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701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

Paul has pretty much hit the nail on the head. This is your plane and you may do whatever you wish to it ( for better or Worse). If you fly your STOL aircraft like a Cessna then adding the VG’s will increase performance. Of this there is very little doubt. However if you learn to fly your STOL aircraft as it was designed and meant to be flown you will actually realize the performance of the slats and be able to perform and exceed the stated #’s for the aircraft. Most of us over the years have seen the 701 perform at the Airshow in the ultralight field. Either with the Rotax 582 or 912. This plane greedily took off in under 50 ft, I have personally seen a 5 ft departure, no magic was performed here, the plane is fully capable of safely performing STOL operations. IT is a matter of learning, can VG’s make the 701 perform better in the hands of a pilot who knows the characteristics, NO they can’t. Does removing the slat increase the cruise of the STOL plane? OF course it does, it removes drag this is a no brainer. Conversely, a 701 has a Vne of 110mph and with simple clean up of high drag area’s such as streamlining the struts you will be able to cruise your 701 at 95-100mph with the 912S installed. Much more then that and your playing too close to the Vne, removing the slats is considered a non approved modification by the designer, plus he ahs a shutter every time you talk to him about it on the 701 because he designed his wings and aircraft specifications with the slats included.   

   

What I’m trying to state is to not waste your money on the VG route, every once and awhile the fellow and his friends who are selling the VG’s state the saving grace of such an upgrade. I don’t dislike this gentleman and believe heartily that VG’s do have a service in other designs. Keep the designers intent of the plane ( after all that is why you built it ) isn’t it? Why else would you build a 701 if it wasn’t for the STOL characteristics. ( Well there is also it’s graceful beauty). Below is the meat of another post of which I agree with, I believe a 701 as designed is safer and far more capable then the altered version. Nonetheless, you need to know how to fly it. Book Time with a seasoned instructor in a 701. Get 5 hrs of dual to fully understand how your plane can perform, you will be much happier and this VG issue will die a quick death as far as the 701 is concerned.   

   

Slats allow for an AOA of 15% or greater in pitch,VGs perform their task at less than 15% AOA on pitch up.  the wing with VGs will stall at a lower speed at 15% AOA and under.  The slat does its magic when you crank the stick back early to get into G.eFFCT. for early take off.  Crank too hard with a VG only and you will, not might, but will stall.  

   

Think about it if the company thought they could get a 701 to take off in shorter distances then it already does don’t you think that they would be SHOWING it off at the Airshows? It already beats everything on the ultralight runway now and I am fully sure that they would love to beat a helicopter if they could. ( imagine the sales they would generate, and the awards)   

   

Money spent on lessons with a qualified 701 instructor will be far better spent then on VG’s. At least in the 701. But , you’re the builder and can listen to whichever camp you desire. I have found on many occasions that the louder camp can sway opinion regardless of the truth. Anyone remember Beta Max Tapes?  

   

     

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)  

www.can-zacaviation.com   

  

   

--

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

If I add slats and VGs to my 601XL, can I cruise at 150 mph then pull back to 15degrees AOA and zoom up to sub-orbital altitude before I stall? It's just a thought..... 



Dred

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

[quote][b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

Two words: JATO bottles. 



dredmoody(at)cox.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 If I add slats and VGs to my 601XL, can I cruise at 150 mph then pull back to 15degrees AOA and zoom up to sub-orbital altitude before I stall? It's just a thought..... 

 

 Dred

 


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

Zenith 601XL N61BM

Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive

Do Not Archive

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

rlalonde

Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 43

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

Beta Max tapes??? Sure wish I knew where to get one of those machines. I was 

one of the many that have tons of those tapes and no machine to transfer 

them to another media with....LOL

Keep you eye out for me....REALLY



ps: I am building to plans....... until I become an aircraft designer!!



