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tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
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 Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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It has been really HOT here in NW Tennessee for the past few weeks (high 90ies low 100s) and will also be hot next week. When I flew a few days ago I came back soaked in sweat, a lot more than usual. Today I had promised a flight to father of a friend of mine for his 93rd birthday.
Last night at Wal-Mart, I saw a portable "Cool Box" Personal Air Conditioner for $49. It was similar in concept to the ones being sold for about $500 in that you put in ice and it has a fan blowing air over the ice. It is not as big as the expensive ones. It also has a "mist" setting (which would probably be great in desert dry hot air). It can be run from 8 D cells, plugged into house current using an adaptor, or better yet, it comes with a power plug-in for 12 V. It has two fan settings.
Because of the age of my passenger and the relative low cost, I bought one to see how it would perform in my XL.
I easily fits behind the seats in the cargo compartment (I bungeed it in) and it did work to lower the temps to a more comfortable range for me and my passenger - for about an hour (OAT was 95F). (Box says it will lower temps 30F) You could tell when all the ice had melted from the temp/sweat increase inside the XL. There was no apparent RFI from the fan.
The box the unit came in has a net address of WWW.o2-cool.com, .
Down side (besides only being good for about an hour) is that there was a lot of condensate/water on the outside of the unit which did "moisturize" my cargo carpet. I will glue on some insulation to the outside of the unit.
For those still building, I had Installed a power plug behind the seat backs and also one up front near the consol. (Usually have the one behind the seat backs reserved for my portable Nav/Com.) I also installed structural pick-ups for bungees etc in my cargo compartment.
Tony Graziano
601XL/Jab3300; N493TG; 271 hours
[quote][b]
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t_fogelson(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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That would be nice to remove the heat soak in the
cockpit, and then get you up to altitude where the air
is cooler. Half of my past flying has been done in
temperatures in excess of 100, then it's take the
doors off and if your still soaked with sweat just fly
a little out of trim to encourage a breeze through the
cockpit till you get to altitude.
Terry
--- "T. Graziano" <tonyplane(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
It has been really HOT here in NW Tennessee for the
past few weeks (high 90ies low 100s) and will also
be hot next week. When I flew a few days ago I came
back soaked in sweat, a lot more than usual. Today
I had promised a flight to father of a friend of
mine for his 93rd birthday.
Last night at Wal-Mart, I saw a portable "Cool Box"
Personal Air Conditioner for $49. It was similar in
concept to the ones being sold for about $500 in
that you put in ice and it has a fan blowing air
over the ice. It is not as big as the expensive
ones. It also has a "mist" setting (which would
probably be great in desert dry hot air). It can be
run from 8 D cells, plugged into house current using
an adaptor, or better yet, it comes with a power
plug-in for 12 V. It has two fan settings.
Because of the age of my passenger and the relative
low cost, I bought one to see how it would perform
in my XL.
I easily fits behind the seats in the cargo
compartment (I bungeed it in) and it did work to
lower the temps to a more comfortable range for me
and my passenger - for about an hour (OAT was 95F).
(Box says it will lower temps 30F) You could tell
when all the ice had melted from the temp/sweat
increase inside the XL. There was no apparent RFI
from the fan.
The box the unit came in has a net address of
WWW.o2-cool.com, .
Down side (besides only being good for about an
hour) is that there was a lot of condensate/water on
the outside of the unit which did "moisturize" my
cargo carpet. I will glue on some insulation to the
outside of the unit.
For those still building, I had Installed a power
plug behind the seat backs and also one up front
near the consol. (Usually have the one behind the
seat backs reserved for my portable Nav/Com.) I
also installed structural pick-ups for bungees etc
in my cargo compartment.
Tony Graziano
601XL/Jab3300; N493TG; 271 hours
|
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
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ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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Just curious Tony... I am 61 and don't just "vault" in and out of an XL. How did your 93 year old passenger fare??? LOL
Terry Turnquist
Do not archive!
"T. Graziano" <tonyplane(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
[quote]
It has been really HOT here in NW Tennessee for the past few weeks (high 90ies low 100s) and will also be hot next week. When I flew a few days ago I came back soaked in sweat, a lot more than usual. Today I had promised a flight to father of a friend of mine for his 93rd birthday.
Last night at Wal-Mart, I saw a portable "Cool Box" Personal Air Conditioner for $49. It was similar in concept to the ones being sold for about $500 in that you put in ice and it has a fan blowing air over the ice. It is not as big as the expensive ones. It also has a "mist" setting (which would probably be great in desert dry hot air). It can be run from 8 D cells, plugged into house current using an adaptor, or better yet, it comes with a power plug-in for 12 V. It has two fan settings.
