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TP6 Bonding

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Bryan Allsop

Joined: 29 Jun 2007
Posts: 78

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: TP6 Bonding

Clearly our friends at the PFA had to do something to put their minds at rest. They did mod 73!

  

 They have made it clear that they do not necessarily blame disbonding as the source of the accident. The excercise of installing mod 73 has caused all of us to make a very thorough check of the bond. We can be confident that our aircraft are sound as a result.

  

 Should it transpire that no TP6's have disbonded it will have illustrated that there was not much wrong with the design. So, Why is'nt someone requesting feedback from each aeroplane. Was your tube disbonded when you checked it, or not?

  

 If the PFA are not researching this information, may I suggest that the Europa Club should do so? It would not be difficult to carry out such a survey, and the result could be posted to this listing quite quickly. I am confident that such a survey would give many of the doubters a great deal of reassurance.

  

 Meanwhile, I join David Joyce in having every confidence in the tailplane of my little lady, and I look forward to mounting her again very soon.

  

 Bryan Allsop G BYSA (Sadie).

See what you’re getting into…before you go there. Check it out!  [quote][b]

jron.jones(at)tiscali.co.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: TP6 Bonding

Good thinking, Brian.

 My TP6's were solid - an excellent bond. (Built by  a good builder - wonder who that could be?)

  

 Regards,

 Ron Jones (G-RJWX, XS No.  359)

  [quote][b]

steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject: TP6 Bonding

Ladies and Gentlemen,

 I completed Mod 73 today and can report that I  could find no faults in the TP6 bonding, after 50 hours of flight.

 That said, I have taken the opportunity to improve  the pip pin hole as well ( as mine had failed the earlier criteria) and this has  given me a good chance to ferret around inside the tailplanes. The only downside  is that I now need longer pip pins and Richard Holder is obliging with this  order.

 I would also report that I can find no slop in  the tailplanes, trim tabs or mass balance weight, the latter may have been  helped by the retention of turnbuckles and outrigger wires to the mass balance  arm ensuring no sideways movement.

 As I am not an engineer I am not able to argue  the merits of various options/modifications that have been discussed on this  forum. However I remain totally happy with my choice of the Europa, totally  committed to supporting the marque and other owners wherever I can, and  comforted by the knowledge that the Europa has thousands of hours successful  flight in many parts of the world and in many capable (and not so capable) hands  giving pleasure to all that come into contact with the  brand.   

 I look forward to getting my aircraft through its Inspection and meeting up  with many of you before this flying season ends.

 Regards

 Steve Pitt G-SMDH Europa Trigear XS

   [quote][b]

jthursby(at)tampabay.rr.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject: TP6 Bonding

-

roger.mills(at)btinternet
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:15 am Post subject: TP6 Bonding

Like Bryan and Bob Harrison, I too found an excellent bond between rib and TP6 and agree with Bryan's point about feedback - here's some more which might help others:

   

   

  1. I agree with the guidance in mod 73 not to use power tools - I used hand tools and was glad I did, the foam is easily damaged.

   

  2. Having had (I thought) almost 3/8" play at the tailplane trailing edge, I intended to do mod 62 at the same time as mod 73. Having extracted the torque tube from the fuselage, I find that the pins are reasonably tight and there is significantly less TP12 to TP4 play than first thought. Investigation shows that there is some wear between  the TP11s and TP12s which contributes to the play observed on the aircraft. After 440 hours, TP11 appears to be hardly worn but there is a visible track worn into TP12 and some eccentricity (a bit like its owner?). I have seen  the same wear pattern on other online photographs of TP12s - so I'm not alone! Since Mod 62 might not lead to a significant improvement, I'm tending towards not doing it until there is more wear - to avoid risking ending up with the a similar degree of play and nowhere else to go (apart from Bob's clamp mod maybe). Presumably TP11 to TP12 wear is not as critical as TP12 to TP4 - assuming good mass balance? Which leads to the next point:

   

  3. While the tailplanes and torque tube were out of the aircraft I decided to do a check of the mass balance and was surprised to find the assembly 78g too heavy at the weight end. I genuinely thought I had achieved a good re-balance in situ after mod 70 but the friction in the control system was enough to mask the imbalance. How many more Europas are like this and might it have contributed to the accident? 

