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Engine Monitoring

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dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: Engine Monitoring

Anyone hear an update from Dynon on their support for our radial 

engines?  Last I checked they only supported 4-6 cyl engines.  Is anyone 

using a graphical engine analyzer for their Yak or CJ?



Dabear

fougapilot

Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 88
Location: Flat on my back with minimum airspeed

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Engine Monitoring

Spoke to the owner of Dynon in OSH last summer. It is true that he owns a Nurphy Rebel with a radial engine in it, however he has no plans to come up with an engine monitoring system that will work on 9 cyl engines. 



Such is life.



Dan

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: Engine Monitoring

JP instruments makes a 9 cylinder monitor. I do not have any experience with

it though. 

Not sure what I would know what to do it the 1st through 3rd cylinder head

temp exceeded 200 C bumping into the Red while #4 read 180 C. 

Doc



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: Engine Monitoring

On Sep 26, 2007, at 8:10 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>



 JP instruments makes a 9 cylinder monitor. I do not have any  

 experience with

 it though.

 Not sure what I would know what to do it the 1st through 3rd  

 cylinder head

 temp exceeded 200 C bumping into the Red while #4 read 180 C.


	


Well, I think I would open the gills some more, enrichen the mixture,  

and possibly reduce power to keep the hottest CHTs in the green.



And as for Dynon, well, you could monitor six of the nine cyclinders.  

If you are using the stock instrumenation, right now you are only  

monitoring two (one for the front seat and one for the rear seat) and  

no EGT at all. So even if the Dynon is not perfect, you could monitor  

more.



And if you feel like doing more of a hack, you could add a 4-cyl CHT/ 

EGT switch and use it to select one of the remaining four cylinders  

and feed that into the sixth thermocouple channel.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

Mark Scrivener

Joined: 04 Aug 2007
Posts: 10
Location: San Jose, CA

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Engine Monitoring

I've used the JPI for several years now on my Mooney 231. Very nice to have, esp on a fuel injected Turbo and the fact that it has fuel flow tied in with my GPS. Oh, and you can set an alarm on any parameter (both high and low limits) - which helps if miss something in your scan.



That said, I'm not sure how useful it would be on my Yak 52. I can't adjust mixture (at least in flight), so I'm not going to lean with it, I don't have fuel injectors, so it won't tell me about a clogged injector, and I tend to fly with the vents 100% open most of the time (to keep CHT down) - so about all it will tell me is to lower the nose or reduce power - which I can tell from the single gauge.



I guess it would give you indication of a stuck valve or other conditions resulting in sub-par cylinder performance - which would be nice, but you are going to wire 18 temp probes just for CHT/EGT on each cylinder. Seems like a lot of work for little gain...



-Mark

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:34 pm Post subject: Engine Monitoring

Daammmnnnneeeedddd! Did not think of jiving up the Dynon (I have a D10 in

the 50). Mixture is pretty well set. Opening the gills, pulling the power

back, leveling off or descending (diving) is about all can be done in the 50

or 52 to lower the cylinder head temps. (Along with making sure that the oil

cooler door is wide open also). My point was, we monitor the cylinder with

the master crank but it tends to be 20 to 30 degrees cooler than 9 through

3. I can take laser temp measurements as soon as I shut down and see 20-30

degree differences between 1 and 4. Those 3 cylinders on top run hotter than

the others universally. 

It would be nice to see the temp from one of those cylinders during flight

but still monitor the #4 too. That is easily doable I know. Just have to

many other projects going on to worry with that right now.

Doc



--

dischenko(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: Engine Monitoring

I have now flown some 60 hours behind a Grand Rapids Technologies EFIS/EIS Horizon 1 system in an 18T. Thought I'd throw my 2 cents-worth, although my situation is different to that of most other listers' -- I use the plane primarily as a tourer (IFR capable, albeit I am not yet) and its panel is huge compared to that of other Yaks and CJs. The size of the panel allowed me to put in a two-screen system and to leave all native Russian engine gauges plus most of the Russian flight instruments as a backup. However, I feel even one screen would be great.  



