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flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:55 am Post subject: high oil temp

Hello everyone.  I just flew from Florida to California and had a  

serious oil temp issue.  The temperatures are very hot across  

southern part of the country so I am not sure if this is to be expected.



I am seeing 220 climbing through 5000 and need to lower the nose and  

climb only at 300 fpm to keep the temp from climbing higher.  This is  

even worse after a fuel stop when the engine gets soaked with heat.



I used to have to watch my CHT but now it is the oil temp limiting my  

performance.



Does anyone else have similar issues at this time of the year?



I have no modifications to the cowl and have Vans FWF stuff.



Thanks,

Rob Kermanj

deutscht(at)rhwhotels.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:22 am Post subject: high oil temp

What were your temps for crusie and at what altitude?



--

Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: high oil temp

I see the same thing on very hot days.  I can usually climb out at 800 ft/min until the oil get to 225, then I back off to 500 ft/min.  Once I'm at attitude (around 8500 - 12500) the temps are around 190 using 70 - 75% power.  Your right that it really limits your performance because of the oil temp while the cylinder temps are fine.  I have the stock Van's cowl and oil cooler and I have seal up by baffling very well and RTV'ed everywhere.  My next thoughts are to possibly install another louver just under where the oil cooler is to provide more exit air for it.  The other option is to swap the oil cooler out, but that a $500 cost.



Thank You

Ray Doerr

40250

N519RV



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: high oil temp

Other than this flight, what were you used to seeing in the past.

I saw my most drastic difference in oil temps at OSH 2007 when

I had to fly slow flight at about 85kts for 10-15 minutes,

and it very slowly climbed to 217 degrees.  But that was with

4 guys over 220 lbs, and slow flight.  As soon as we picked up

speed it went down.  Pretty much proves Scott's theory on

loaded planes and airflow and heat.



Interestingly, I got a note from a flying James cowl'd -10

builder who said he's running 230-240.  Not sure of how

perfected the installation is.



When I'm not loaded like the above, I'm not seeing any problems

even into the 90's, but I can imagine if you were flying in

the SouthWest in the summer, things could be a bit tougher

to deal with there.  If you're going to fly in that area

commonly, I'd not only ensure you have all the tweaking to

get good cooling you can get, but also perhaps add more

ventilation that you can tape over or mechanically close when

you fly to cooler places.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Rob Kermanj wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hello everyone.  I just flew from Florida to California and had a 

 serious oil temp issue.  The temperatures are very hot across southern 

 part of the country so I am not sure if this is to be expected.

 

 I am seeing 220 climbing through 5000 and need to lower the nose and 

 climb only at 300 fpm to keep the temp from climbing higher.  This is 

 even worse after a fuel stop when the engine gets soaked with heat.

 

 I used to have to watch my CHT but now it is the oil temp limiting my 

 performance.

 

 Does anyone else have similar issues at this time of the year?

 

 I have no modifications to the cowl and have Vans FWF stuff.

 

 Thanks,

 Rob Kermanj

pilotdds(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: high oil temp

I had similar problems that disapeared with the oil cooler made by the air-conditioning folks and marketed by Alex De dominicis.10 degree reduction and much quicker cooling after climb.Temps have been well over 100 in our valley.

 

 --

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: high oil temp

I see the same thing.  I did everything Tim and Vic did to their baffles and Tim and I actually did a side by side oil temp / CHT comparison at Oshkosh after running at full power for a minute or so and we were almost exactly the same.  I find that oil temp is the limiting factor in climb out.  When I climb out now, it is very rare for me to see 400 F on my #2 cylinder before my oil temps start to approach 220.   Like others have said, the cheapest and probably best initial solution would be the addition of louvers on the bottom of the cowl.   

 

 Make sure you read this section on Tim's site and really seal the baffle up nicely. 

 http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/maintenance/20061022/index.html

  

Scott Schmidt

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com  



 ---

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:00 am Post subject: high oil temp

The NDM/Kintex (aka Niagara) cooler that Van's sells is a knock off of a SW cooler and isn't the most efficient, or so I've been told.  The SW cooler has a patented fin design with higher density and better heat transfer.  Unfortunately you are correct that the SW cooler is about $550 plus a core charge.  If I still lived in Texas or elsewhere in the scorching hot regions, I would give real consideration to leaving the Van's cooler off the kit order and get a Stewart Warner from someone like Pacific Oil Coolers.



