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landing short

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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: landing short

My model 2 "floats" quite a bit on landing. Part of this is a characteristic of the model, or so I've heard, and part I suspect is high idle (beat to death in another thread). This morning I tried repeatedly (no joy) to land on a short farm field, tall trees on both ends.

   

  I used what I know about short field technique: came in low on back side of power curve. Clear of obstacles, slip, chop, drop and flare.  But still she floats. On touch down, tall trees on far end aren't so far anymore, so power up and climb out. Brakes might have done it, or nosed us over into the stump fence. 

   

  This is what I have a Kitfox for and I gotta say, I'm frustrated. Practicing at the airport is not the same thing. I'm working on the idle speed. But is there something I'm missing on short field technique in this airplane? Like tossing out an anchor maybe? 

Marco  Menezes

Model 2 582 N99KX

  [quote][b]

akanka(at)kiamichiwb.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: landing short

Flying  a Maule in AK doing charter work, I found that about one wingspan above the  ground is a good place to start reducing airspeed to Vso, get the power  reduced, get the ground speed down, and it didn't want to float  anymore.

  

 Can't  say that technique will work in a Kitfox as well as it does in a maule, but I  operated out of several strips on gravel bars in the rivers that were fron 500-  800 ft. in length on wheels.

 John  Hart.

 [quote]   --

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: Re: landing short

Not sure this will help, but are the trees just on the ends or are the sides got them as well.  The reason I state this is maybe you can come in on the side and then straighten out over the runway. How I do this task is I come in low and rudder turn, meaning I keep the wings flat, no bank, you have to cross control, the fox, at least mine does this very well, makes it so you can thread a needle so to speak, and it's very fun.  Really freaks people on the ground.  Best thing you can do is get the idle down as low as possible, mine is about 1000rpm, I don't run it that low, I mainly use it for short landings and shut down. My fox, can land (stop and go)and take off within 500ft.  did a couple of these yesterday.

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: Re: landing short

 	  Quote: 	
		  I used what I know about short field technique: came in low on back side of power curve. Clear of obstacles, slip, chop, drop and flare. But still she floats. 	




Interesting. I do the complete opposite when I'm trying to land short. I come in high and slow with no power. Once I have a stable rate of descent at minimum safe air speed, I adjust my rate of descent  with slip or a smidgen of power as needed.  I was taught that speed control is critical when it comes to short field landings. To land really short, you have to be slower than the traditional 1.4X your stall speed. Naturallly, skill is the big limiting factor with how close you can safely get to your stall speed. I personally don't feel that I have good enough speed control yet to get slower than 1.3x safely.



Seems to me that if you're comming in low then you're either using a lot of power to flatten your descent or your comming in too fast. If you're comming in to fast then landing short is going to be real hard. If you're using a lot of power then you're really asking for it. If your motor coughs on approach then you're going to be SOL in a hurry.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: landing short

luis,

I agree all the way, you need to be slooow.  When I land short I stall it on the runway.  meaning, I have a really slow speed, I also find that the fox doesn't like to have a steep glide path, meaning a flater approach is prefered.  If you can't come in flat than you better be able to slip, and with full rudder.  When down on the runway level out a couple feet off and start pulling the elevator back until it stalls and you drop, with my idle as low as it goes, I generally have it all the way back until I start to induce the stall, than I put in just enough to bring in normal idle, don't want the engine to quit or have problems if I need to do a go around.  Once the aircraft stalls or quits flying she drops onto the runway, I don't care if it puts out a little jult, I want to be down and stopped as quick as possible.

eskflyer

Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 44
Location: AK

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: landing short

In the kitfox you pull thye nose up to slow down and yes my model 2 lands very short then but if i push the nose over and fly like all the othere planes then i float long . 



Good luck and practice makes for perfect landings.

_________________
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: landing short

 	  Quote: 	
		  When I land short I stall it on the runway. meaning, I have a really slow speed, I also find that the fox doesn't like to have a steep glide path, meaning a flater approach is prefered. 	


Perhapse it would be usefull to define "flat" in this context. My setup for a short field approach is about half the travel on the flaps with 50mph IAS and about 600ft/min rate of descent. In this configuration, my sight picture of the runway on final is way higher than what I used to see when I was flying a 172 and I'm heading right for the numbers (no slip necissary). Is this what you call flat? Are you using power to get your descent flatter or are you comming faster? Has to be one or the other right?



Naturally, this is all how it works for me when I get it right. More often then not, I'm too high and I need to add some slip to get it down. However, I'd rather have to add slip then power. If my motor dies on approach then I know I can still make the runway.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: landing short

I had issues when I first started flying johns KF II (eskflyer)  I would try the same thing you do, come in high, slip then flare and I would float.  I was taught early on that the elevator controls speed, power controls rate of desent.  If you slow it up nose high it will fall out of the sky, and you dont have and speed to bleed off once in ground effect.  you use the power to control the rate of desent.  I would bring it in slow and hit a little burst of power about 10' off and that will arrest the sink rate, but not make you float.  The down side to this is, if your engine burbles or dies, you are gonna be doing some tubing work, and probably need to go to the store and get a new pair of shorts.  If you want to get in short, I dont bother looking at the pannel, by this time you should have a solid feel for your plane, and be able to fly the approach strictly by feel, not by a certain number.



