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Jabiriopa performance numbers

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TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:24 am Post subject: Jabiriopa performance numbers

In a message dated 9/24/2007 2:58:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Would you care to share any precise speed measurements (3 GPS runs,    max 

take off weight, record of altitude, OAT, etc.) ?

My Jabiru buddies    are getting soooo discreet when it comes to actual 

performance    ;-( 	
  

 Hi Gilles, 

  

 Sure, I've done many, many speed measurements, especially lately with all  the flow testing I've been doing on the wings and I'm happy to share my  numbers.  Mine is a trigear with an empty weight of 909lbs.  The C of  G is a little over 60". Typically what I see on a 75F day is 134 kts in cruise  at 2850 rpm at 3500' burning 4.6gph according to my Grand Rapids fuel flow  meter. One recent cross country flight I saw a TAS of 148kts at 7500' at  the same throttle setting. This is with a fixed pitch Sensenich hollow  carbon prop pitched as far as I can go and still operate safely out of my  2200' strip, 700' msl, with two on board, full fuel and baggage. I don't  pay much attention to MAP, though, since there isn't much I can to about it  without being turbo normalized. I did close off the overflow holes completely on  the Jab air intake in an effort to maximize MAP.

  

 I have flown at 1450 lbs gross on several occasions and I'm still  climbing in the neighborhood of 1200-1300 fpm. If I back off to 2650 RPM,  I cruise at 125kts and my fuel burn goes down to 3.8- 4.0  gph. I have worked hard on getting the mixture well balanced between  the cylinders by playing with the needle jet and needle setting, as well as the  float level in the carby. I''ve also twisting the carby slightly left from  vertical to even out the mixture.  I now have EGT's all within  about 40F of each other and my plugs are a nice tan color. I also am running the  Iridium plugs now with great success. This engine will idle at about 500  rpm with the Iridium plugs and still maintain about 22psi  OP.  I believe I have a handle on the cooling thing on all but the  hottest days, and then it's only an issue in extended climbs on the #4 cylinder.  FWIW, these are the same days my Rotax buddies also have shown cooling  issues in a variety of different applications, including the Europa. I did fit a  larger oil cooler than what came with the engine. That proved to work very well.  I never see oil temps over 190F, even on the hottest days. Fuel burn is very  comparable to the 912s, too.

  

 I don't know what it is that these other Jabiropa builder/fliers are doing  wrong, though.  I would go so far as to say that the Jabiru is  superior in a lot of ways over the 912s, particularly in terms of how smooth the  engine runs and of course, price. Contrary to the blather that has been spread  about the Jabiru/Europa combo on a variety of forums, I firmly believe the  Jabiru is a fine alternative to the Rotax 912s, provided you follow Jabiru  recommendations and undoubtedly it's a hell of a lot cheaper than  the 912s on this side of the pond. The parts are also  considerably cheaper, too. I'm really looking forward to the day when  Airmaster finally releases the new hub that fits the Sensenich blades.

  

 IMHO, I don't think the Jabiru factory cowl set fitted to the Europa  is going to work very well, though. I think it has to do with the "D" shape  of the intake holes. I think Andy Silvester/Suncoast  has the right  combo on his cowl set with the round intake holes, but I think the head cooling  ducts he sent with the engine leave a little bit to be desired. They're  made from fiberglass and they tend to soften from engine heat. That has proven  to be a problem and one that has caused some minor maintenance  issues. I'm not sure the left duct is the right shape, either. I'm  playing with Sonex style sheet metal head ducts now, but they are proving to be  a real bitch to fit their odd shape to the 4" round inlets. My "proof of  concept" version is going to have a lot of duct tape involved! I  should have a left duct fitted later today unless it's soarable again.  More  testing will follow and I suspect that I will run much cooler even on hot  days once I have them fitted. If it works as well as I anticipate, I'll whip out  a final version and probably make a right side metal duct, too.

  

  The Sonex boys seem to have all the cooling issues licked, so that's  the reason I'm trying what they do in terms of head cooling ducts to  achieve a better balance on the CHT's on really hot days and in extended  climbs. Below 90F I never see CHT's over 280F on either side, though, and  usually in the 240-250F range. Jabiru recommends 302F CHT max for extended  runs and 348F is max for short periods, like in climb. I will see 320F on #4 on  a hot day in climb, but it quickly cools to 285F or so once I establish cruise.  The rest stay below 300F.

  

 And before anybody chimes in and tells me I don't know what I'm talking  about when it comes to the Rotax and so everybody will know I'm not pulling my  Rotax numbers out of the air, I also own an Aeromot AMT 200S Super Ximango  motorglider with a certified 912s installed swinging a Hoffman 3 position  prop. So, I do side by side comparisons regularly and I'm very familiar with the  numbers on both engines. I have about 135 hours now in the Ximango and  117 or so in the Europa, so plenty of time to compare numbers. FWIW, I like  the 912s, but it is very complicated compared to the Jabiru and it shakes like  hell when you first crank it up. The Jab is much easier to crank when cold.  It just roars to life after a few swings of the blades without  all the shaking and no choke is ever needed, even on cold days. I think the  Jabiru is quieter, too. We tested it with dB meter and my neighbor's lawn mower  is louder than the Jab at take off power at similar distances.

  

 Graham, in regard to your question, I already sent some Jabiropa guys  over your way a fairly extensive overview of what I've done. Is there something  specific that they need to know? I'm happy to share and I've got tons and tons  of pictures.

