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Broken tailwheel spring- revelation

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jack(at)comconn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: Broken tailwheel spring- revelation

It finally happened- I broke my tailwheel spring

after a landing.  Not during the landing, but

after. If you could see the condition of the 

runway I generally use, you'd understand.



Anyway- no real damage, other than the fabric on

the rudder having numerous holes punched by the 

dragging tailwheel. And, of course the need for

a new spring.



Which, as they say, is the point.  This occurred

while landing an Avid MK IV.  They have that 

nicely rounded rudder, and the "round" at the

bottom keeps the rudder off the asphalt if

the spring breaks.  I looked at the kitfox I

parked next to it, and noted that if *that*

spring broke, I'd trash the rudder.  And, since

I had the avid rudder in hand, I held it up and...



Did you know that, with the exception of the rudder 

horns being higher, and the top of the rudder sitting

maybe 1 inch higher, that the rounded rudder will fit

right onto the kitfox?  The hinge tabs are in *exactly*

the correct place. A new stop, or moving the horns,

adding an inch to the top of the verticle stabilizer,

and suddenly you have a more effective, and less easily

damaged rudder.



$.02



Jack



Kitfox I Rotax 582 GSC prop

Avid Mk IV jabiru 2200 prince ptip

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:51 pm Post subject: Broken tailwheel spring- revelation

On Sep 15, 2007, at 9:12 PM, Jack L Bell wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   It finally happened- I broke my tailwheel spring

 after a landing.


	


I did the same thing last year, Jack. My single blade tailwheel spring 

gave up after about 950 landings. It was on asphalt and the plane went 

in a 270 degrees ground loop. Luckily the speed was so low that it went 

well. I have now two blades on my tailwheel spring.



I see your point with the Avid rudder that is more curved and doesn't 

rest on the ground in the event of the lost of the tailwheel. I guess 

the Kitfox is more squared because Denney and later, Skystar, tried to 

increase as much as possible the rudder authority with surface.



Anyway, I also needed some repair to the rudder as it had been shaved 

by the asphalt. I repaired it with glassfiber, epoxy, a piece of fabric 

and paint. It is not a structural part of the aircraft so I guess it 

should be good enough.



Geir-Olav, if you read this: Remember to add a second blade to your 

tailwheel spring on your model IV!



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:49 am Post subject: Broken tailwheel spring- revelation

Michel-

When you speak of a "single blade", and later adding a "second  

blade", are you counting all the blades/leafs (that's what they call  

'em Stateside)? I ask because I also broke the main leaf in my  

original 2-leaf spring, and replaced it with a three leaf  

spring...that is: two main leafs that have bolt holes in each end,  

and a helper leaf that only has a bolt hole where it attaches to the  

fuselage. Now understand that I'm talking about the steel leaf  

springs that measure 1/4" (~6mm?) each, not the thick aluminum one  

piece spring.

With the newer design 3-leaf spring (available from John McBean)  

which consists of the aforementioned 2 main leafs and one helper or  

booster leaf, breaking a main leaf won't normally cause any dropping  

of the fuse on the ground, and subsequent damage to the aircraft,  

because normally only one of those main leafs will break at a  

time...unless you're having a REALLY bad day. : )

On Sep 16, 2007, at 3:51 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Sep 15, 2007, at 9:12 PM, Jack L Bell wrote:

> It finally happened- I broke my tailwheel spring

> after a landing.

 I did the same thing last year, Jack. My single blade tailwheel  

 spring gave up after about 950 landings. It was on asphalt and the  

 plane went in a 270 degrees ground loop. Luckily the speed was so  

 low that it went well. I have now two blades on my tailwheel spring.

 I see your point with the Avid rudder that is more curved and  

 doesn't rest on the ground in the event of the lost of the  

 tailwheel. I guess the Kitfox is more squared because Denney and  

 later, Skystar, tried to increase as much as possible the rudder  

 authority with surface.

 Anyway, I also needed some repair to the rudder as it had been  

 shaved by the asphalt. I repaired it with glassfiber, epoxy, a  

 piece of fabric and paint. It is not a structural part of the  

 aircraft so I guess it should be good enough.

 Geir-Olav, if you read this: Remember to add a second blade to your  

 tailwheel spring on your model IV!

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/400+ hrs

do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: Broken tailwheel spring- revelation

Hello Lynn,



On Sep 16, 2007, at 6:53 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   When you speak of a "single blade", and later adding a "second blade", 

 are you counting all the blades/leafs (that's what they call 'em 

 Stateside)?


	


Yep, that's what I meant. Speaking foreign languages can sometimes be 

very funny. The first price, I think, goes to my Norwegian wife who 

said, many years ago: public hair, when she meant: pubic hair! 



Yes I was talking about the 1/4" steel leaf. I had only the main one. 

Now I have a new main one and a "helper," as you call it. I was also 

told that John had three leafs springs. But I figured out that if I 

could do 950 landings on a single one, I can do with two leafs for a 

while. The think is: when I do the weight and balance on my model 3, I 

have only 18 kg (40 pounds) on the tail. Many of the newer models are 

much heavier than that.

But you've got a good point there, if I am to break my main leaf now, 

the plane will rest on the 'helper' and the rudder will be safe.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



Do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Broken tailwheel spring- revelation

Michel,  

Not so,   The tailwheel will be bouncing around and likely go through your rudder.  Ask me how i know  <snicker> 



I have 3 leafs on mine now and hopefully they will have a good long life. .



 	  Quote: 	
		  But you've got a good point there, if I am to break my main leaf now, 

the plane will rest on the 'helper' and the rudder will be safe.

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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:24 am Post subject: Broken tailwheel spring- revelation

Not so fast there, Michel...when I broke my 2-leaf (main and helper/ 

booster/whatever) I still got a bit of rash on my rudder because the  

tailwheel flopped around a bit and the rear of the plane dropped down  

to be SUPPORTED by the helper leaf (as it dragged along in the dirt),  

but the tailwheel could STILL cause you damage because it is no  

longer held in position by anything.  You could still break your main  

leaf and cause damage to the plane without the rudder actually  

hitting the ground. With the new three-leaf spring, there are two  

main leafs that have to break before the above scenario would happen.  

My 2-leaf spring broke at about the 450 or so landings mark, and  

based on metallurgy, your new one may go before or after that. I had  

43 pounds on my tail during weighing. I bought the 3-leaf model  

because it is a safety feature, not because I needed a stiffer spring.

Taking this whole safety/stiffness thing a bit further, one might  

conclude that if a spring were to be made of 1/8" (3mm) leaves, one  

could use maybe four leaves that are all held by the current two  

bolts, that maybe a softer ride would result, and the safety margin  

would be much greater.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/400+ hrs

do not archive

On Sep 16, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hello Lynn,

 On Sep 16, 2007, at 6:53 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

> When you speak of a "single blade", and later adding a "second  

> blade", are you counting all the blades/leafs (that's what they  

> call 'em Stateside)?

 Yep, that's what I meant. Speaking foreign languages can sometimes  

 be very funny. The first price, I think, goes to my Norwegian wife  

 who said, many years ago: public hair, when she meant: pubic hair! 

 Yes I was talking about the 1/4" steel leaf. I had only the main  

 one. Now I have a new main one and a "helper," as you call it. I  

 was also told that John had three leafs springs. But I figured out  

 that if I could do 950 landings on a single one, I can do with two  

 leafs for a while. The think is: when I do the weight and balance  

 on my model 3, I have only 18 kg (40 pounds) on the tail. Many of  

 the newer models are much heavier than that.

 But you've got a good point there, if I am to break my main leaf  

 now, the plane will rest on the 'helper' and the rudder will be safe.

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

 Do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

poasttown(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: Broken tailwheel spring- revelation

Would a metal tube shaped like a C attached right in front of the tail wheel spring serve as a stop to prevent damage in the event of a tail wheel spring break?  This could resemble the skid used on the d tail wheel planes.

  Mike Chaney

Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson 

Not so fast there, Michel...when I broke my 2-leaf (main and helper/ 

booster/whatever) I still got a bit of rash on my rudder because the 

tailwheel flopped around a bit and the rear of the plane dropped down 

to be SUPPORTED by the helper leaf (as it dragged along in the dirt), 

but the tailwheel could STILL cause you damage because it is no 

longer held in position by anything. You could still break your main 

leaf and cause  damage to the plane without the rudder actually 

hitting the ground. With the new three-leaf spring, there are two 

main leafs that have to break before the above scenario would happen. 

My 2-leaf spring broke at about the 450 or so landings mark, and 

based on metallurgy, your new one may go before or after that. I had 

43 pounds on my tail during weighing. I bought the 3-leaf model 

because it is a safety feature, not because I needed a stiffer spring.

Taking this whole safety/stiffness thing a bit further, one might 

conclude that if a spring were to be made of 1/8" (3mm) leaves, one 

could use maybe four leaves that are all held by the current two 

bolts, that maybe a softer ride would result, and the safety margin 

would be much greater.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/400+ hrs

do not archive

On Sep 16, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

[quote]  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe 

 Hello Lynn,

 On Sep 16, 2007, at 6:53 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

> When you speak of a "single blade", and later adding a "second 

> blade", are you counting all the blades/leafs (that's what they 

> call 'em Stateside)?

 Yep, that's what I meant. Speaking foreign languages can sometimes 

 be very funny. The first price, I think, goes to my Norwegian wife 

 who said, many years ago: public hair, when she meant: pubic hair! 

 Yes I was talking about the 1/4" steel leaf. I had only the main 

 one. Now I have a new main one and a "helper," as you call it. I 

 was also told that John had three leafs springs. But I figured out 

 that if I could do 950 landings on a single one, I can do with two 

 leafs for a while. The think is: when I do the weight and balance 

 on [quote][b]

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject: Broken tailwheel spring- revelation

Too Lynn Matteson:  where can I get the triple leaf??I too only have 

single leaf.and it all ready broke once on this plane.I want to up date 

it all so.can U tell me where to go for this??Steve Shinabery,N554KF,  

KF2  582 gray head,,,St.Marys Ohio



Mike Chaney wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Would a metal tube shaped like a C attached right in front of the tail 

 wheel spring serve as a stop to prevent damage in the event of a tail 

 wheel spring break?  This could resemble the skid used on the d tail 

 wheel planes.

  

 Mike Chaney



 */Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>/* wrote:



     



     Not so fast there, Michel...when I broke my 2-leaf (main and helper/

     booster/whatever) I still got a bit of rash on my rudder because the

     tailwheel flopped around a bit and the rear of the plane dropped down

     to be SUPPORTED by the helper leaf (as it dragged along in the dirt),

     but the tailwheel could STILL cause you damage because it is no

     longer held in position by anything. You could still break your main

     leaf and cause damage to the plane without the rudder actually

     hitting the ground. With the new three-leaf spring, there are two

     main leafs that have to break before the above scenario would happen.

     My 2-leaf spring broke at about the 450 or so landings mark, and

     based on metallurgy, your new one may go before or after that. I had

     43 pounds on my tail during weighing. I bought the 3-leaf model

     because it is a safety feature, not because I needed a stiffer spring.

     Taking this whole safety/stiffness thing a bit further, one might

     conclude that if a spring were to be made of 1/8" (3mm) leaves, one

     could use maybe four leaves that are all held by the current two

     bolts, that maybe a softer ride would result, and the safety margin

     would be much greater.

     Lynn Matteson

     Grass Lake, Michigan

     Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200

     flying w/400+ hrs

     do not archive

     On Sep 16, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:



     > 

     >

     > Hello Lynn,

     >

     > On Sep 16, 2007, at 6:53 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

     >> When you speak of a "single blade", and later adding a "second

     >> blade", are you counting all the blades/leafs (that's what they

     >> call 'em Stateside)?

     >

     > Yep, that's what I meant. Speaking foreign languages can sometimes

     > be very funny. The first price, I think, goes to my Norwegian wife

     > who said, many years ago: public hair, when she meant: pubic

     hair! 

     >

     > Yes I was talking about the 1/4" steel leaf. I had only the main

     > one. Now I have a new main one and a "helper," as you call it. I

     > was also told that John had three leafs springs. But I figured out

     > that if I could do 950 landings on a single one, I can do with two

     > leafs for a while. The think is: when I do the weight and balance

     > on



     *

     *



     ------------------------------------------------------------------------

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Broken tailwheel spring- revelation

Call John Mc Bean,  he sells them. 



You can make your own if  you can find 1 1/4 " wide springs but they  hard to find.  



IF you want one now just call and get it shipped right away. I forget price but I think  50 to 75$  area.  I got one and it works ok.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: Broken tailwheel spring- revelation

Call John or Debra McBean at Kitfox Aircraft, LLC, or just stay tuned  

in here, and John or Debra will answer your question.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/400+ hrs

do not archive



On Sep 17, 2007, at 8:39 PM, Steve Shinabery wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Too Lynn Matteson:  where can I get the triple leaf??I too only  

 have single leaf.and it all ready broke once on this plane.I want  

 to up date it all so.can U tell me where to go for this??Steve  

 Shinabery,N554KF,  KF2  582 gray head,,,St.Marys Ohio



 Mike Chaney wrote:

> Would a metal tube shaped like a C attached right in front of the  

> tail wheel spring serve as a stop to prevent damage in the event  

> of a tail wheel spring break?  This could resemble the skid used  

> on the d tail wheel planes.

>  Mike Chaney

>

> */Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>/* wrote:

>

>     

>

>     Not so fast there, Michel...when I broke my 2-leaf (main and  

> helper/

>     booster/whatever) I still got a bit of rash on my rudder  

> because the

>     tailwheel flopped around a bit and the rear of the plane  

> dropped down

>     to be SUPPORTED by the helper leaf (as it dragged along in the  

> dirt),

>     but the tailwheel could STILL cause you damage because it is no

>     longer held in position by anything. You could still break  

> your main

>     leaf and cause damage to the plane without the rudder actually

>     hitting the ground. With the new three-leaf spring, there are two

>     main leafs that have to break before the above scenario would  

> happen.

>     My 2-leaf spring broke at about the 450 or so landings mark, and

>     based on metallurgy, your new one may go before or after that.  

> I had

>     43 pounds on my tail during weighing. I bought the 3-leaf model

>     because it is a safety feature, not because I needed a stiffer  

> spring.

>     Taking this whole safety/stiffness thing a bit further, one might

>     conclude that if a spring were to be made of 1/8" (3mm)  

> leaves, one

>     could use maybe four leaves that are all held by the current two

>     bolts, that maybe a softer ride would result, and the safety  

> margin

>     would be much greater.

>     Lynn Matteson

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject: Broken tailwheel spring- revelation

It might, but you've still got the tailwheel flopping around back  

there, possibly causing some damage. Better (in my opinion) to do  

something to prevent...as much as possible...the breakage in the  

first place. By going to the three-piece spring, you will have two  

main leaves, thus giving you 100% redundancy....the chances of  

breaking both main leaves at the same time, thus putting the t'wheel  

into "flop mode" are pretty slim, I would think. And if you slam it  

down hard enough to do that, you've got other issues to deal with  

other than a little rash on the rudder.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/400+ hrs

On Sep 17, 2007, at 4:24 PM, Mike Chaney wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Would a metal tube shaped like a C attached right in front of the  

 tail wheel spring serve as a stop to prevent damage in the event of  

 a tail wheel spring break?  This could resemble the skid used on  

 the d tail wheel planes.



 Mike Chaney



 Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:

 



 Not so fast there, Michel...when I broke my 2-leaf (main and helper/

 booster/whatever) I still got a bit of rash on my rudder because the

 tailwheel flopped around a bit and the rear of the plane dropped down

 to be SUPPORTED by the helper leaf (as it dragged along in the dirt),

 but the tailwheel could STILL cause you damage because it is no

 longer held in position by anything. You could still break your main

 leaf and cause damage to the plane without the rudder actually

 hitting the ground. With the new three-leaf spring, there are two

 main leafs that have to break before the above scenario would happen.

 My 2-leaf spring broke at about the 450 or so landings mark, and

 based on metallurgy, your new one may go before or after that. I had

 43 pounds on my tail during weighing. I bought the 3-leaf model

 because it is a safety feature, not because I needed a stiffer spring.

 Taking this whole safety/stiffness thing a bit further, one might

 conclude that if a spring were to be made of 1/8" (3mm) leaves, one

 could use maybe four leaves that are all held by the current two

 bolts, that maybe a softer ride would result, and the safety margin

 would be much greater.

 Lynn Matteson

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: Broken tailwheel spring- revelation

On Sep 16, 2007, at 11:11 PM, dave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Not so,   The tailwheel will be bouncing around and likely go through 

 your rudder.


	


On Sep 17, 2007, at 12:28 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Not so fast there, Michel...when I broke my 2-leaf (main and 

 helper/booster/whatever) I still got a bit of rash on my rudder 

 because the tailwheel flopped around a bit and the rear of the plane 

 dropped down to be SUPPORTED by the helper leaf


	


Then I must have been very lucky, Dave and Lynn. When I broke my 

tailwheel spring, I was the right-hand seater; my son being the PIC. As 

I got out of the plane, I thought first that I had entirely lost the 

tailwheel because I couldn't see anything. It turned out that the right 

hand spring link to the rudder broke too and the wheel was trailed on 

the left side of the fuselage, away from the rudder.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



Do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

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