First, the 9-cylinder issue. The GRT 9-cyl model is adapted from a 6-cyl one and therefore can only display 12 temperatures. 9 are allocated to EGT's and 3 to CHTs. There is a selector that allows to switch the CHTs between cylinders 1/2/3, 4/5/6 and 7/8/9. What is really handy is that you can toggle between a page with usual bar charts and one with time-graphs (and several other pages). The time graphs display two sets of lines (3 CHTs and 9 EGTs), all of different color, over the last 120 seconds (time is selectable). So when I approach the water (I am in England) or the mountains this is where I look before committing. I am not an expert but I've been told that a bad plug and many other problems should promptly show on the EGT graph. 



  Another "peace of mind" feature is what any engine monitor has -- alarms. The limits for each parameter are easily programmable (including things like max difference between EGTs and max rate of CHT cooling), and when a parameter hits its limit a warning starts flashing on the screen (impossible not to notice, but not so intrusive as to alert my passengers). My pilot experience is on the rookie side, and I have to admit that I would have probably cooked my engine by now if I did not have these alarms. 



Other things I like: can test my mags in flight by switching the EIS RPM feed between mags; can check air pressure in the air cylinder without pressurizing the system; fuel flow feature is indispensable for a tourer (although watching that low miles-per-liter number can be depressing, especially at European avgas prices). And the graphics is pretty cool imho, especially since GRT revamped the engine monitor pages. By the way, at my request GRT added the functionality to use Russian units, so what I see on the EIS agrees with the native gauges (and even all labels have been converted to metric, if not into Russian:).  



Now the bad news (which I suspect would kill it for many): the needles on manifold pressure and RPM dials on the screen take some fraction of a second longer to react than the corresponding native gauges. I find myself looking at the native gauges rather than the EIS when changing manifold/prop, especially at critical flight stages... 



Overall though I am very pleased with the system. There are lots of other cool and very useful features, and the flight instrumentation and nav sides are truly amazing (it comes with terrain; HITS synthetic approaches -- GRT even programmed in the small airfield I am based at which was not in the standard database; wind indicator; g-meter; flight path vector; lots of other good stuff). 



Hope this helps...



Denis

  [quote][b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: Engine Monitoring

Doc, Hubie Tolson put a single EGT gage in his Sukhoi-31 with a switch that allows you to switch to any one of the 9 and see what is going on.  This is "almost" what Brian was talking about.  I've talked to him and he says that the amazing thing is that the cylinders that run hot on the ground are NOT the ones that run hot while in the air!  I do not have any more details than that... But I found that fact rather interesting!



Mark

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: Engine Monitoring

Just a comment.  



I'd be curious what others have to say about Cylinder Head temps.  I

personally am a strong believer that they should be kept "medium hot".

Meaning, a minimum of middle to above middle of green. I've found that

the Russian piston rings expand quite significantly with heat.  Running

the engine .. Not hot... But "warmish" (to coin a new word) keeps the

oil cleaner, and also reduces lead deposits on the exhaust valves.  I'd

be curious as to other peoples experiences.  Of course, this also opens

the door to discussing the merits of MARVEL MYSTERY OIL!     



Mark Bitterlich 

  



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject: Engine Monitoring

On Sep 27, 2007, at 1:30 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>



 Daammmnnnneeeedddd! Did not think of jiving up the Dynon (I have a  

 D10 in

 the 50).


	


I don't understand what you just wrote.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Mixture is pretty well set.


	


In an M14, right. In a Huosai you do have a mixture control to fiddle  

with. My comment was meant to be generic.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Opening the gills, pulling the power

 back, leveling off or descending (diving) is about all can be done  

 in the 50

 or 52 to lower the cylinder head temps. (Along with making sure  

 that the oil

 cooler door is wide open also).


	


Right.



 	  Quote: 	
		   My point was, we monitor the cylinder with

 the master crank but it tends to be 20 to 30 degrees cooler than 9  

 through

 3. I can take laser temp measurements as soon as I shut down and  

 see 20-30

 degree differences between 1 and 4. Those 3 cylinders on top run  

 hotter than

 the others universally.


