Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

[CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

IF this is True, what a tragedy , Jim was a nice guy, and low fuel is

such a poor way to go. Gents, please keep in mind a simple rule,

NEVER,NEVER leave the ground with anything less then full tanks, not

even if you are just going for a 5 min flight. Get in the habit of

calling for a fuel truck when your heading for your apron, or pull up to

the pumps before putting your plane to bed, but always leave your tanks

FULL after each flight. 

 

Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

HYPERLINK

"mailto:president(at)can-zacaviation.com"president(at)can-zacaviation.com

HYPERLINK "http://www.can-zacaviation.com/"www.can-zacaviation.com 

 

--

n4546v(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

I have to respfully  disagree, I believe the rule should be:  ALWAYS KNOW WHAT FUEL IS IN  YOUR SHIP BEFORE YOU TAKEOFF!  Fueling when you put your ship away is  no guarantee that the fuel will be there for the NEXT flight.  Our Flying  club (www.eaa163.com)  has a  original 1958 Cessna 172 with a 145 Hp engine.  We fuel for the  mission.  That is, if you load three fat guys into the ship for a 1 hour  flight, full fuel would put the ship very overgross and possibly as dangerous as  too little fuel (especially with our very high density altitudes in the  summer).  We demand pilot awareness regarding fuel for EACH and EVERY  flight.  We fuel for the mission, we stick the tanks, we don't trust the  guages.  Last month  we all went to look at a visiting, near new  WILGA, what a airplane!  But the pilot's side quick drain was steadily  dripping fuel.  I reported it to the airport management who contacted the  absent owner.  Another case where he probably topped off upon arrival, but  the fuel would not be there in the morning.  There are also the stories  where owner calls the fuel desk to fuel the "blue" Cessna, only to find out  (later) they fueled another "blue" Cessna three airplanes away.  One Sunday  Morning, I was pre-flighing my old Bonz to attend a EAA Chapter fly out  breakfast.  The guys behind me jumped into a 182, fired off and taxied out  to the runup area.  A few minutes later they taxied back in.  I asked  if I could help?  No, one of their fuel guages was reading near  empty.  Shouldn't be as they had ordered the airplane fueled the night  before.  I asked if they had sticked the tanks?  No, but NOW they were  looking for a ladder as that sounded like a good idea.  Luckily, this all  happened on the ground.  Different airplanes have different fuel  requirements, but:

  

 ALWAYS KNOW WHAT FUEL  IS IN YOUR SHIP BEFORE YOU TAKEOFF!

  

 Regards,

  

 Randy L. Thwing, Las  Vegas

  

  

  

  

  

  

 NEVER,NEVER leave the ground with anything less then full tanks,  not even if you are just going for a 5 min flight. Get in the habit of calling  for a fuel truck when your heading for your apron, or pull up to the pumps  before putting your plane to bed, but always leave your tanks FULL after each  flight.<![if !supportLists]><![endif]>

   [quote][b]

JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

I agree with Randy. Having done a couple really dum stunts in my flying career concerning fuel management, oversight and neglect and luckily not ending up bent in I can say that KNOWING what's in the tanks is the simplest and safest rule. Bill  [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: Re: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

I too have to disagree with the "always full fuel" statement. These planes have a ~4 hour fuel capacity and there are times when full fuel is neither needed or desired.



Know your fuel state at all times. Know your fuel burn at all times. That is what we need to take from this and virtually all fuel starvation accidents.



That said, did anybody even realize that you could get the plane to the point where it only had two ounces of fuel on board?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

The most eye opening thing was, of course, an experienced flyer running out of fuel. After that, the extremely low fuel remaining or high usuable percentage, was very surprising. 



As to running out of gas, another high time flyer I knew here locally, had run out of fuel at least once that I know of. This was a guy who we all considered the "Go To" guy for instrument instruction or to hire as a charter pilot. Thousands of hours of flight time in his log book. 



None of us can afford to be lax nor can we assume that because we know better and have been well warned, that we will not make the same or some other mistake.



Ed Moody II

Do Not Archive



---- Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)cox.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 That said, did anybody even realize that you could get the plane to the point where it only had two ounces of fuel on board?

 

 --------

 W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 601XL Under Construction

webmaster(at)upac.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

I agree with this totally. I have a friend who wrecked his plane because he gassed up the plane the night before his morning flight. What he discovered afterwards was that some thieves syphoned off the fuel in his tank during the night...