Because of the age of my passenger and the relative low cost, I bought one to see how it would perform in my XL.
I easily fits behind the seats in the cargo compartment (I bungeed it in) and it did work to lower the temps to a more comfortable range for me and my passenger - for about an hour (OAT was 95F). (Box says it will lower temps 30F) You could tell when all the ice had melted from the temp/sweat increase inside the XL. There was no apparent RFI from the fan.
The box the unit came in has a net address of WWW.o2-cool.com, .
Down side (besides only being good for about an hour) is that there was a lot of condensate/water on the outside of the unit which did "moisturize" my cargo carpet. I will glue on some insulation to the outside of the unit.
For those still building, I had Installed a power plug behind the seat backs
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rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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Members,
Be advised, the type of cooling machine described does not work in a high humidity area. It just makes the humidity worse. A real air conditioner removes moisture rather than adding it. Here in Central Texas the humidity is very high so I would add a small air conditioner to my XL cockpit if I could find a small one that would work on 12 volts.
Tracy Stone
Harker Heights, Tx
[quote] ---
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chris Sinfield
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 270
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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Nice Idea and used when required
what about water (humidity) getting into all the avionics if you used it a lot? would that cause corrosion to the circut boards?
Just a thought??
Chris..
searching Ebay
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rsteele(at)rjsit.com
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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I haven't seen this unit, but the Arctic Air uses a head exchanger so
that air doesn't blow directly over the ice. It will actually remove
humidity, which condenses out on the head exchanger.
I Wonder if the guts of this think could be put into a larger
cooler? Seems like it my be a handy way to "clone" an Arctic Air
without sourcing all all the parts.
Ron
On Aug 11, 2007, at 8:16 PM, chris Sinfield wrote:
| Quote: |
<chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com.au>
Nice Idea and used when required
what about water (humidity) getting into all the avionics if you
used it a lot? would that cause corrosion to the circut boards?
Just a thought??
Chris..
searching Ebay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=128667#128667
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dave.thompson(at)verizon.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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See the attached link:
http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007081216021283&item=1-2335-A&catname=electric
It is for a 12VDC thermal transducer, the same type used in the 12VDC drink coolers. I always wondered if several could be put into a plenum. Divide the hot side and the cold side, and perhaps use a muffin fan. The hot could be vented overboard. You could even make duct valves to let in ram air and even switch from hot to cold. If it works, you could possibly adapt a control panel from the auto junkyard.
I think that the biggest draw back would be rate of heat transfer from the heat sink to the moving air. Of course, another draw back of any air conditioning system would be weight. I have never used one of these devices, so I have no technical knowledge of them. Someday I plan to purchase one and make a test plenum out of cardboard to see if it works.
Has anyone experimented with one? Is this idea feasible?
[quote][b]
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pilot4pay
Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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I have worked extensively with peltier devices (solid state heat pump). They were part of black body systems (Infra-Red energy source) used to calibrate various laboratory and military grade IR sensors. Typical single layer installation (they can be stacked to increase the delta-T) can give up to a -40 to +50 degree C delta T. Delta T is proportional to current, and heat or cool dependant on polarity. The Peltier device must be extensively heat sinked, and the stack must be carefully assembled, or the device will be damaged. The units from the food cooler/heaters are of relatively low power capacity, much too small for cooling a cockpit and are not designed to actually change the temperature of the food, but only to maintain something that was already cooled as cool or vise a versa.
A TE systems of the size necessary to effectively cool, or even be powerful enough to have a sensible effect in the cockpit would be 1-expensive in the initial cost of parts, 2- require engineering to effectively heat sink, 3 require large amounts of current resulting in greater demands on your electrical system, 4-require a temperature/TE control system, further complicating the engineering effort. You will need a lot of those food coolers to make a difference in the cockpit.
TEs (thermoelectrics) are generally used where small devices or spot cooling is needed, like a computer chip, CCD imagers, and small volume applications (a food cooler/warmer). While they have been used in military applications for large volume applications, there is usually an unlimited source of both tax dollars and electrical energy available for the system. I'll spare the math for the sake of brevity, but there are much more practical solutions for cooling, particularly if cost is a factor.
My advice: save your time and money, if you are looking for cooling capacity, look at the small air-conditioners used to cool electrical cabinets, (might be able to find them in electrical salvage/auctions) and use an inverter rated to supply the AC to the compressor motor, or convert an automotive AC unit to run off a belt or accessory case drive.