Ron



[quote]

Paul has pretty much hit the nail on the head. This is your plane and

you may do whatever you wish to it ( for better or Worse). If you fly

your STOL aircraft like a Cessna then adding the VG’s will increase

performance. Of this there is very little doubt. However if you learn to

fly your STOL aircraft as it was designed and meant to be flown you will

actually realize the performance of the slats and be able to perform and

exceed the stated #’s for the aircraft. Most of us over the years have

seen the 701 perform at the Airshow in the ultralight field. Either with

the Rotax 582 or 912. This plane greedily took off in under 50 ft, I

have personally seen a 5 ft departure, no magic was performed here, the

plane is fully capable of safely performing STOL operations. IT is a

matter of learning, can VG’s make the 701 perform better in the hands of

a pilot who knows the characteristics, NO they can’t. Does removing the

slat increase the cruise of the STOL plane? OF course it does, it

removes drag this is a no brainer. Conversely, a 701 has a Vne of 110mph

and with simple clean up of high drag area’s such as streamlining the

struts you will be able to cruise your 701 at 95-100mph with the 912S

installed. Much more then that and your playing too close to the Vne,

removing the slats is considered a non approved modification by the

designer, plus he ahs a shutter every time you talk to him about it on

the 701 because he designed his wings and aircraft specifications with

the slats included.



What I’m trying to state is to not waste your money on the VG route,

every once and awhile the fellow and his friends who are selling the

VG’s state the saving grace of such an upgrade. I don’t dislike this

gentleman and believe heartily that VG’s do have a service in other

designs. Keep the designers intent of the plane ( after all that is why

you built it ) isn’t it? Why else would you build a 701 if it wasn’t for

the STOL characteristics. ( Well there is also it’s graceful beauty).

Below is the meat of another post of which I agree with, I believe a 701

as designed is safer and far more capable then the altered version.

Nonetheless, you need to know how to fly it. Book Time with a seasoned

instructor in a 701. Get 5 hrs of dual to fully understand how your

plane can perform, you will be much happier and this VG issue will die a

quick death as far as the 701 is concerned.



Slats allow for an AOA of 15% or greater in pitch,VGs perform their task

at less than 15% AOA on pitch up.  the wing with VGs will stall at a

lower speed at 15% AOA and under.  The slat does its magic when you

crank the stick back early to get into G.eFFCT. for early take off.

Crank too hard with a VG only and you will, not might, but will stall.



Think about it if the company thought they could get a 701 to take off

in shorter distances then it already does don’t you think that they

would be SHOWING it off at the Airshows? It already beats everything on

the ultralight runway now and I am fully sure that they would love to

beat a helicopter if they could. ( imagine the sales they would

generate, and the awards)



Money spent on lessons with a qualified 701 instructor will be far

better spent then on VG’s. At least in the 701. But , you’re the builder

and can listen to whichever camp you desire. I have found on many

occasions that the louder camp can sway opinion regardless of the truth.

Anyone remember Beta Max Tapes?

Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

HYPERLINK

"mailto:president(at)can-zacaviation.com"president(at)can-zacaviation.com

HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com



--

Matt Ronics

Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 22

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

As a side point, I think it petty that these people should charge money for such simple things as VGs.  Why not just share the idea and give instructions for other builders (ie in the spirit of the movement).  I see no engineering or data points to substantiate that these things are even adequately applied to the design.  



Snake oil for airplanes?

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

http://search.ebay.com/betamax_W0QQfclZ4QQfnuZ1QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1



 	  rlalonde wrote: 	
		  Beta Max tapes??? Sure wish I knew where to get one 

of those machines. -

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

JerryHey

Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 30

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

To Mark and every one else who responded, thanks.  I will take your advice to hitch a ride in a slated 701.  I live in northeast Indiana but I would drive all day for a demo ride.  It is true that I have never flown a true STOL  aircraft so I do have much to learn.  My background is strictly tail draggers , two Luscombes and a Tailwind and mostly off dirt.  Just 300 hrs.    I have no Cessna time.    Jerry 



 

On Aug 22, 2007, at 11:35 AM, ZodieRocket wrote:

[quote]

Paul has pretty much hit the nail on the head. This is your plane and you may do whatever you wish to it ( for better or Worse). If you fly your STOL aircraft like a Cessna then adding the VG’s will increase performance. Of this there is very little doubt. However if you learn to fly your STOL aircraft as it was designed and meant to be flown you will actually realize the performance of the slats and be able to perform and exceed the stated #’s for the aircraft. Most of us over the years have seen the 701 perform at the Airshow in the ultralight field. Either with the Rotax 582 or 912. This plane greedily took off in under 50 ft, I have personally seen a 5 ft departure, no magic was performed here, the plane is fully capable of safely performing STOL operations. IT is a matter of learning, can VG’s make the 701 perform better in the hands of a pilot who knows the characteristics, NO they can’t. Does removing the slat increase the cruise of the STOL plane? OF course it does, it removes drag this is a no brainer. Conversely, a 701 has a Vne of 110mph and with simple clean up of high drag area’s such as streamlining the struts you will be able to cruise your 701 at 95-100mph with the 912S installed. Much more then that and your playing too close to the Vne, removing the slats is considered a non approved modification by the designer, plus he ahs a shutter every time you talk to him about it on the 701 because he designed his wings and aircraft specifications with the slats included.