 Trev Page

C-IDUS 601HD R912

 



On Nov 20, 2006, at 8:33 PM, Randy L. Thwing wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have to respfully disagree, I believe the rule should be:  ALWAYS KNOW WHAT FUEL IS IN YOUR SHIP BEFORE YOU TAKEOFF!  Fueling when you put your ship away is no guarantee that the fuel will be there for the NEXT flight.  Our Flying club (www.eaa163.com)  has a original 1958 Cessna 172 with a 145 Hp engine.  We fuel for the mission.  That is, if you load three fat guys into the ship for a 1 hour flight, full fuel would put the ship very overgross and possibly as dangerous as too little fuel (especially with our very high density altitudes in the summer).  We demand pilot awareness regarding fuel for EACH and EVERY flight.  We fuel for the mission, we stick the tanks, we don't trust the guages.  Last month  we all went to look at a visiting, near new WILGA, what a airplane!  But the pilot's side quick drain was steadily dripping fuel.  I reported it to the airport management who contacted the absent owner.  Another case where he probably topped off upon arrival, but the fuel would not be there in the morning.  There are also the stories where owner calls the fuel desk to fuel the "blue" Cessna, only to find out (later) they fueled another "blue" Cessna three airplanes away.  One Sunday Morning, I was pre-flighing my old Bonz to attend a EAA Chapter fly out breakfast.  The guys behind me jumped into a 182, fired off and taxied out to the runup area.  A few minutes later they taxied back in.  I asked if I could help?  No, one of their fuel guages was reading near empty.  Shouldn't be as they had ordered the airplane fueled the night before.  I asked if they had sticked the tanks?  No, but NOW they were looking for a ladder as that sounded like a good idea.  Luckily, this all happened on the ground.  Different airplanes have different fuel requirements, but:

 

ALWAYS KNOW WHAT FUEL IS IN YOUR SHIP BEFORE YOU TAKEOFF!

 

Regards,

 

Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas

ccwacker(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

I was taught to open the tanks and look before each flight as part of the 

preflight. It served two purposes: 1) confirm the amount of fuel on board, 

2) Confirm that the cap was securely closed.



Gauges at best are a poor indication as to how much fuel you have on board. 

Keep in mind that we use a VW sender as supplied by Zenith. Does your car 

gauge read accurately? Mine doesn't and I own two VW's.



Chuck Wacker

N601CW, Quick build

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Trevor Page <webmaster(at)upac.ca>

Reply-To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: FW: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:16:54 -0500



I agree with this totally. I have a friend who wrecked his plane  because 

he gassed up the plane the night before his morning flight.  What he 

discovered afterwards was that some thieves syphoned off the  fuel in his 

tank during the night...



Trev Page

C-IDUS 601HD R912

On Nov 20, 2006, at 8:33 PM, Randy L. Thwing wrote:



>I have to respfully disagree, I believe the rule should be:  ALWAYS  KNOW 

>WHAT FUEL IS IN YOUR SHIP BEFORE YOU TAKEOFF!  Fueling when  you put your 

>ship away is no guarantee that the fuel will be there  for the NEXT 

>flight.  Our Flying club (www.eaa163.com)  has a  original 1958 Cessna 172 

>with a 145 Hp engine.  We fuel for the  mission.  That is, if you load 

>three fat guys into the ship for a 1  hour flight, full fuel would put the 

>ship very overgross and  possibly as dangerous as too little fuel 

>(especially with our very  high density altitudes in the summer).  We 

>demand pilot awareness  regarding fuel for EACH and EVERY flight.  We fuel 

>for the mission,  we stick the tanks, we don't trust the guages.  Last 

>month  we all  went to look at a visiting, near new WILGA, what a 

>airplane!  But  the pilot's side quick drain was steadily dripping fuel.  

>I  reported it to the airport management who contacted the absent  owner.  

>Another case where he probably topped off upon arrival, but  the fuel 

>would not be there in the morning.  There are also the  stories where 

>owner calls the fuel desk to fuel the "blue" Cessna,  only to find out 

>(later) they fueled another "blue" Cessna three  airplanes away.  One 

>Sunday Morning, I was pre-flighing my old Bonz  to attend a EAA Chapter 

>fly out breakfast.  The guys behind me  jumped into a 182, fired off and 

>taxied out to the runup area.  A  few minutes later they taxied back in.  

>I asked if I could help?   No, one of their fuel guages was reading near 

>empty.  Shouldn't be  as they had ordered the airplane fueled the night 

>before.  I asked  if they had sticked the tanks?  No, but NOW they were 

>looking for a  ladder as that sounded like a good idea.  Luckily, this all 

>  happened on the ground.  Different airplanes have different fuel  

>requirements, but:

>

>ALWAYS KNOW WHAT FUEL IS IN YOUR SHIP BEFORE YOU TAKEOFF!

