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float revisited

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kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: float revisited

The commments about float got me thinking about my own landing profile so this morning I went up 2000' above pattern altitude and flew a mock approach keeping the speed glued at 1.3 x stall which for my plane is 52 IAS.

  

 Some observations, sink showed 5-600 on the VSI. Control was excellent, though attention needed to be paid to the rudder as the ball tended to slide to the right.

  

 Carrying the same methodology to the pattern showed the same thing but I found myself just a little short of my touch down point.  I had carried the turn to base a little far given the 6kts down the runway. Touch down was with very little flair required because the attitude at 52 is close to three-point.  When I did flair speed dropped off quickly and the plane planted with no float. I had to power up to get off the numbers.  Roll was under 200'.

  

 Given the tendency for the Kitfox to lose momentum quickly it is natural to carry a little extra speed for safety margin, but I believe we then start carry a little extra margin over the original margin.  Everyone needs to fly the numbers they are comfortable but understand what your plane is telling telling you.

  

 AOPA safety figures suggest that there are as many or more accidents cause by carrying eccess speed into the flair than occur with too little speed.

  

 John Kerr

 Trying to become one with my plane, whichever one I happen to be flying at the moment.

  [quote][b]

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:46 am Post subject: Re: float revisited

My thoughts exactly. No need to drag the airplane in with power or force her down with a slip. All you have to do is slow down and she comes down just fine on her own. The slower you go, the steeper your angle of descent and the less she's going to float when you flair. Not to say that I'm all that good at it myself mind you. It's just what I was taught but everythign I've observed is consistent with this. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Carrying the same methodology to the pattern showed the same thing but I found myself just a little short of my touch down point. I had carried the turn to base a little far given the 6kts down the runway. Touch down was with very little flair required because the attitude at 52 is close to three-point. When I did flair speed dropped off quickly and the plane planted with no float. I had to power up to get off the numbers. Roll was under 200'. 



Given the tendency for the Kitfox to lose momentum quickly it is natural to carry a little extra speed for safety margin, but I believe we then start carry a little extra margin over the original margin. Everyone needs to fly the numbers they are comfortable but understand what your plane is telling telling you.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: Re: float revisited

You mentioned the centering of the ball.  Hummmm.  I remember when I was doing training for my tailwheel and the CFI told me NOT to look at the ball when landing.  So I learned NOT to look at the ball.  I center the aircraft to the runway by eye sight.  I also remember putting a mark on the windshield for doing such a thing.  I believe, and I guess my CFI at the time believed that centering the ball would cause you to come in crooked.   Now the speed for landing, when coming over the approach end of the runway should be about 50 IAS, I agree with that one.  That is if you are going to do a three point(tail wheel), if you want a nice wheel landing, the speed just as you touch should be no higher than 55 IAS.  For a three point, 50 over the approach end is about right, with 35IAS being indicated as you hit the flair and touch down.  That's given my stall at 38IAS with ground effect being factored in.



Now I do all kinds of landings, I prepare myself for anything.  Today there was plenty of traffic so I held 107kts ground speed until about 1 mile out and then pulled to full idle and flattened the prop, as soon as I cleared the trees about 2000ft out I slipped to about 30ft off and then leveled out to slow me to about 55 then I had to add a little power to stop the decent and made a real nice short landing on the numbers.  To tell you the truth, I don't know what a text book landing is anymore.  I know what to do no matter where I enter the pattern, 5 mile straight in, to 90 degree(bearing) base to final over the runway.  I can pick up on the speeds needed for a nice landing.

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: Re: float revisited

 	  Quote: 	
		  I believe, and I guess my CFI at the time believed that centering the ball would cause you to come in crooked. 	


Isn't that the definition of a forward slip? I thought that was ok as long as you straitened the plane out before touch down..

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: Re: float revisited

You should't be looking at the ball just as you touch down.   With that I never look at the ball when slipping either.  Why, it's alway pushed to one side.  I use full rudder when slipping.