CS
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Thompson
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 5:29 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner
See the attached link:
http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007081216021283&item=1-2335-A&catname=electric
It is for a 12VDC thermal transducer, the same type used in the 12VDC drink coolers. I always wondered if several could be put into a plenum. Divide the hot side and the cold side, and perhaps use a muffin fan. The hot could be vented overboard. You could even make duct valves to let in ram air and even switch from hot to cold. If it works, you could possibly adapt a control panel from the auto junkyard.
I think that the biggest draw back would be rate of heat transfer from the heat sink to the moving air. Of course, another draw back of any air conditioning system would be weight. I have never used one of these devices, so I have no technical knowledge of them. Someday I plan to purchase one and make a test plenum out of cardboard to see if it works.
Has anyone experimented with one? Is this idea feasible?
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
[b]
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_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078
"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin |
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Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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In a message dated 8/12/2007 9:33:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, pilot4profit(at)sbcglobal.net writes:
| Quote: | | conditioners used to cool electrical cabinets, (might be able to find them in electrical salvage/auctions) and |
Why not just use a 25 pound can of feron in place of the motor and compressor. You then only need a heat exchanger in the cabin. Jerry of GA
[quote][b]
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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Greetings Mr. Smith,
I'm toying with the idea of cooling enough air to stick a tube into the front of my shirt to provide a little cooling, say 15 deg F. below ambient. Can you recommend any sources of information for the fundamentals of TE utilization.
Thanks,
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
"Hope for the best,
but prepare for the worst."
do not archive
[quote] ---
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pilot4pay
Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:32 am Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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try http://www.ferrotec.com/technology/thermoelectric/
remember that from any intake air source that you reduce in temperature, there will be the water condensing. You will need to find a way to keep it from the TE wafer itself, and provide a drainage path from your cooling heat sink.
CS
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of raymondj
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 12:09 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner
Greetings Mr. Smith,
I'm toying with the idea of cooling enough air to stick a tube into the front of my shirt to provide a little cooling, say 15 deg F. below ambient. Can you recommend any sources of information for the fundamentals of TE utilization.
Thanks,
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
"Hope for the best,
but prepare for the worst."
do not archive
[quote][b]
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_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078
"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin |
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pilot4pay
Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:34 am Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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You mean Freon? you're joking here, yes?
CS
Do not archive
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 10:57 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner
In a message dated 8/12/2007 9:33:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, pilot4profit(at)sbcglobal.net writes:
| Quote: | | conditioners used to cool electrical cabinets, (might be able to find them in electrical salvage/auctions) and |
Why not just use a 25 pound can of feron in place of the motor and compressor. You then only need a heat exchanger in the cabin. Jerry of GA
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
[b]
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Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078
"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin |
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Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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Yes -No, it was do in an aircraft in Houston,TX. No cheap, but it worked. Not sure if the Green people would approve - BUT Jerry of Ga
Do not archive
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
[quote][b]
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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Be interesting to see what's going on in a 12 volt cooler. http://www.compactappliance.com/xq/JSP.detailmain/Koolatron_Compact_18_Quart_12_Volt_Cooler/itemID.846/itemType.PRODUCT/iMainCat.28/iSubCat.62/iProductID.846/qx/shopping/product/P20.htm
Wonder if there's some way to use the internals on one (or two, or three) to make an air conditioner for a 601.
Getting colder
http://www.roadtrucker.com/engel/engel-12-volt-acdc-refrigerator-freezer.htm
http://www.coolerstores.com/12v-freezers-103-ctg.htm?gclid=CIiV1eOQ840CFSgQFQod9D-YLw
Looky here. Duct the heat exchanger out the bottom of the plane, fit a fan in it and a couple of duct holes and fit this badboy between the seats on a dual stick 601xl and you have an armrest and an air conditioner. $45, pretty sweet.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vector-VEC245-Portable-Super-Travel-Cooler-Warmer-17-LT_W0QQitemZ200140009402QQihZ010QQcategoryZ73335QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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You do realize that the area between the seats of a dual stick 601 isn't emtpy right? Every thing that is in the single stick is still there minus the Y-stick.
That aside these things weigh a ton. My wife saw the ones that were in last months Aviation Consumer and thought them a great idea until I explained how many fewer shoes she'd get to carry if we had it on board.
