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Emag Wiring

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Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:11 am Post subject: Emag Wiring

Mike,

 Since you invited comment, I will.

  

 I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to limit the  variables as much as possible at this juncture in their progress.  They are  working out the bugs in their new system and adding other wiring methods to the  mix doesn't help them resolve problems.  If I were in their position, I  would recommend builders use only the company recommended wiring procedure and  if the builder deviates from that recommendation then the builder should not  expect Emag assistance to resolve problems.  I believe that would not be  unreasonable.  I believe that would be true of any company selling a  product - if the buyer deviates from recommended installation, then the company  cannot assist.

  

 I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am wiring them with two  hidden 3A switched circuit breakers to provide power from the bus and two  panel-mounted p-lead switches.  I wired it this way because the Emag  installation manual says "You can check the internal alternator operation on the  P model during run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to the P model ignition and  cutting 12 volt power (not the p-lead switch) at the breaker."

  

 I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring procedure -  despite Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended technique.  Even Bob often  says contact the manufacturer and follow their recommendations.

  

 I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any  indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two Pmags on  their internal alternators.  For example, when I'm doing the mag check with  14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn  off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will  there be an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not  working?

 Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because if  one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be to switch  each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on one internal  alternator.

  

 Experimental aviation is challenging.  Fortunately, the original OBAM  builders (the Wright brothers) succeeded with each challenge.  Surely we  can, too.

  

 Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that you live in  Alaska.  My son in moving to AK in spring of next year to fly the F-22 and  we are looking for a Piper Pacer to put on floats.  Any leads?

  

 Stan Sutterfield

 www.rv-8a.net

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  Erich,



I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past    weekend and I asked him

about this very same issue.



First the    caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim to know a whole lot    about

electrical theory or application. What I am is curious and I do have    an E and

a P/mag.



After reading everything I can get my hands on and    studying the Z figures Z-13

and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I    can detect only subtle differences.



Emag powers the mags directly from    the main bus, so when you turn on the master

there is power at the mags.    The switches on the panel for the emags are for P-lead

kill switches. To do    maintenance (timing) all you have to do is turn on

the master and leave the    panel switch off. But to check the alternator part of

the P-Mag you have to    put a separate switch in line with the power supply to

the mag. When you do    a run up check, you turn this switch off and if all is well

the motor keeps    on humming.



Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The    positions on the switch are

down is off, middle is for internal power, up    is for ships power. In the Z-33

schematic you then have to add a switch    (and possibly a light) to be able to

cut the P-lead so you can do    maintenance (Timing). So to do the internal alternator

check all you have    to do is flick the switch to the middle position and

if all is well you    can't tell the difference.



So what's the big difference. Both systems    use 3 switches. Both systems do the

same thing just in slightly different    ways.



Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system where each    mag has it's own

P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be    pretty easy. Master on,

both switches in the up position, mash the start    button. 



But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to see what    he has to say about

this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around    visiting the sights. He

has assured me that when he gets back he will dig    into this and  provide help.



I have sent an email to Emagair    asking the same questions. Open dialog on this

question can only help us    and Emagair greatly. 



I have not personally heard from the guys at    Emagair nor have I read anything directly

from them concerning this issue.    Until I do I will keep an open mind.

Perhaps this issue is a    non-event and some of the problems stem from us folks in

the field still    trying to make these new  mags act like the old style. For    instance

how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. Perhaps    the answer

is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in how this    turns out.



Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated.    



Mike Ice 	


 

  



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peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: Emag Wiring

Stan,

 

I have been running an E-mag for 3 years and have also swapped in a

P-mag at times. My view is the best way to wire a P-mag is to route the

power via a switched breaker, that minimizes the number of connections.

If ship's power is shut off to a P-mag whose generator is not working,

then the P-mag will act like an E-mag and will not work. If you turn off

the p-lead switch to the other mag, the engine will quit. There is no

magic here, 2 P-mags are completely independent of each other. Checking

both generators is relatively easy, during the run up use the p-lead

switch to stop one P-mag from generating sparks, note the rpm drop

(there will be one); now turn off the switched breaker (thereby shutting

off ship's power to the P-mag), if the engine continues to run at the

same rpm then all is well. If the engine falters or runs roughly all is

not well and the generator is suspect. Turn the switched breaker back on

and repeat on the other P-mag. I've never had a problem with the

generator and would recommend anyone considering an E/P-mag to buy a

P-mag. With 2 P-mags fitted the failure of one generator is no big deal

as the battery will keep the ignition running if the ship's alternator

were to fail.

 

The P-mag generator does not produce current all of the time (so

E-magair tell me), only when the bus voltage falls below a pre-set

level. The P-mag will use the highest voltage source available. I don't

consider that a warning light showing P-mag generator failure will be

worthwhile when a ground check will provide the same information and it

is not a critical failure that requires immediate attention.

 

To answer your specific questions,

 

I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any

indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two

Pmags on their internal alternators.  

 

No, there is no indication. Each P-mag doesn't know (and doesn't care)

the other is there.

 

For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and

both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead

switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be

an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working?