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:34 am Post subject: float revisited

Personally, I wouldn't want to be cross-controlling on a short field final approach, close to the ground at or near stall speed. Kitfoxes do spin, or so I'm told. I'm thinking Mike and Luis' techniques may both work but might also be mutually exclusive. 



wingnut <wingnut(at)spamarrest.com> wrote:  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I believe, and I guess my CFI at the time believed that centering the ball would cause you to come in crooked. 


	


Isn't that the definition of a forward slip? I thought that was ok as long as you straitened the plane out before touch down..



--------

Luis Rodriguez

Model IV 1200

Rotax 912UL

Flying Weekly

Laurens, SC (34A)





Read this topic online [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: float revisited

are you saying you should not side slip ?  



Plenty of it here in a Kitfox



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j7aBw90n9U 



Regards,



Dave 	  Quote: 	
		  Personally, I wouldn't want to be cross-controlling on a short field final approach, close to the ground at or near stall speed. Kitfoxes do spin, or so I'm told. I'm thinking Mike and Luis' techniques may both work but might also be mutually exclusive.

_________________
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kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: float revisited

Heck no.  What I'm saying is don't be looking at the ball when you land.  You know the last ten feet before touch down.  Look out the window and square the airplane.  



Myself, I'm a slipping fool.  Both side and straight slips.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject: float revisited

On Sep 5, 2007, at 9:33 PM, Marco Menezes wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Personally, I wouldn't want to be cross-controlling on a short field 

 final approach, close to the ground at or near stall speed.


	


I do. All the time. Even a few yards from the threshold, I violently 

put the plane on the side if I feel I have too much speed. The only 

time it developed an ill effect is when my tail stalled, not the wings. 

The thing is: you do forward slip when you feel you have too much speed 

and if not loosing it pronto, you'll float a lot before touching down. 

If I am already near stall speed, there is no need to slow down even 

more. But, of course, this has to be trained for at a safe altitude 

first.

About centering the ball when landing ... I never look at any 

instrument. My instructor told me: "Feel the Force, young Skywalker, 

feel the Force!" It is the moment the seat of my pants is the only one 

to be trusted. Mind you, dear master Yoda, after 350 hours on this 

Kitfox, many of my landings are still ugly. Too much speed ... oops! 

.. stall out of the flare too high ... ooops! But once in a while it's 

a nice and smooth one!

  ... "Ahhhhh! Was it good for you too?" asks Tango, my beloved Kitfox. 

You bet!  



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: float revisited

Well.. I'm not really talking about my 'technique' so much as just regurgitating what I remember from my lessons and sharing what I think is working for me so far. I find these discussions useful in helping me refine things further and also in helping me really nail down how much of the early training I got in a 172 is really useful with my Kitfox. What makes it all the more interesting is seeing how much variation there is from pilot to pilot. Iâ€™m really surprised that there isnâ€™t more consistency.



As for watching the ball on approach.. I wouldnâ€™t do that either. I was just suggesting that, if you find yourself flying â€˜crookedâ€™ on final but youâ€™re flying strait to the runway, then youâ€™re probably encountering some cross wind and a forward slip is appropriate. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Personally, I wouldn't want to be cross-controlling on a short field final approach, close to the ground at or near stall speed. Kitfoxes do spin, or so I'm told. I'm thinking Mike and Luis' techniques may both work but might also be mutually exclusive.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: float revisited

Well ,  I sideslip on nearly every landing to some degree and alot of the time with 20 degres flaperons .  Now on a  172 or 152 you would not want to side slip with flaps but we talkinga Kitfox. 

Very docile and fun to fly.   



I will side slip right to the final flare at 10 feet above lading area (sand,snow,water grass whatever)  



AS far as consistency of pilots, I agree alot have less experience that others and in time they will experience  more and more skills. 



How bout some videos so  that we can all learn from each other ?