I am sure that there are those who will argue and call it unsafe to not know the exact speed you are flying, however, if you are really wanting to be a bush pilot, and get in and out short, you have to really know your plane and forgive me for sounding corny, become one with it.  I have only flown one KF so far, but it gives lots of warning before it will actually break in a stall... you really need to go to altitude and practice flying high alpha at minimum controlable airspeeds.  Anytime you slip or push the nose over to come in over and obstacle, you gain speed if you are not doing it correctly.  That excess speed turns to float when you hit ground effect.



Look for a DVD called "big rocks and long props"  This will show you a couple guys that really know their machines as well as tell you the techniques they use.

Are there any other fields around?  You dont want to go from a 6,500' blacktop runway, to a 200' strip.  you have to work yourself up the short field and get comfortable getting in shorter and shorter till you get to the point that a 200' strip looks huge to you.  And you are right, you cant get the feel for it on the regular runway.  You can get the technique down, but not the true feel.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: landing short

Landing flat.  I'll try to explain.  Now understand, I have about 3000 touch and go's this year.  I did about 30 this morning.  The last thing I want to do is the same thing over and over, I try to mix up the landings and try something new so to speak.  I find the fox will land just like a cessna if that's what you want, but getting to be one with the fox is really what you want.  I generally look at the airspeed indicator once on landing, usually about 1000 ft out from touch down, if it's  around 70 I do something about it, if I have a base to final to do, I put a 60degree bank in there to slow it down, no power, by the time I come out of the turn, generally about 20ft off, my speed feels just about right.  Now for the flat thing.  When you're coming in and you have a vasi light set up, you get white and red for being on track, with a flat landing you come in with all reds at the 1000ft out and still land on the numbers.  If things are a little to close then you keep the elevator the same and add power to stop the decent. once a couple ft. off and on the numbers, pull the power and let it land itself, basically.  Don't be afraid to let the tail hit first, it can happen.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: landing short

On Aug 31, 2007, at 9:16 PM, Marco Menezes wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   My model 2 "floats" quite a bit on landing.


	


This brings back a memory of many years ago, long before the Kitfox was 

  conceived. At that time, I purchased a radio-controlled model glider. 

I had only two servos and, building it, I was already thinking of a 

third one that could be use for the ailerons. But as soon as I started 

flying it, only on rudder and elevator, I realised that a third servo 

would do much better as a air brake. That glider would never land where 

I wanted to but floated and floated and I had to walk and walk to fetch 

it up.

This being said, although I fly from a long asphalt runway, I always 

try to land as short as possible. Short field technique can become 

handy when least expected. I don't know what is the best technique. I 

try to feel and know my plane. But my landings are still far from being 

good. Each flight is a new experience and something new learnt. But 

that's the fun of flying, isn't it?



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: landing short

 	  Quote: 	
		   Now for the flat thing. When you're coming in and you have a vasi light set up, you get white and red for being on track, with a flat landing you come in with all reds at the 1000ft out and still land on the numbers. If things are a little to close then you keep the elevator the same and add power to stop the decent. 	




Yup. That's what I'd call flat too. I generally see white/white when I come out of my base to final turn and I only see white/red briefly around short final before it goes red/red. At this point, I'm nose high, the ground is coming up fast and I'm repeating to my self "don't pull up stupid, don't pull up stupid". Just before touch down, I feed in a smidgen of power and smoothly pull the stick into my lap. If I did it right, I get a little squeak from the tires and she sticks. If I pull up too soon, she stalls high and I get a good plop but she still sticks. If I'm just a little bit too fast or if I added too much throttle, she'll bounce down the runway like a porpoise and I'm thinking "keep the stick back, keep the stick back".. gosh.. all this talk about flying gives me the urge but I have chores to do when I get home

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: landing short

Yup, doing the same for me, but it's not the chores that's getting me right now, it's low ceiling and winds over 25, you get the picture, thunderstorms.  They should be gone by midnight and nice for departure tomorrow morning bright and early.  heading, Idaho.  Way cool.  yepppi.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: landing short

At 12:16 PM 8/31/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  But is there something I'm missing on short field technique in this 

airplane? Like tossing out an anchor maybe? 


	


Hi Marco,

         Nah, anchors don't work worth a damn on asphalt.

         It took me a long time to get a short landing. I use two 

methods, both dangerous:



1. Slip all the way to the ground. It's the only way I've found to 

increase the drag on a Kitfox. It's kind of like doing a hairy 

cross-wind landing every time. You slip like mad until just above the 

ground and then kick it straight. I find that if I'm a little fast it 

will still float so I prefer:



2. I finally found that if I slowed it to just above stall with full 

flaps it would actually start to sink rather than float. I'm talking 

about 35 mph indicated on a IV-1200 at about 950#. Yes, this is about 

1.05 stall, and is therefore fraught with risk. I don't do it if 

there's any chance of even a minor wind shear, and I blip the 

throttle all the way down to make sure I've got access to power. 

Right before contact you rotate to three point attitude, (there is no 

flare,) and give the throttle a good blip to soften the contact; 

otherwise you'll hit very hard. Doing this right results in easily 

less than 100' of roll, and probably less than 200' over a 50' obstacle.



         Practice, but be very careful. Do it on a long field with 

plenty of room for error before you try the trees. (If your engine 

balks while you're trying your buried field you may end up going 

through the trees, rather than over.)

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

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