 

Best not to remove ship's power from both P-mags at once, switch off

power in turn when the p-lead switch is turned off. If the P-mag

internal alternator is failed and ship's power is removed the engine

will quit if the other mag's p-lead is switched off.

 

Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because

if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be

to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on

one internal alternator.

 

There will be, and yes, your right, but you have to do each in turn.

 

I hope this helps, regards, Peter

 

--

aurbo(at)ak.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: Emag Wiring

Stan,

  

 I agree with you that the guys at Emag want to  keep their mags wired the way they designed them. It makes sense to me to follow  their recommendations. I was just wondering out loud about the differences in  the way Bob Nuckolls suggests and the Emag system.

  

 One thing I like about the AeroElectric ideas is  the concept of reducing "parts count". More parts equals more possible trouble.  But in this instance either system uses at least 2 switches for each P-mag, so  it is a wash.

  

 I understand the need for the switch to shut off  the power to the P-mag so you can check the internal alternator but why hide  them? If you hide them will you need a warning light to tell you they are in one  position or another? I have been thinking I might use a toggle switch with an  LED light in the end of it. 

  

 I sent you a personal email about float planes  in Alaska, yes I do live in Anchorage, when your son gets up here tell him we  have a good EAA Chapter www.eaa42.org  .

  

 Mike Ice

  

 [quote]   ---

aurbo(at)ak.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: Emag Wiring

Peter,

  

 Forgive me but I am trying to understand  your sequence of events for checking the p-mag. Perhaps it is semantics but let  me get this straight at least to me.

  

 1. turn off the p-lead (so the mag is  grounded or ungrounded? Emag says to use the P leads as kill  switches)

  

 2. Then turn off the switched breaker (  so now there is no ground and no power? I imagine the engine might run rough  unless the other P-mag is doing the duty of both, I suspect it  could)

  

 Emag says if the engine starts to quit,  don't reapply power to the mag. They say to let the engine stop and let the  ignition fully power down. 

  

 Again, I am not doubting you I am just  trying to clear up some confusing (perhaps only to me)  issues.

  

 Thanks for your help in this  issue.

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

lamphere(at)vabb.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:08 am Post subject: Emag Wiring

Mike,

  

 Unless I have misunderstood the literature that came with my  PMag and Emag, the "P-Lead" is used as a control signal to the  ignition controller circuitry to shut off spark when it is grounded. It is  NOT the main ground to the unit. The power and main ground are  separate leads.

  

 Dave

 [quote]   ---

Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: Emag Wiring

Indeed, it does help.  Thanks for your experienced advice.

 Stan

  	  Quote: 	
		  I hope    this helps, regards, Peter 	


 

  



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: Emag Wiring

Uh oh.  I may have deleted your email regarding the float planes  thinking it was spam.  Please resend it to speedy11(at)aol.com (speedy11(at)aol.com).  Thanks.

  

 I'm hiding the switches (along with others) for security and safety.   Unless one knows where multiple switches are, one cannot start the  aircraft.  Once I've set the switches to one position or the other, they  will not change until I change them.  If they are in the off position, the  engine will not start.  If in the on position, it will.  So, whether  or not the engine will start is my indication of switch position -  even if hidden.  At the end of a flight, adherence to the checklist is  required to ensure they are off.

 Yes, I have more than the normal number of 'failure points,' but as Bob  relates, switches fail more often from lack of use than from overuse or internal  failure.  If my switches fail before start, the engine will not  start.  Once the switch is on, failure is unlikely and the engine will  continue to run.  So, the additional failure points argument doesn't bother  me.

  

 The dialogue is great and I learn more with each discussion.

  

 Stan Sutterfield

 Do not archive

  	  Quote: 	
		  I    understand the need for the switch to shut off the power to the P-mag so    you

can check the internal alternator but why hide them? If you hide them    will you

need a warning light to tell you they are in one position or    another? I have

been thinking I might use a toggle switch with an LED light    in the end of it.

I sent you a personal email about float planes in    Alaska, yes I do live in Anchorage, when your son gets up here tell him we    have a good EAA Chapter www.eaa42.org 	


 

  



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

aurbo(at)ak.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: Emag Wiring

Dave,

  

 Thanks for the post. On the diagram I  have there is no lead labeled Main ground, there is one labeled to ground on engine case. Is this one your calling the  main ground? If so then I agree with you that the power and main ground are  separate leads.

  

 In the instructions that I have for the  e/p mags there is a diagram that shows the wiring sequence. On that diagram it  shows a wire from the connector plug #4 that is labeled  P-lead (Kill Switch). The other end of this wire shows that it is a  ground with the same symbol used with the wire that goes to connector plug  #1.

  

 Perhaps yours is  different?

  

 Once again I am not putting down e/p  mags. I just think (maybe wrongly) that there is some come confusion as to how  to wire these mags. And perhaps I am the only one that is confused, wouldn't be  the first time.

  

 Mike

  

 [quote]   ---

lamphere(at)vabb.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: Emag Wiring

Ok, here we go... page 20 in my documentation has  pin 1 connected to engine case. Since the  case is connected to the ground bus via a nice 4-8 gage flexible braided  wire, it sure seems to me it's a main ground.