	


Then that is where the CHT probe(s) should be.



 	  Quote: 	
		   It would be nice to see the temp from one of those cylinders during  

 flight

 but still monitor the #4 too. That is easily doable I know. Just  

 have to

 many other projects going on to worry with that right now.


	


When all you have is one probe, the goal is to get it on the hottest  

cylinder. Since the M14P does not have a mixture control, there isn't  

a lot of use for an EGT.



So, yeah, I would put one CHT on the cylinder that the manufacturer  

uses, and then I would try to instrument the cylinders known to be  

hottest.

--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject: Engine Monitoring

On Sep 27, 2007, at 2:22 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 Doc, Hubie Tolson put a single EGT gage in his Sukhoi-31 with a  

 switch that allows you to switch to any one of the 9 and see what  

 is going on.  This is "almost" what Brian was talking about.  I've  

 talked to him and he says that the amazing thing is that the  

 cylinders that run hot on the ground are NOT the ones that run hot  

 while in the air!  I do not have any more details than that... But  

 I found that fact rather interesting!


	


The problem with EGT is that it tells you a LOT less than you think  

it does. First, it is a relative indication. Comparing absolute EGT  

numbers from two cylinders is totally meaningless. There are only two  

things that are meaningful in an EGT:



1. when the EGT peaks tells you when the cylinder has reached best  

stoichiometric mixture;



2. a sudden change in EGT that does not correspond to you fiddling  

with some engine control tells you something has happened in your  

engine (but not what).



Relative changes in EGT can let you know which cylinders are leaner  

or richer. And seeing sudden changes in EGT only works if you are  

monitoring them all.



OTOH, CHT tells you how long your cylinders are going to last. Run  

them cool and they will live longer. I find CHT to be much more  

meaningful to how I run my engine than EGT. If I had a choice of  

monitoring all my CHT -or- all my EGT, I would want full CHT  

monitoring. So with a monitor with 12 thermocouple inputs for a 9-cyl  

radial I would have 9 CHT and an EGT for each exhaust manifold.



But that's just me.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: Engine Monitoring

Brian/Mark,

Copy both. It is a project for a lousy winter day when I have not got

anything else to do. Since the EGT probe is on the #4 cylinder (master

crank) I'll leave that one alone. As you said Mark, it would be nice to see

what cylinders are hottest in the air. Anyone have that trend.

I can tell you which ones are hot on the ground after a ground runup for

maintenance or after taxiing in with a misfire. The thermal laser temp gauge

does come in handy for finding you cool cylinder then it becomes easier to

chase down the reason for the misfire by looking at all the usual suspects.

Doc



--

cd001633(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject: Engine Monitoring

I've been using JP Instrument 9 cylinder engine monitor for over 5 year.  I

have it with the fuel computer option which give me all the fuel data I need

(total, GPH real time, remaining fuel, etc).  The latest version has several

more add on options.  Great unit and good customer service.

You can visit them on JPinstruments.com .



Sam Sax

Miami



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: Engine Monitoring

Sam,

You are using it on your CJ?

Doc



--

cd001633(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: Engine Monitoring

Yes, in my CJ and M-14P and a 3 blade Whirlwind prop.



This instrument saved me some big $$ a couple years ago when I noticed an unusual EGT rise on Cyl. #8, with light vibrations starting immediately (while in cruise).

Seeing the problem saved a lot of time in searching for the problem cylinder.  Upon landing (away from home base) I proceeded directly to examine Cyl. # 8 and shortly thereafter found the culprit -- The front Spark plug was dead and left no living will....  I could only imagine how much time and $$ I would have to spend trying to find the problem going over the entire engine 200 miles from base.



I also use the CHT levles regularly in controlling CHT temps in climb and cruise etc - with louvers wide open, my M-14 runs too cold so I typically close as needed to maintain at least 160 Degrees. 



Sam Sax



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: Engine Monitoring

Sam,

Since you have the capability to monitor all 8 in flight, which cylinders do you see running hotter than the others? The top three are always hottest on the ground when I check them with a laser temp gun after shut down.

Doc



--

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