Michael Sausen



--

flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: high oil temp

Cruise at 185 F at 12,500.



Thanks.



On Aug 2, 2007, at 10:19 AM, Tom Deutsch wrote:



[quote] 

 <deutscht(at)rhwhotels.com>



 What were your temps for crusie and at what altitude?



 --

flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: high oil temp

Does this oil cooler fit or did you have to modify things?

Thanks, Rob.



On Aug 2, 2007, at 10:58 AM, pilotdds(at)aol.com (pilotdds(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]I had similar problems that disapeared with the oil cooler made by the air-conditioning folks and marketed by Alex De dominicis.10 degree reduction and much quicker cooling after climb.Temps have been well over 100 in our valley.

 

 --

flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: high oil temp

I had 2500 Ibs of load and I am sure it had an effect on the oil  

temp.  I am normally on joy rides and do not climb high in Florida.   

Also, In Florida, outside temps drop quickly as you leave the ground.

I am used to seeing no more than 200 F but again, not loaded and not  

climbing high.

Thanks.

Rob.

On Aug 2, 2007, at 10:38 AM, Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Other than this flight, what were you used to seeing in the past.

 I saw my most drastic difference in oil temps at OSH 2007 when

 I had to fly slow flight at about 85kts for 10-15 minutes,

 and it very slowly climbed to 217 degrees.  But that was with

 4 guys over 220 lbs, and slow flight.  As soon as we picked up

 speed it went down.  Pretty much proves Scott's theory on

 loaded planes and airflow and heat.

 Interestingly, I got a note from a flying James cowl'd -10

 builder who said he's running 230-240.  Not sure of how

 perfected the installation is.

 When I'm not loaded like the above, I'm not seeing any problems

 even into the 90's, but I can imagine if you were flying in

 the SouthWest in the summer, things could be a bit tougher

 to deal with there.  If you're going to fly in that area

 commonly, I'd not only ensure you have all the tweaking to

 get good cooling you can get, but also perhaps add more

 ventilation that you can tape over or mechanically close when

 you fly to cooler places.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 Rob Kermanj wrote:

> 

> Hello everyone.  I just flew from Florida to California and had a  

> serious oil temp issue.  The temperatures are very hot across  

> southern part of the country so I am not sure if this is to be  

> expected.

> I am seeing 220 climbing through 5000 and need to lower the nose  

> and climb only at 300 fpm to keep the temp from climbing higher.   

> This is even worse after a fuel stop when the engine gets soaked  

> with heat.

> I used to have to watch my CHT but now it is the oil temp limiting  

> my performance.

> Does anyone else have similar issues at this time of the year?

> I have no modifications to the cowl and have Vans FWF stuff.

> Thanks,

> Rob Kermanj

flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: high oil temp

It is comforting to know that you have a similar situation.  I was  

starting to think that perhaps our neighborhood birds were taking  

residence inside the scat tube, on top of my oil cooler.



What would I swop my oil cooler with?



Thanks, Rob.



On Aug 2, 2007, at 10:26 AM, Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:



[quote] 

 <Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com>



 	I see the same thing on very hot days.  I can usually climb out at  

 800 ft/min until the oil get to 225, then I back off to 500 ft/ 

 min.  Once I'm at attitude (around 8500 - 12500) the temps are  

 around 190 using 70 - 75% power.  Your right that it really limits  

 your performance because of the oil temp while the cylinder temps  

 are fine.  I have the stock Van's cowl and oil cooler and I have  

 seal up by baffling very well and RTV'ed everywhere.  My next  

 thoughts are to possibly install another louver just under where  

 the oil cooler is to provide more exit air for it.  The other  

 option is to swap the oil cooler out, but that a $500 cost.



 Thank You

 Ray Doerr

 40250

 N519RV



 --

flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: high oil temp

Thanks for the info.  I am beginning to see that it may not just be my problem.

do not archive,



Thanks, rob.



On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:34 PM, Scott Schmidt wrote:

[quote]

I see the same thing.  I did everything Tim and Vic did to their baffles and Tim and I actually did a side by side oil temp / CHT comparison at Oshkosh after running at full power for a minute or so and we were almost exactly the same.  I find that oil temp is the limiting factor in climb out.  When I climb out now, it is very rare for me to see 400 F on my #2 cylinder before my oil temps start to approach 220.   Like others have said, the cheapest and probably best initial solution would be the addition of louvers on the bottom of the cowl.   

 

Make sure you read this section on Tim's site and really seal the baffle up nicely.