 

Regards,

  

 John Lawton

 Whitwell, TN (TN89)

N245E - Flying

  	  Quote: 	
		  

 	
 

  



See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

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fswood(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: Jabiriopa performance numbers

HI, My Europa Classis has similar performance with a Jabiru 3300 and Prince  P-Tip prop,my cooling problems are still with me, but not so severe, after  Sylvester switched engines for me.As you are aware the later model Jabs have  larger cooling fins on the heads as well as other mods.Sylvester used my A-026  to make his cowling and test for cooling,he indicated to me that the cooling  issue appears to be solved after testing in the central Florida climate,it  certainly took him quite a while, here in Southern Alberta (Pincher Creek)  I still get minor problems on warmer days during climb out, but it is getting  better with more time on the engine, also we are at 3900ft elev which I am  certain impedes cooling.I have not had problems with the cooling air pleniums,I  also thought of trying an airmaster C.S.prop but am not sure if it has enough  twist at the hub to force the air through and as the Prince seems to be almost  doing the job I am going to leave it for a while to see what happens when I have  250+hrs  Hope this helps

                 Frank S Wood      C-FIYD

 [quote]   ---

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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: Jabiriopa performance numbers

 	  Quote: 	
		   Sure, I've done many, many speed measurements, especially lately with 

 all the flow testing I've been doing on the wings and I'm happy to 

 share my numbers.  Mine is a trigear with an empty weight of 909lbs.  

 The C of G is a little over 60". Typically what I see on a 75F day is 

 134 kts in cruise at 2850 rpm at 3500' burning 4.6gph according to my 

 Grand Rapids fuel flow meter. One recent cross country flight I saw a 

 TAS of 148kts at 7500' at the same throttle setting.....

  

 I have flown at 1450 lbs gross on several occasions and I'm still 

 climbing in the neighborhood of 1200-1300 fpm. If I back off to 2650 

 RPM, I cruise at 125kts and my fuel burn goes down to 3.8- 4.0 gph. I 

 have worked hard on getting the mixture well balanced between the 

 cylinders by playing with the needle jet and needle setting, as well 

 as the float level in the carby. I''ve also twisting the carby 

 slightly left from vertical to even out the mixture.  I now have EGT's 

 all within about 40F of each other and my plugs are a nice tan color. 

 I also am running the Iridium plugs now with great success. This 

 engine will idle at about 500 rpm with the Iridium plugs and still 

 maintain about 22psi OP.  I believe I have a handle on the cooling 

 thing on all but the hottest days, and then it's only an issue in 

 extended climbs on the #4 cylinder.


	


John,



Thank you for providing those much interesting numbers.

Very interesting data, indeed, and I'm sure many homebuilder will be 

interested in how you achieved a successful engine installation.



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject: Jabiriopa performance numbers

John

thanks a lot for that. There are three or four Jabiropas here. One I 

know of is very happy but the others less so. My main question is do you 

have any baffles to force the cooling air throught the fins, or do you 

rely on the pressure in the plenums? My friends are using deflectors 

rather than baffles which I feel is a bit imprecise. I am more familiar 

with the sort of baffles EZ guys use on Lyconental engines where careful 

baffling works well.

The Jabiru agents here in UK do not seem to have much in the way of good 

ideas.

Graham

 	  Quote: 	
		    

 Graham, in regard to your question, I already sent some Jabiropa guys 

 over your way a fairly extensive overview of what I've done. Is there 

 something specific that they need to know? I'm happy to share and I've 

 got tons and tons of pictures.

 

 Regards,

  

 John Lawton

 Whitwell, TN (TN89)

 N245E - Flying

 

 

      

 

  

 

 

 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

 

 *

 

 

 *


	


-- 

Graham Singleton



Tel: +441629820187

Mob: +447739582005

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fswood(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject: Jabiriopa performance numbers

Hi to all..re Jabiru performance.To add to my prior comments on this 

forum.Any other Canadians may come across the same problems I had with 

Transport Canada (aviation MDRA).With Sylvesters cowling fitted the datum on 

the front of the cowling is advanced by approx 5 inches compared to a 

Rotax.This led to some very interesting numbers when calculating the weight 

and balances with max  fuel two standard as speced occupants and examples of 

max fwd and max aft loadings when providing examples as required to fit in 

the envelope.Additional remarks about the Jabiru Europa combo are my empty 

weight is 890 lbs but I have yet to fit the wheel pants and fairings,yet my 

speed and fuel consumption are almost identical to Johns.I would appreciate 

any comments about the virtues of another prop.I spent some time resetting 

the Grand Rapids EFIS system but it seems to be correct now,had some 

problems with my Garmin GPS,a new aerial fixed that,but the Jabiru is 

vibration free and the sound it makes, well it is a purr that is a pleasure 

to behold,unlike any other it is the closest thing to poetry in motion that 

I know of.Canadian MDRA required that I change the clasps on the seat belts 

to the pull up to release type,the flex fuel hosing that is fine in the 

U.S.does not cut the mustard up here and in line fuel filters of the element 

type are an absolute no-no. Any Europa owners that are visiting out this way 

are welcome to contact me for a flight in the Rockies.Near us, in a valley 

is a particularly lofty mountain with a hole all the way through it, near 

the peak,my aviation pal with an RV6 swears that he could fly through it if 

he can tilt 90 deg first,I will send a picture to the Europa mag of the hole 

and mountain only.   Frank S Wood  C-FIYD

---

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