1 degrees.  I did at least make sure that all three of my levels agreed with each other.  

 

 If you see me flying by all catty-whompus (warning: technical term) then I guess I did it all wrong.  I will not know how it flies for another year or two though.

 

 Good luck,

 

 --------

 David Gallagher

 601 XL, tail and wings completed,

 fueslage almost done, engine next.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=124606#124606

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: Leveling

the reason I mentioned it is that I love water levels - they always work (unless you have a kink or other blockage - ask how I know this...). I also think I can get inside 1/32" pretty easily. Th ebetter levels have 3/4" diameter tubing at the indicating ends. When you use colored water, the "bowl" as you aptly described it is flat bottomed and you can sight right through the meniscus (probably won't be as easy now that I have old eyes). Unless you have a machinists level it is really hard to get that kind of precision. Certainly do not ever consider using a line level...



David Brooks <dkbrooks(at)gmail.com> wrote:  [quote]Does the red food coloring reduce the surface tension of the water (and thereby making the meniscus 'smaller') or does it just make it easier to see the bottom of the 'bowl'?  If it doesn't make the meniscus smaller then the  little alarm box thingie probably would still have some inaccuracies.  



I am asking out of real curiosity, not to be snarky.  I think that others have suggested better tools for the job anyway and I really doubt that this sort of accuracy will ever be necessary in my fence & deck projects.  But this is exactly the sort of thing that I much prefer to ponder than the real work that is piling up around me on my desk. 



Dave

  On 7/18/07, David Downey <planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com (planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:  [quote]making the miniscus less of an indicating variable is exactly why you put the red food coloring in the water...



David Brooks < dkbrooks(at)gmail.com (dkbrooks(at)gmail.com)> wrote:   [quote]I have used a water level to do deck construction and it worked great.  The one I got at Home Depot has a small box with a sensor and an alarm that goes off when level is reached so you don't have to be able to see both ends at once (handy for big projects).  



The only issue I would have with my level is accuracy.  In theory, of course, this would be supremely accurate but in reality the meniscus in the plastic tube isn't always uniform all the way around the tube (dirt and dust get in there) so it could be off a millimeter or two.  That is obviously not something I have ever worried about while building decks. 



Just my 2 cents work of experience (1 1/2 cents worth?), your mileage may very well vary.



Do not archive (ok, so how       Get the Yahoo! toolbar and [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48225/*http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php]be alerted to new email [/url]wherever you're surfing.  [quote][b]

psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:38 am Post subject: Leveling

At 11:09 AM 7/18/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  If you see me flying by all catty-whompus (warning: technical term) 

then I guess I did it all wrong.  I will not know how it flies for 

another year or two though.


	




Actually, I learned many years ago when trying to learn RC airplane 

piloting that anything will fly.  After the first few major crashes, 

my airplanes tended to be very crooked contraptions held together by 

large globs of epoxy glue.  They still flew just fine.  Well, perhaps 

their airspeed wasn't quite as good as when they were new.



For leveling my work bench I used one of the home depot style laser 

levels.  I used this to insert shims under 2 x 4 cross pieces on top 

of my work bench.  This gave me a 12 foot long by four foot wide work 

space where the top edges of the 2 x 4s were level to within 1 mm throughout.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive

milreed(at)wildblue.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:56 am Post subject: Leveling

I check my level by switching ends on the same  surface. Do you folks think that would work? I never have asked an  expert about that yet (since I thought about that in 1958 and ended up  in a big argument). If the bubble is in the same place ok, if not you have an  error? right?? 

 Mil  

    [quote][b]

crvsecretary

Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Naugatuck, CT

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: Leveling

Yes, your method is absolutely correct.

  

 If there is an imperfection in the glass tube the bubble should hang up  there; since the sample location does not change, but the bubble DOES, it's time  to get a new level.

  

 I always check my level at first use as well.  

  

 I can't imagine what the arguement could be.....

  

 Tracy

  

  

 In a message dated 7/19/2007 12:57:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,  milreed(at)wildblue.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     I check my level by switching ends on the    same surface. Do you folks think that would work? I never have asked an    expert about that yet (since I thought about that in 1958 and ended    up in a big argument). If the bubble is in the same place ok, if not you have    an error? right?? 

   Mil  

	


 

  



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

_________________
Zenith 601XL N458XL (reserved)
Naugatuck, CT
Tail Complete; working on wings

4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:58 am Post subject: Leveling

Sheez! It's a wonder the knowledege that can flow from . . . nevermind!

  

 Actually, I got some really good information off the list from list users.

  

 Thanks. The water/tube method for leveling those far away places works awsome.

  

 Now, whne I fly, I wont have to add a lot of left/right/up/down trim like I too have had to do to my R/C planeas that I repaired after crashing because I had too many beers and could only fly in circles around the runway till I lnaded/crashed or crashed landed!.

  

 Really, thanks to those with the useful information and to the others, thanks for the laughs!

  

 --

Thanks, 

Rich Simmons

  [quote][b]

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