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/maintenance/20061022/index.html

 

Scott Schmidt

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com (scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com)



---

pilotdds(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: high oil temp

It was a direct replacement-simple install-I bought louvres but did not feel I needed them after the new oil cooler.I did remove the dams on 1 and two.

 

 

 --

ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: high oil temp

I have the louvers on the bottom of the cowl..........they do work.  If you just install the SW cooler and do NOT put in the louvers don't expect much of a change.  AMF when I talked to the people selling the "better" oil cooler for $500 they would not promise cooler oil temps without adding the louvers.  Airflow over the cooler is the issue in the RV10...........NOT the cooler itself. 

IMHO   Dean  805HL 



________________________________________________________________________

 /2-2125045-32">Get Juno DSL - the easier, safer broadband!



    [quote][b]

pilotdds(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: high oil temp

In my humble experience ,verified with before and after testing ,the oil cooler without the louvres do improve cooling.I installed the cooler with the intent of placing the louvres later and found it unnecesary.The heating of the firewall seems to cause the oil cooler to become a heat sink .Additional airflow over the cooler can only help but may not be necesary.On sat 7-21 I was held on the ground for 40 minutes in 106 degree heat,oil temp reached 228 on the ground.On release and 1000 fpm climbout ,110 mph ,three large men aboard temp went to 207.Leveling at 5500 temp went to 195.

 Hope this helps

 

 --

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: high oil temp

Whoooo---eeee, 106 degree heat on the ground for 40 minutes!?!?!

Did you see a guy in red with a pitchfork and horns around you?

I can't even imagine the suffering!



At least you cooled it down by flying though.  Regardless of

the cooler or louvres, ground running is going to make an engine

hot. Glad you were able to get to better temps though.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

pilotdds(at)aol.com wrote:

[quote] In my humble experience ,verified with before and after testing ,the oil 

 cooler without the louvres do improve cooling.I installed the cooler 

 with the intent of placing the louvres later and found it unnecesary.The 

 heating of the firewall seems to cause the oil cooler to become a heat 

 sink .Additional airflow over the cooler can only help but may not be 

 necesary.On sat 7-21 I was held on the ground for 40 minutes in 106 

 degree heat,oil temp reached 228 on the ground.On release and 1000 fpm 

 climbout ,110 mph ,three large men aboard temp went to 207.Leveling at 

 5500 temp went to 195.

 Hope this helps

 

 --

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: high oil temp

Dean, you are the first builder to post that the issue is not necessarily the VANS (Niagra) cooler, it is the lack of meaningful two-way discussion on the total process of aircraft engine cooling.  The factors are the difference in pressure between the upper cowl (High) and the lower exit point (Low) and the differences in temperature which allow convective cooling to take place.  As you ARE the manufacturer of the final product, a simple design would be to temporarily take a length of flexible dryer ducting from the rear baffle exit and route it “most directly” to the discharge point between the headers and under the cabin floor.  You may start to see where I am going with this thread.  

   

No rocket science is needed to conclude the mount location and angle of the oil cooler (heat exchanger) is compromised by the circuitous and convoluted path offered by the VANS parts supplier.  

   

Now on to “A” solution but certainly not the only one.  Lopresti.  For the 110+ builders who attended the LoPresti OSH seminar which was an improvement, and embellishment of this same subject of three years ago.  (Sorry for the rehash). There are lots of tricks (their words) that can be done to correct the perceived problem.  Even GAMI has gotten into the act to improve baffling and Delta P and Delta Ts on poorly designed systems on certified aircraft.  Curt Lopresti, stood before the group and answered a question from Builder Paul Grimstad #450,on a cowl for the RV-10.  Contrary to what one person posted here.  Curt responded that “Lopresti IS looking into a product which would go along with their landing light and wingtip options for the 10”.  

   

Which manufacturer gets it consistently right – Cirrus.  Go steal some of their ideas.  

   

For those who simply want the facts and couldn’t pull themselves away from watching the RV formation over flight, I will retype all of the PowerPoint presentation and send it to Tim for the permanent RV University files.  However, Curt did say (just like three years ago) that they would post the entire presentation (with pretty pictures) on the company website.  It as yet, has not happened.  So I will plagiarize for Tim in a separate document.  Lopresti cowls, unlike the James cowls have lots of scientific research and product development behind them.  Many certified airframe manufacturers offer their Lopresti products as an approved STC replacement.  They (LoPresti) say that controllable cowl fins are critically important to speed performance and cooling control.  The new Mooney Ovation is being delivered with a LoPresti engineered cowl which is built by Composites Unlimited of Scappoose, OR for certified production on each Ovation.  Don’t get me wrong – the James cowl is sexy but is it is no way a clone of a LoPresti designed system.  With work like Deems Davis is doing, you might just get the best of both company efforts.  To my understanding the James Cowl is the only current alternative to the VANS offering.  

   

The cooler is one point of correction.  The installation location, consistent with unrestricted flow is another.  Control of the Delta P and Delta T is another.  “Controllable” Cowl flaps are another.  Testing of the product and retesting is another.  The life expectancy of your Top End ($$$) is a direct relationship to keeping the temperatures within the range that aluminum products like to operate.   On that, there is still no consensus.  

   

 You all, as the ultimate manufacturers, have lots of arrows in your quiver to correct high operating temperatures short of just showing the engine with excess 100LL.  It’s about caressing the air flow for your intended purpose.  For those of you who do not dare deviate from the VANS directions and parts, the plane still climbs just great and is a true thrill to fly.    

   

Is anyone else willing to engage with Dean on this subject?  

   

John Cox - #600  

   

Do not Archive  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1(at)juno.com

 Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 3:29 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: high oil temp  

  

   

I have the louvers on the bottom of the cowl..........they do work.  If you just install the SW cooler and do NOT put in the louvers don't expect much of a change.  AMF when I talked to the people selling the "better" oil cooler for $500 they would not promise cooler oil temps without adding the louvers.  Airflow over the cooler is the issue in the RV10...........NOT the cooler itself.  

IMHO   Dean  805HL  



 

 ________________________________________________________________________

 /2-2125045-32">Get Juno DSL - the easier, safer broadband!  [quote]   [b]

bill@airflow

Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 7

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: high oil temp

This is my first time to post and am not sure of the protocol, but there is some clarification required of some of the info posted re high oil temps on the RV-10: The oil coolers from â€œthe air conditioning companyâ€ are made by Airflow Systems and are available from Airflow (949-218-9701) or Alex De Dominicis or Aircraft Spruce.  You do not have to have the louvers to realize better oil temps with the new oil cooler, but when mounted on the SIDE of the lower cowl the louvers do improve CHTs and oil temps to a greater degree (unintended pun), especially in climb. Louvers on the bottom help, but not as much as on the side. Also, the oil coolers are not $500.00, retail is $427.00 and for the month of August they include a free set of louvers when ordered from Airflow or Alex. 



Contrary to one statement, there is a substantial difference in the performance of the various oil coolers when the flow rates (cooling air and oil) are the same.  We have verified this in multiple tests on different RV-10s with and without louvers, as well as bench testing.



There is much room for improvement on the RV-10 engine air management and my prediction is that the final version of the cooler install will be significantly different than what is used now. There is no reason an aircraft of this capability should not perform better on a hot day.



I have the louvers on the bottom of the cowl..........they do work.  If 

> you just install the SW cooler and do NOT put in the louvers don't 

> expect much of a change.  AMF when I talked to the people selling the 

> "better" oil cooler for $500 they would not promise cooler oil temps 

> without adding the louvers.  Airflow over the cooler is the issue in the 

> RV10...........NOT the cooler itself.

> IMHO   Dean  805HL

ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: high oil temp

Bill, 

Thanks for your reply on this issue.  It would benefit everyone on this list if you would share your data on the oil cooler.  How much temps decrease?  How was the testing conducted? Temps? Humidity? aircraft? hours tested? etc.  What is significant temp reduction?  Most posts on this list are anedotal responses based on limited personal experience or that of a few friends.  Hearing your professional experience and the extensive testing procedures of this issue would be of value.  Just like discussions on PROP performance it is hard to replicate a CREDIBLE test or side by side tests, so please share your details to assist all us builders deciding what we can do to improve our aircraft. 

Thanks, 

Dean 805HL 



________________________________________________________________________

 /2-2125045-32">Get Juno DSL - the easier, safer broadband!



    [quote][b]

flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:31 am Post subject: high oil temp

Thank you for the info.

Rob.

Do not archive

On Aug 2, 2007, at 4:20 PM, pilotdds(at)aol.com (pilotdds(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]It was a direct replacement-simple install-I bought louvres but did not feel I needed them after the new oil cooler.I did remove the dams on 1 and two.

 

 

 --

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