  Since correct mass balance is so critical and removal of the  torque tube (albeit a pain) takes less than a day's work, it might be worth doing this at the same time as mod 73 - giving the advantage of peace of mind and also being able to use your own torque tube for a better layup than wrapping tape around plastic pipe as some have suggested?

   

  Hope this helps!

   

  Roger Mills

   

Roger Mills 

07921140616

 [quote][b]

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:04 am Post subject: TP6 Bonding

Roger,

  

 I am willing to stand corrected but my understanding is  that the balancing should be done with the torque tube "in situ" and with the  rest of the control system connected.

  

 The control system forward of the  torque tube horn will have a bearing on the overall balance of the pitch installation. Disconnecting this IMHO will give a less than  optimum setup.

  

 Carl Pattinson

 G-LABS

 [quote]    

   3. While the tailplanes and torque tube were out of the aircraft I    decided to do a check of the mass balance and was surprised to find the    assembly 78g too heavy at the weight end. I genuinely thought I had achieved    a good re-balance in situ after mod 70 but the friction in the control    system was enough to mask the imbalance. How many more Europas are like this    and might it have contributed to the accident? 

   Since correct mass balance is so critical and removal of the torque tube    (albeit a pain) takes less than a day's work, it might be worth doing    this at the same time as mod 73 - giving the advantage of peace of mind and    also being able to use your own torque tube for a better layup than    wrapping tape around plastic pipe as some have suggested?

    

   Hope this helps!

    

   Roger Mills

    

   Roger Mills    

07921140616

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	
[b]

jimnaylor.44(at)virgin.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:23 am Post subject: TP6 Bonding

Roger,

  

 I think you will find that the apparent wear on  your TP12 is in fact where it was ground by the manufacturers to true up the  original tube. I have seen a new, complete assembly that has never been fitted  with apparent wear marks, but on closer examination it cam be seen to be a ridge  left after grinding. The TP12's on my own a/c were never ground very well,  with the result when I grasp the torque tube and rock it, I have a slight  movement up and down, but nothing in the horizontal plane.

  

 Jim

 [quote]   ---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:27 pm Post subject: TP6 Bonding

Carl

I could be corrected too but imho because the rest of the pitch control 

system only moves fore and aft it won't influence balance, so I would 

think balancing disconnected is OK. The rest of system will affect 

natural resonant frequency but not the initial response due to G loading.

Tell me if I' wrong?

Graham



Carl Pattinson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Roger,

  

 I am willing to stand corrected but my understanding is that the 

 balancing should be done with the torque tube "in situ" and with the 

 rest of the control system connected.

  

 The control system forward of the torque tube horn will have a bearing 

 on the overall balance of the pitch installation. Disconnecting this 

 IMHO will give a less than optimum setup.

  

 Carl Pattinson

 G-LABS

 

      

     3. While the tailplanes and torque tube were out of the aircraft I

     decided to do a check of the mass balance and was surprised to find

     the assembly 78g too heavy at the weight end. I genuinely thought I

     had achieved a good re-balance in situ after mod 70 but the friction

     in the control system was enough to mask the imbalance. How many

     more Europas are like this and might it have contributed to the

     accident?

     Since correct mass balance is so critical and removal of the torque

     tube (albeit a pain) takes less than a day's work, it might be worth

     doing this at the same time as mod 73 - giving the advantage of

     peace of mind and also being able to use your own torque tube for a

     better layup than wrapping tape around plastic pipe as some have

     suggested?

      

     Hope this helps!

      

     Roger Mills

      

 

 

     /Roger Mills

     07921140616/

 

 *

 

 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 

 *

 

 *

 

 

 *


	


-- 

Graham Singleton



Tel: +441629820187

Mob: +447739582005

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject: TP6 Bonding

Graham,



I wouldnt dream of telling you you are wrong.



If anyone is likely to know the answer it would be you.



Regards,



Carl.



---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: TP6 Bonding

Carl

you are too kind but unfortunatel on this occasion I wasn't quite right! 

    Forgot the effect of the trim tab Tee bar

Graham



Carl Pattinson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>

 

 Graham,

 

 I wouldnt dream of telling you you are wrong.

 

 If anyone is likely to know the answer it would be you.

 

 Regards,

 

 Carl.

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