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W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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Pull out the guts and make a new box for it. You're only interested in the cooling parts anyway, not the box itself. How much does it weigh? 15 pounds. That's not too bad for a mini refrigerator. Besides, it would mount right at the CG. I think it's a pretty cool idea, no pun intended. May actually work well. Bet there'd be a market for a 1000BTU A/C unit for small planes that didn't cost a fortune and only hooked into the electrical harness instead of a belt system that connected to the flywheel on the engine. I can think of several ways to make one that would cost about $50 in parts.
| Gig Giacona wrote: | You do realize that the area between the seats of a dual stick 601 isn't emtpy right? Every thing that is in the single stick is still there minus the Y-stick.
That aside these things weigh a ton. My wife saw the ones that were in last months Aviation Consumer and thought them a great idea until I explained how many fewer shoes she'd get to carry if we had it on board.
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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http://www.flightlineac.com/vans_aircraft_kits
$6,000, you gotta be kidding me. This is nothing more than a retro-fitted A/C system out of junkyard for $100 with certain key components remade out of the aluminum. Looks just like the A/C parts for my 1985 Nissan pickup.
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joe(at)kfiz.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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Guys,
I like these posts about an air conditioned 601! Most of us up here in
Wisconsin wouldn't need this, but for the folks down south, I can see where
this would be useful! I am building my 601 with the 6 cyl Jab and no vacuum
pump with lightweight instruments. If a guy could put together an air
conditioning system that weighed in under 20 LBS, why not!
At the Oshkosh convention I went to the John Deere booth and looked at some
small tractors with enclosed cabins and noticed they were air conditioned. I
checked under the hood and found a very small compressor, dryer, condenser,
and many other very small parts in comparison to the ones found in the
automobile industry. How cool is that!
The air conditioner in your car is way overbuilt and way more powerfull than
needed because they are designed to rapidly cool the car for instant relief!
If you could scale down the system with smaller parts, lighter weight fans,
and safety changes such as clutch disengagement with 80% or more throttle so
it would be disconnected for takeoff and climb, you might have something for
a homebuilt airplane.
Hot rod magazines and parts catalogs sell aftermarket air conditioning units
with the fan box, firewall fittings, etc. All you would have to do is design
an attachment for a pully or direct drive for the back of the Jabaru where
the air pump is located!
When I was building my PT-2, Steve Wittman would come over in the evenings
and inspect my work. One night he said to me, "do you know how much weight
that seat upholstery adds to the airplane" He built his seats simmilar to
lawn chair webbing. I plan on keeping my 601 forever, and I don't mind a
little extra weight to be comfortable. Lots of upholstery, sound deading
insulation, radios, etc. 20 LBS of air conditioning may raise a few
eyebrows, but I would do it!
I just watched a Modern Marvels show on TV about sticky stuff! They showed a
product by 3M that was a foam based tape. They had 2 aluminum panels, one
riveted, and one taped and riveted. They hit it with a bowling ball until it
completely failed. The taped panel was 20 times stronger than the untaped
panel! The PT-2 airplane kit used this tape to bond the ribs to the skin,
then pop rivets were used. I made a mistake and had to remove one of the
ribs. It took all night with laquer thinner and a utility knife blade to
remove it. The tape was 2 faced and very thin. It's used in the automotive
industry to apply chrome strips. The TV show showed them using it in
building construction! If CH reads these posts, I sure would like to get his
reaction on using this tape for the wings on a 601.
Joe in Oshkosh
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:53 am Post subject: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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Andy,
I'd not recommend a 12-V Cooler for anything like the cockpit of a 601.
The simple plate area and fan are dependent upon a small area that
recirculates air for a period of about 12 -24 hours to do any serious
cooling. The mix of heat in a 601 would absorb the cool air so quickly
that it'd be like putting a bag of frozen Popsicles in the plane. Once
melted, you'd have never noticed a difference, even on a 80-degree day.
The materials are very light, as is the typical performance output of a
12-V cooler.
You'd be better off drinking lots of ice water just before a flight.{;<)
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
ashontz wrote:
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Zodiac 601XL Air Conditioner |
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| joe(at)kfiz.com wrote: | At the Oshkosh convention I went to the John Deere booth and looked at some
small tractors with enclosed cabins and noticed they were air conditioned. I
checked under the hood and found a very small compressor, dryer, condenser,
and many other very small parts in comparison to the ones found in the
automobile industry. How cool is that!
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Cool idea. I hadn't thought of them. Yeah, car A/Cs are overkill. I wouldn't be surprised if a small John Deer could be run off a 12-volt motor instead of coupled directly to the engine via a pulley.
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