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: float revisited

talking about cross controlling a fox.  Huh!  I do it all the time.  The only time mine is flying straight, ball centered, is when at a cruise.  I've done flat turns on take off(use of rudder and opposite aileron), I've done flat turns over the runway(zig zag) back and forth over the runway 2ft off(use of rudder and opposite aileron), I've done all kinds of cross control with NO ill effects.  Of course I do watch the ol' speed thing when doing this.

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: float revisited

In a message dated 9/5/2007 3:35:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  msm_9949(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Personally, I wouldn't want to be cross-controlling on a short    field final approach, close to the ground at or near stall speed.    Kitfoxes do spin, or so I'm told. I'm thinking Mike and Luis' techniques may    both work but might also be mutually exclusive.  



	


 

    I just did 5 take off and landings in a cross  wind with the nose pointed into the wind atleast 10 degrees. Let the plane fly  and in ground effect straiten up and land.  Kitfox's spin ???   Anything will spin if the limit is pressed, but not doing crosswind  landings.  Are you maybe talking about a ground loop ???  Steve  B  4-912



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

  [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: float revisited

John,  You have hit the nail on the head with excess speed. 

Seems that alot are afraid to explore the envelope and practice slow flight ?   



How aften does Kitfox pilots actually do stalls ? Mine is fully stalled nearly every landing.    



 	  Quote: 	
		  AOPA safety figures suggest that there are as many or more accidents cause by carrying eccess speed into the flair than occur with too little speed.

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:45 pm Post subject: float revisited

Dave looks like,Fri night.I will drive down to wing nuts my car with 

camping gear.Tim will fly 172 down.stay Fri night.then sat night we will 

leave out for home.all depends on weather.may B we will drive down if 

weather too bad to fly down.weather dont look good as of now.calling for 

rain+thunder storms.but we are still going one way or another..all so we 

will have a car to run in..may even take train ride Sat.there.or even 

canoe trip.there.sounds like fun weekend..any way got to fly 4 now Steve 

Shinabery



dave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 John,  You have hit the nail on the head with excess speed. 

 Seems that alot are afraid to explore the envelope and practice slow flight ?   



 How aften does Kitfox pilots actually do stalls ? Mine is fully stalled nearly every landing.    

   

> AOPA safety figures suggest that there are as many or more accidents cause by carrying eccess speed into the flair than occur with too little speed. 

>     

 --------

 Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

 Flying Videos and Kitfox Info

 http://www.cfisher.com/





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=132955#132955

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: float revisited

I went up the other day JUST to do stalls. I had been having trouble  

landing from coming in too fast, so I felt it was time to revisit  

some stalls and see it the plane still stalled at the same speeds as  

it did when first flown...yup...45 (mph) clean, 40 with 10 degrees  

flap, and 35 with full (20 degrees) flaps. I always  land with full  

flaps, and slip when needed to about 10 -15 feet off the deck, then  

straighten out and pull back when appropriate.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/400+ hrs

On Sep 5, 2007, at 4:52 PM, dave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 John,  You have hit the nail on the head with excess speed.

 Seems that alot are afraid to explore the envelope and practice  

 slow flight ?

 How aften does Kitfox pilots actually do stalls ? Mine is fully  

 stalled nearly every landing.   

> AOPA safety figures suggest that there are as many or more  

> accidents cause by carrying eccess speed into the flair than occur  

> with too little speed.

 --------

 Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

 Flying Videos and Kitfox Info

 http://www.cfisher.com/

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: float revisited

No, I use slips (forward and side) all the time to dump altitude and for cross-wind correction. But I was trained (in a PA-11) not to cross-control close to the ground at or near stall speed. Instructor: "You GD fool! Wadda ya trying to do? Kill me??"

   

  I'll try it at altitude sometime and see what happens.



Sbennett3(at)aol.com wrote:

  [quote]      In a message dated 9/5/2007 3:35:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, msm_9949(at)yahoo.com writes:

  [quote]Personally, I wouldn't want to be cross-controlling on a short field final approach, close to [quote][b]

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: Re: float revisited

when I do cross control, zig zag with level wings, I do it no less than 55mph.  hope this helps. my stall is about 38 without flaps, I have vg's.

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