 

What I’m trying to state is to not waste your money on the VG route, every once and awhile the fellow and his friends who are selling the VG’s state the saving grace of such an upgrade. I don’t dislike this gentleman and believe heartily that VG’s do have a service in other designs. Keep the designers intent of the plane ( after all that is why you built it ) isn’t it? Why else would you build a 701 if it wasn’t for the STOL characteristics. ( Well there is also it’s graceful beauty). Below is the meat of another post of which I agree with, I believe a 701 as designed is safer and far more capable then the altered version. Nonetheless, you need to know how to fly it. Book Time with a seasoned instructor in a 701. Get 5 hrs of dual to fully understand how your plane can perform, you will be much happier and this VG issue will die a quick death as far as the 701 is concerned.

 

Slats allow for an AOA of 15% or greater in pitch,VGs perform their task at less than 15% AOA on pitch up.  the wing with VGs will stall at a lower speed at 15% AOA and under.  The slat does its magic when you crank the stick back early to get into G.eFFCT. for early take off.  Crank too hard with a VG only and you will, not might, but will stall.

 

Think about it if the company thought they could get a 701 to take off in shorter distances then it already does don’t you think that they would be SHOWING it off at theAirshows? It already beats everything on the ultralight runway now and I am fully sure that they would love to beat a helicopter if they could. ( imagine the sales they would generate, and the awards)

 

Money spent on lessons with a qualified 701 instructor will be far better spent then on VG’s. At least in the 701. But , you’re the builder and can listen to whichever camp you desire. I have found on many occasions that the louder camp can sway opinion regardless of the truth. Anyone remember Beta Max Tapes?

 

 

Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)

www.can-zacaviation.com



 

--

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

Not necessarily Snake oil, they are quite useful in a laminar flow plane

and for helping in certain designs. They really make a difference on a

glider I tried them on. They may even make a difference on a 601XL,

though I doubt it would be noticeable. But on the 701 and remove the

slats, PLEASE, the proof of the 701's performance has been shown time

and time again at the shows, if your not matching the performance that

you have seen at the airshows, I'm afraid to tell you it is not likely

the plane, however the pilot just needs a little tweaking. Essentially

if the 701 is not scarring the hell out of you on departure you are a

seasoned 701 pilot or not flying it to it's abilities. Vortex Generators

will improve a pilot who is in need of learning a STOL's capabilities,

but it is a dangerous band aid in my opinion and training will be far

more beneficial. 



Though it is not so much training to fly the 701 it is more like

de-programming all those Cessna habits. 

Mark Townsend  Alma, Ontario

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com



--

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

Sure. I could refuel them between flights with  Tabasco Sauce. Good Idea.

  

 Dred

 Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

IF your in Indiana then just head over to west of St Louis to the Zenith Facility at Mexico , Missouri. Just call ahead and make sure Roger will be there and the 701 will be present. They will be more then happy to take you up for a demo flight.  

     

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)  

www.can-zacaviation.com   

  

   

--

Avidmagnum

Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Wisconsin, Florida

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: Re: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

A lot of good points on the  subject of VG's and there is no way we can cover all of them for everone. Some will love them and some will not. That's OK! We do not all fly our aircraft the same way.



My 701sp with 912S has floats and there is no way I can rotate like a land plane...the tails of the floats will drag.   I have time in my 701 with and without slats and like it much better without! But thats on floats!   



Tom Schulke

vgstol(at)bigpond.net.au
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: 701 VG's - Put this puppy to rest

Yes, you certainly can make your own VGs.  One set of instructions on how to make  them is at http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly19.html .  (He’s another dedicated experimenter  when you read the rest of his website.)   In the beginning I made these and they worked OK, just look a bit crude  and don’t fit the contour of the wing skin very well.  For the 701 wing, mount them with the  front tips 140mm in front of the rivet line on the top of the spar, about  100-150mm apart. 

  

Tailwinds always, 

JG<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =  "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"  />

 [quote]   ---

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