>

>Regards,

>

>Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas




	


_________________________________________________________________

MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, 

age, and price. Try it! 

http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata 0601&tcode=wlmtagline

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:33 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

It is said that the fuel gauge is the least accurate instrument in an

airplane.



-- Craig

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

This discussion of the dangers of running out of fuel brings to mind the demise of singer John Denver, who was by all accounts a good pilot.  



Obviously such accidents are not limited to low-time pilots.  We have a guy around here who runs a charter operation.  He's run out of fuel twice.  Once while IFR at night (managed to find an airport) and last year on day VFR flight back to Michigan from Canada.   Ditched in Lake Huron about 8 miles short of his destination.  In both cases, everyone survived.  



A few years ago I was conducting a standardization course for filight instructors and watched as three CFI's departed in a 182 for a checkride.  As soon as they rotated a spray of blue was observed streaming off the right wing.   3 CFI's and no one had checked to see if the fuel cap was on.



We recently had a new 182 ditch in the shallows of lake St. Clair on a flight from NY state.  Same reason, missing fuel cap.



I teach my students to:  (1) Visually inspect and determine fuel quantity before each flight and that fuel caps are properly installed and (2) carry more fuel than the FAA minimums require.  With an old plane like a Cub or Champ, that usually means full tanks.  



You guys have all got the right idea.... the moral here is to come up with a sound fuel management procedure and stick with it.  The term "pilot in command" means that you are in charge of determining whether the flight can be made safely.  There is no room for guesswork.



Tim



Do not Archive

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

You know, I never met Jim and it's clear I never will. However I don't know 

how he made his pre-flight and I don't think I would simply assume he took 

off with no fuel. I think I would simply feel bad that a fellow pilot died, 

for all we know those tanks were full at take-off.

jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

We need to consider that there are no FBO or any other services available at Sky  Bryce Airport where N601VA was based.  The MASPL custom was to fuel up at the New Market  Airport nearby.    Jeff Davidson  

   

Others wrote:    

I have to respfully disagree, I believe the rule should be:  ALWAYS KNOW WHAT FUEL IS IN YOUR SHIP BEFORE YOU TAKEOFF!  Fueling when you put your ship away is no guarantee that the fuel will be there for the NEXT flight.  <snip>   

    

   

  

NEVER,NEVER leave the ground with anything less then full tanks, not even if you are just going for a 5 min flight. Get in the habit of calling for a fuel truck when your heading for your apron, or pull up to the pumps before putting your plane to bed, but always leave your tanks FULL after each flight. <snip>  [quote] [b]

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

Keep it simple, all pilots regardless of hours need to use the written check list.  The problem is as we gain hours, we get lax.  I have cut corners from time to time and, I forget the reason for a check list, is not to forget the list of things before determining a go or no go.  Every CFI teaches us, check list and check the list.  You cut corners and that is the one time you wished you had not skipped the check list.



Go right to your walk around check list, everytime,  and check.  We are all human, and 12 years ago, the one time I did not go through my check list because" i was only 30 minutes from my last flight" the plane sputtered five miles from runway.  I was at 1200 ft. at 100 mph, I emmediately climbed to bleed off MPH and assume best glide first, then set to determine the casue of the "dead stick problem".  When I landed, the tanks had only the nonusable amounts in them(1 gal each side!).  I did not see that the engine was runnning richer, consuming more than usual, hence, the tanks were lower than what I thought.



If I had gone through my check list, Opening the tanks and putting the dip stick would have alerte me.  We all miss Jim, and it may not have been the fuel as the problem, but I know for certain there are a bunch of low time pilots on this forum, and the higher time pilots need to guide the lesser pilots with good advice. Let us all look inward and learn something from this.  God did not create check lists for wall paper and decoration.



Juan

601 xl



--

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

A very important "tool" in flying:  The Checklist(s)....



With modern cars that lock the doors,  shut off and on the lights,  tell you miles in advance when fuel is low or when you need to change the oil or service the car, etc.   we forget the basics of checking the car every week, like fathers and grandpa's did..  

 That is the basic of the aviation checklists and mantainance....



Lets keep proficient, for our life and family happiness, also and not last, to protect our sport from the media...



Saludos

Gary Gower.



Charles Wacker <ccwacker(at)HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Charles Wacker" 



I was taught to open the tanks and look before each flight as part of the 

preflight. It served two purposes: 1) confirm the amount of  fuel on board, 

2) Confirm that the cap was securely closed.



Gauges at best are a poor indication as to how much fuel you have on board. 

Keep in mind that we use a VW sender as supplied by Zenith. Does your car 

gauge read accurately? Mine doesn't and I own two VW's.