  

 Yes, pin 4 is the P-lead (kill  switch) - this is to be connected to the ignition switch pin (L or R)  where you would normally connect a mag. 

  

 Notice that pin 5 is connected to  +13.8vdc. This is what I would call main DC power.

  

 It really is very simple...

  

 Dave

 [quote]   ---

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: Emag Wiring

Mike,

 

I could probably have written a little more clearly. The object is to

get one P-mag running on its internal generator (by removing busbar

power), then cycle the other mag/P-mag to find out if the engine still

runs (I wrote it the other way around). If the engine runs, the

generator is good, if it does not generator is bad.

 

So, probably the best sequence is

 

1.	Carry out normal mag drop check to deduce "normal" mag drop.

Bear in mind there will always be an rpm drop when only a P/E-mag is

running, but that drop won't be as large as when only a magneto is

running.

2.	Shut off busbar power to one P-mag

3.	Switch off/ground other mag/P-mag (so it is not producing

sparks)

4.	Observe engine behaviour. Rpm drop as in 1 above = everything

working fine, other results require investigation.

5.	Restore switches to normal positions if generator is working

fine

6.	Repeat procedure from 2 above for other P-mag, if fitted.

 

I don't check the P-mag generator every flight.

 

Hope this is a little more clear.

 

Peter

 

--

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: Emag Wiring

Yes the confusion is....The P lead is NOT the ground but when you do

ground the Plead it kills the engine. You UN-Ground the P lead to allow

the engine to run.

 

The E/Pmag still needs a power supply and any power supply consists of a

+12V feed and a ground.

 

Thats why there are two grounds shown...terminal 1 is the power ground

that has to be permanently connected to provide power to the unit.

 

Frank

 

RV 7a Pmag/Emag



________________________________



From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David

& Elaine Lamphere

Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:43 AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Emag Wiring

Ok, here we go... page 20 in my documentation has pin 1 connected to

engine case. Since the case is connected to the ground bus via a nice

4-8 gage flexible braided wire, it sure seems to me it's a main ground.

 

Yes, pin 4 is the P-lead (kill switch) - this is to be connected to the

ignition switch pin (L or R) where you would normally connect a mag. 

 

Notice that pin 5 is connected to +13.8vdc. This is what I would call

main DC power.

 

It really is very simple...

 

Dave

	---

aurbo(at)ak.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: Emag Wiring

Frank, 

Yes, I think that is part of the problem for me. I keep trying to relate these mags to the old style and it just doesn't work. But trying to erase many years of old and replacing it with new. Maybe it is age related. 

Thanks for your comments. 

Mike



---

aurbo(at)ak.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: Emag Wiring

Peter, 

Thanks for the list. Clear as a bell now. 

I think I would do as you suggest and not check the P-mag internal alternator every flight either. 

How many hours do you have on your P-mags? Any troubles? 

Mike



---

aurbo(at)ak.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: Emag Wiring

Dave, 

Thanks for the clarification. Words often times confuse the issue. Now we are on the same page. I agree with your statements. Thank you. 

My troubles stem from trying to mix two wiring systems together and they don't mix well. So I believe it is best (for me) to follow the Emag wizards and their reccomendations to the letter. 

One again thanks for helping to clear the fog. 

Mike



---

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: Emag Wiring

I now have around 140 hours total on 3 individual units. I bought the 10th E-mag built as the “factory” (a large shed in Tom’s backyard) was 20 minutes from where I worked. I didn’t have any issues with the 110 series unit. About 16 months ago that unit was replaced foc with a 113 series E-mag, at about the same time I bought a P-mag with the intention of replacing the other mag. The 113 series has always had an intermittent problem on start up where it doesn’t always start up, ie is dead when mag checked and required the power to be cycled to bring it on line (this was before the current issues with powering down while the engine was turning). That was believed to be a firmware problem. When a firmware version update was available I swapped out the E-mag for the P-mag (which has not had any problems) and sent the E-mag back for updating. I have recently re-installed the E-mag (no real reason for the delay in re-installing, just never got around to it), with a similar, but slightly different problem, now evident. I now live a long way from the factory so we’re trying to figure out how best to fix the problem, I’m flying again with the P-mag. Once again the P-mag is trouble free.   

   

Support from the E-magair folks has been outstanding.  

   

Since fitting the E-mag I have gained about 40rpm static, starting is improved (very rarely more than 3 blades) and performance at altitude is definitely better as is the ability to lean more aggressively. I was well aware that I was fitting an experimental ignition system when I installed the first E-mag – that is why I retained one mag, but its never been an issue in flight. I now think the P-mag is an inherently better solution to the ignition problem and would recommend one (or two) to anyone. I’m aware that some others have experienced problems, but E-magair seem committed to fully supporting their products. I am a happy customer.  

   

Peter  

   

O-320 with fixed pitch prop on an RV-6A  

   

--

aurbo(at)ak.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: Emag Wiring

Peter,

  

 Many thanks for your write up on the e/p  mags. I have bought one of each and will begin wiring them very soon.  

  

 Mike

 [quote]   ---

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