Chuck Wacker

N601CW, Quick build

[quote]From: Trevor Page 

Reply-To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: FW: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:16:54 -0500



I agree with this totally. I have a friend who wrecked his plane  because 

he gassed up the plane the night before his morning flight.  What he 

discovered afterwards was that some thieves syphoned off the  fuel in his 

tank during the night...



Trev Page

C-IDUS 601HD R912

On Nov 20, 2006, at 8:33 PM, Randy L. Thwing  wrote:



>I have to respfully disagree, I believe the rule should be:  ALWAYS  KNOW 

>WHAT FUEL IS IN YOUR SHIP BEFORE YOU TAKEOFF!  Fueling when  you put your 

>ship away is no guarantee that the fuel will be there  for the NEXT 

>flight.  Our Flying club (www.eaa163.com)  has a  original 1958 Cessna 172 

>with a 145 Hp engine.  We fuel for the  mission.  That is, if you load 

>three fat guys into the ship for a 1  hour flight, full fuel would put the 

>ship very overgross and  possibly as dangerous as too little fuel 

>(especially with our very  high density altitudes in the summer).  We 

>demand pilot awareness  regarding fuel for EACH and EVERY flight.  We fuel 

>for the mission,  we stick the tanks, we don't trust the guages.  Last 

>month  we all  went to look at a visiting, near new WILGA, what a 

>airplane!  But  the pilot's side quick drain  was steadily dripping fuel.  

>I  reported it to the airport management who contacted the absent  owner.  

>Another case where he probably topped off upon arrival, but  the fuel 

>would not be there in the morning.  There are also the  stories where 

>owner calls the fuel desk to fuel the "blue" Cessna,  only to find out 

>(later) they fueled another "blue" Cessna three  airplanes away.  One 

>Sunday Morning, I was pre-flighing my old Bonz  to attend a EAA Chapter 

>fly out breakfast.  The guys behind me  jumped into a 182, fired off and 

>taxied out to the runup area.  A  few minutes later they taxied back in.  

>I asked if I could help?   No, one of their fuel guages was reading near 

>empty.  Shouldn't be  as they had ordered the airplane fueled the night 

>before.  I asked  if they had sticked the tanks?  No, but NOW they were 

>looking for a  ladder  Click now to apply [quote][b]

kellymeiste(at)jcwifi.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

 	  Quote: 	
		   It is said that the fuel gauge is the least accurate instrument in an

 airplane.


	


______________________________________________________



Seems the more the 601 has evolved the more they are prone to issues the 

designer did not originally intend his aircraft to be.

Look back at the early 601 IP, notice something there that many of you do 

not have on your "new & improved" planes?

That vertical tube on the IP is a clever, low cost, KISS design to monitor 

your fuel supply. Yes just that simple sight gauge is all I run in my plane 

for just that reason. Granted it's not 100% idiot proof but it's pretty darn 

close.

Forget the fancy high dollar IP, leave that for the RV guys, stick to the 

basics with this plane and KISS, it may just save your bacon someday.



Kelly Meiste

601 HD (150 hours)

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

Chris Heintz added the wing tanks. Its hard to use a sight gauge on them.



-- Craig

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

Felow,

pilots,

regardless of whether you buy off site or not, The Pilot is responsible for checking fuel before takeoff!  No excuses!

I have fuel off site and I have lugged many times a fuel can with gas to ensure when I take off at Least 1 hour of fuel plus reserve!

Juan



--

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:06 am Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

to all,



I would suggest a new fuel dip stick that is out that works nicely, you actually customize it to the plane by meusring the guage as you fill the tank.   you start it out with the tank empty, then mesaure and mark on a cardbaord grid where the mark is for each gallon added, pretty accurate.  look for it in the local flight store. 

Option two is weld (with no gas in tank)  a tab marker like in other GA aircraft, indicating five, and ten gallons or what ever.  I have done so in past by filling the tank with water  (hose) to plane removed, and measured different points in tank with welded mark on filler cap.

Juan

--

kellymeiste(at)jcwifi.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:33 am Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

Agreed, that's why many 601's will run wing tanks, and the small header tank 

(with visual sight gauge).



Kelly



---

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: Re: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  ... did anybody even realize that you could get the plane to the point where it only had two ounces of fuel on board? 	




Read a little more carefully. It says that they recovered two ounces from the carb bowl, lines etc for testing. It doesn't say that there was only two ounces total onboard. The tanks have 1/2 gallon unusable, each.



The empty lines along with the scant amount in the filter and bowls is a clear indication that no fuel was getting to the engine.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: Re: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

I read the report very carefully. It may be poor writing on the part of the report writers but they clearly state "No evidence of fuel in 

the low points of the system was discovered and the fuel tanks were dry 

and absent of fuel."

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum