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naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: Zenith building expense

All-

      Yes, it is possible to  build a Zenith for under $30K if you have a basic panel and you never make a  mistake.The last thing I wanted to do was  dissuade anyone from building, but I do want people to understand that  homebuilding isn't a walk in the park. I dare any builder to say this is not  good advice!

      My main point was, build  costs were not less than the cost of an overhaul. When I was part owner of a  C-172, we upgraded to an Air Plains "Superhawk" conversion with a factory  new O-360. $23K for everything. 'Nuff said.

     Good building!

 Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville,  Pa

   [quote][b]

david_a_g_johnson(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: Zenith building expense

Everyone seems to be stressing the  cost of building, what about the benefits? (think  positively folks!).

  

 At the end of the project you have an aeroplane  that must be worth something, here in the UK kit-built aeroplanes sell for about  the cost of the kit. Also what is the value of what you have learned during the  build?

  

 Dave Johnson 

  

 601XL from a CZAW kit

 [quote]   ---

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: Zenith building expense

Well Mate,building a airplane is a good thing ,but  you must have a true pict. of what it's  going to cost. Cost is cost and  all it  ever does is go up,.over here .then there is the human factor to  want a better this or that. I always wanted to build a" proper " aero plane, and  to build a proper one,  I think it's better to have a better this or that  than to have a bad learning experinence on take-off or at 3ooo ft.

 [quote]   ---

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Zenith building expense

Building from scratch is pretty cheap. Figure $5,000 in materials, maybe a little more. Corvair with conversion, another $2,000. Basic instruments, $2,500 - $3,000. If it takes you 4 years that's $2,500/yr, or about $200/month.

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Zenith building expense

Get real! If you want to build a real plane, that is not really 

"experimental",  then you're talking Lycoming, Continental,

Rotax, Jabiru, etc. You're also going to spend money on other stuff.



If you scrounge, and convert a car engine, etc. you can be one of the 

miracle builders. But for the average guy, it's not gonna happen. PLus

it shouldn't. Do your families a favor, and don't hobby yourself into

becoming a statistic. Flying is dangerous enough.



Mid-Thirties is the bottom end - Realistically.  



Yes, I've seen stuff that looks like it was powered by Briggs and Stratton

with a carved 2x4 for a prop, I've also had the pleasure of watching

a hangar neighbor continuously wrenching on his NSI turbo Subaru,

which he enjoyed immensely since he was a tinkerer. Yep 12 hours of

wrenching for every hour of flight, not to mention the occasional dead

stick landing ....



Jeff

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Zenith building expense

I have gotten real, I built a hefty low-tolerance 8 foot bending brake with a 1/8 inch radius bend, made all the forms, and built a rudder, an elevator, a stabilizer, and wing for about $1,200 with rivets from Zenith and 6061-T6 from aircraft spruce. And every part is well within tolerances per Zenith. As far as an engine goes, go talk to William Wynne about Corvairs, they're excellent engines.



Don't get pissed at me you're struggling with a $20,000 kit less engine. LOL



Kind of reminds me of the people I meet at the dock. I come back in with my 1975 V-20 Wellcraft and it's 1986 140 evinrude full of fish and see guys in boatshow purchased floating livingrooms who didn't catch anything working on a bad battery cable, or better yet, boats sitting at the dock unused because they cost too much to operate and the owner is working weekends for the payments.



By the way, I haven't had to be towed in yet in 10 years of use with that boat. And no, I don't have a $800 fish finder. My brain is the fish finder. Just like my brain and $1,200 worth of generic instruments will replace the $7,000 glass panel avionics stack.



do not archive



 	  n85ae wrote: 	
		  Get real! If you want to build a real plane, that is not really 

"experimental",  then you're talking Lycoming, Continental,

Rotax, Jabiru, etc. You're also going to spend money on other stuff.



If you scrounge, and convert a car engine, etc. you can be one of the 

miracle builders. But for the average guy, it's not gonna happen. PLus

it shouldn't. Do your families a favor, and don't hobby yourself into

becoming a statistic. Flying is dangerous enough.



Mid-Thirties is the bottom end - Realistically.  



Yes, I've seen stuff that looks like it was powered by Briggs and Stratton

with a carved 2x4 for a prop, I've also had the pleasure of watching

a hangar neighbor continuously wrenching on his NSI turbo Subaru,

which he enjoyed immensely since he was a tinkerer. Yep 12 hours of

wrenching for every hour of flight, not to mention the occasional dead

stick landing ....



Jeff

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: Zenith building expense

I think his #'s are way off if you are wanting to scratch build a nice safe  aircraft.... The spread sheet attached is real world #'s with the part numbers  of a plane I did a builder assist on. It has aluminum brake and fuel lines and  the spread sheet includes all the fittings for them also. It doesn't include the  aluminum for scratch building as I used a kit. But I have been kicking around  the idea of scratch building one and the best I can figure it will cost around  25,000.

  

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 10/3/2007 10:41:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Building    from scratch is pretty cheap. Figure $5,000 in materials, maybe a little more.    Corvair with conversion, another $2,000. Basic instruments, $2,500 - $3,000.    If it takes you 4 years that's $2,500/yr, or about  $200/month.

	


 

  



See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

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bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: Zenith building expense

This topic is baaack!



Sorry list, but some of us including myself just can get enough of this topic. So here I go.



Jeff, no matter how much someone scrounge, We all agree that putting a Lyco, Continental, Jabiru or Rotax and spend less than 30K is close to impossible, even for non average builder. The < 30K crowd are those who are going for auto conversions, specially the Corvair. 



However, if you consider an auto conversion to be risky, unsafe, only reserved for miracle builders or not having a real airplane, then that's another big topic where you will find a lot of experienced builders disagreeing. 



Some builders consider an auto conversion a bad way to loose one's marbles, in the same way some pilots consider flying a homebuilt plane a bad way to loose one's marbles. I knew one pilot with over 2,000 flight hours who is instrument, multi engine certified and Mensa member, who consider flying a homebuilt plane a crazy idea. When I told him  that some builders have flown the Zodiac with Harley Davidson engine he rolled up his eyes so much that he saw his brain.



Andy, 2,000 for a converted Corvair is way low. 



Now, I'll just run for cover.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami, Florida



n85ae <n85ae(at)yahoo.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n85ae" 



Get real! If you want to build a real plane, that is not really 

"experimental",  then you're talking Lycoming, Continental,

Rotax, Jabiru, etc. You're also going to spend money on other stuff.



If you scrounge, and convert a car engine, etc. you can be one of the 

miracle builders. But for the average guy, it's not gonna happen. PLus

it shouldn't. Do your families a favor, and don't hobby yourself into

becoming a statistic. Flying is [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: Zenith building expense

To give you a lower  bound here is Bill Clapp's Corvair-powered KR2S built (with engine)  for $7200:

  

 http://www.krnet.org/krs/wc/

  

 Now somebody will say  "but it's composite".

  

 --  Craig

   [quote][b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Zenith building expense

No, those numbers are not way off. They're right on the money. I have spent $1,200 - $1,300 to build a rudder, the elevator, the stabilizer, and the left wing not including the ailerons including rivets from Zenith. Nothing unsafe about it. The parts are to spec per the plans. Just off the top of my head, I'd say I've used about  7 sheets of 4 x 12 6061-T6 in various thinknesses. A sheet from Aircraft spruce is about $90. So right there we're looking at about $650 for 85% of the materials required for those parts. Add in $350 for my 8' bending brake and we're up to $1,600 - $1,700.



Now if you consider those parts are identical to what would be shipped from Zenith, then that 'safety issue' is irrelavent. The next safety issue is the assembly process, in which case there is no difference between a scratch builder and a kit builder. Actually, if anything, the scratch builder may be a safer builder due to the skill set developed to actually make the parts to spec, giving the scratch builder an even better overall metalurgical best-practices understanding of the building process.



Simply by the fact that Zenith will sell you a kit (which you still have to put together) for $20,000 by definition indicates that the actual costs are a lot less. They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts (even though they're decent people) and selling you a kit at cost for the materials, they have to make a profit, otherwise why be in business.



 	  Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  I think his #'s are way off if you are wanting to scratch build a nice safe  aircraft.... The spread sheet attached is real world #'s with the part numbers  of a plane I did a builder assist on. It has aluminum brake and fuel lines and  the spread sheet includes all the fittings for them also. It doesn't include the  aluminum for scratch building as I used a kit. But I have been kicking around  the idea of scratch building one and the best I can figure it will cost around  25,000.

  

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 10/3/2007 10:41:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Building    from scratch is pretty cheap. Figure $5,000 in materials, maybe a little more.    Corvair with conversion, another $2,000. Basic instruments, $2,500 - $3,000.    If it takes you 4 years that's $2,500/yr, or about  $200/month.

	


 

  



See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

Last edited by ashontz on Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: Re: Zenith building expense

Sweet!!! Love it! Thanks for the link.



[quote="craig(at)craigandjean.com"]To give you a lower  bound here is Bill Clapp's Corvair-powered KR2S built (with engine)  for $7200:

  

 http://www.krnet.org/krs/wc/

  

 Now somebody will say  "but it's composite".

  

 --  Craig

    	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Zenith building expense

I've rebuilt a lot of engines in my day. I don't think it'll be much more than that. Maybe $3,000. I'm certainly not going to skimp on safety. If I can rebuild a 4 cylinder outboard engine or a car engine for $500, I can't imagine a Corvair being that much more, they're just parts and they're readily available. About the only difference is some of the specialty items on it.



[quote="bill_dom(at)yahoo.com"]This topic is baaack!



Sorry list, but some of us including myself just can get enough of this topic. So here I go.



Jeff, no matter how much someone scrounge, We all agree that putting a Lyco, Continental, Jabiru or Rotax and spend less than 30K is close to impossible, even for non average builder. The < 30K crowd are those who are going for auto conversions, specially the Corvair. 



However, if you consider an auto conversion to be risky, unsafe, only reserved for miracle builders or not having a real airplane, then that's another big topic where you will find a lot of experienced builders disagreeing. 



Some builders consider an auto conversion a bad way to loose one's marbles, in the same way some pilots consider flying a homebuilt plane a bad way to loose one's marbles. I knew one pilot with over 2,000 flight hours who is instrument, multi engine certified and Mensa member, who consider flying a homebuilt plane a crazy idea. When I told him  that some builders have flown the Zodiac with Harley Davidson engine he rolled up his eyes so much that he saw his brain.



Andy, 2,000 for a converted Corvair is way low. 



Now, I'll just run for cover.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami, Florida



n85ae <n85ae> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n85ae" 



Get real! If you want to build a real plane, that is not really 

"experimental",  then you're talking Lycoming, Continental,

Rotax, Jabiru, etc. You're also going to spend money on other stuff.



If you scrounge, and convert a car engine, etc. you can be one of the 

miracle builders. But for the average guy, it's not gonna happen. PLus

it shouldn't. Do your families a favor, and don't hobby yourself into

becoming a statistic. Flying is  	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Zenith building expense

I believe I see the secret to Williams 'success' in the background of one of the pix. Anyone else catch it? It's lime green. It's a drivable early 70s VW Beetle. He doesn't just build planes, he's been farting around with this type of stuff all his life I would guess.



[quote="craig(at)craigandjean.com"]To give you a lower  bound here is Bill Clapp's Corvair-powered KR2S built (with engine)  for $7200:

  

 http://www.krnet.org/krs/wc/

  

 Now somebody will say  "but it's composite".

  

 --  Craig

    	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Zenith building expense

I think mid thirties is the most realistic minimum. At least for anything

that I would think about flying. 



Jeff

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Zenith building expense

 	  n85ae wrote: 	
		  I think mid thirties is the most realistic minimum. At least for anything

that I would think about flying. 



Jeff 	




Ok, I'll build you one and sell it to you for $35,000. Then we'll know it's nice and safe. LOL



Price-wise, what makes it safe? Because it was purchased as a kit, even though 51% of the work was completed by some homebuilder of questionable talent. Or is it the $25,000 O-200 Lycoming engine from Aircraft Spruce? I'm just curious as to the logic?



What if I was an A&P mechanic and I built the hull for $6,000 and rebuilt an O-200 I had laying around myself for another $3,000 for a total of $9,000. Would it be safe?



Last I checked, you can still find airworthy flying, fresh annualed Cessna 152s for $15,000, and that has a Lycoming in it. By the $35,000 logic, that would not be considered safe. Or, if you go by the logic that it's a factory plane and has a Lycoming, it's sfe, even though it's 35 - 40 years old.

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: Zenith building expense

Yarde Metals is still cheaper than Aircraft Spruce and they pack the material very nicely.  You will need to purchase 5 to 8 sheet at a time in order to take advantage of their better pricing.

William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami, Florida

ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 

No, those numbers are not way off. They're right on the money. I have spent $1,200 - $1,300 to build a rudder, the elevator, the stabilizer, and the left wing not including the ailerons including rivets from Zenith. Nothing unsafe about it. The parts are to spec per the plans. Just off the top of my head, I'd say I've used about  7 sheets of 4 x 12 6061-T6 in various thinknesses. A sheet from Aircraft spruce is about $90. So right there we're looking at about $650 for 85%  of the materials required for those parts. Add in $350 for my 8' bending brake and we're up to $1,600 - $1,700.

Now if you consider those parts are identical to what would be shipped from Zenith, then that 'safety issue' is irrelavent. The next safety issue is the assembly process, in which case there is no difference between a scratch builder and a kit builder. Actually, if anything, the scratch builder may be a safer builder due to the skill set developed to actually make the parts to spec, giving the scratch builder an even better overall metalurgical best-practices understanding of the building process.

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think his #'s are way off if you are wanting to scratch build a nice safe  aircraft.... The spread sheet attached is real world #'s with the part numbers  of a plane I did a builder assist on. It has aluminum brake and fuel lines and  the spread sheet includes all the fittings for them also. It doesn't include the   aluminum for scratch building as I used a kit. But I have been kicking around  the idea of scratch building one and the best I can figure it will cost around  25,000.

  In a message dated 10/3/2007 10:41:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:

 > Building    from scratch is pretty cheap. Figure $5,000 in materials, maybe a little more.    Corvair with conversion, another $2,000. Basic instruments, $2,500 - $3,000.    If it takes you 4 years that's $2,500/yr, or about  $200/month.

 > 

 See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

--------

Andy Shontz

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz

Read this topic online [quote][b]

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: Zenith building expense

All I have to say is good luck with your 5,000 build as almost every one  here has said it is between 25 and 30 thousand to get a plane into the air. I  never said scratch building was unsafe or some how a lesser aircraft. But you  will find your 5,000 figure is going to grow to around 8 or 9 thousand and if  you look at my spread sheet you will see that WW's parts are around 5,000 to do  a safe conversion and the engine parts from clarks is 2,500.00 again to build  a safe reliable engine conversion and that doesn't count the 150.00 nitrate  or machine work. If you use falcon heads another 1,200 so just  the FWF is around 8,800.00 not counting the cowling, carb, airbox etc. So I  would say your #'s are off. I have built one and the numbers are what they  are. 

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 10/3/2007 1:33:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  No,    those numbers are not way off. They're right on the money. I have spent $1,200    - $1,300 to build a rudder, the elevator, the stabilizer, and the left wing    not including the ailerons including rivets from Zenith. Nothing unsafe about    it. The parts are to spec per the plans. Just off the top of my head, I'd say    I've used about  7 sheets of 4 x 12 6061-T6 in various thinknesses. A    sheet from Aircraft spruce is about $90. So right there we're looking at about    $650 for 85% of the materials required for those parts. Add in $350 for my 8'    bending brake and we're up to $1,600 - $1,700.

	


 

  



See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: Zenith building expense

If you made all of the parts yourself then you can get it around 3,000. But if you buy all the parts from Clarks, WW and get your heads done by Falcon and you crank by Nitron, then you are talking about 6K to 7K. Excluding FWF.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami, Florida



ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 



I've rebuilt a lot of engines in my day. I don't think it'll be much more than that. Maybe $3,000. I'm certainly not going to skimp on safety. If I can rebuild a 4 cylinder outboard engine or a car engine for $500, I can't imagine a Corvair being that much more, they're just parts and they're readily available. About the only difference is some of the specialty items on it.



[quote="bill_dom(at)yahoo.com"]This topic is  baaack!



Sorry list, but some of us including myself just can get enough of this topic. So here I go.



Jeff, no matter how much someone scrounge, We all agree that putting a Lyco, Continental, Jabiru or Rotax and spend less than 30K is close to impossible, even for non average builder. The < 30K crowd are those who are going for auto conversions, specially the Corvair. 



However, if you consider an auto conversion to be risky, unsafe, only reserved for miracle builders or not having a real airplane, then that's another big topic where you will find a lot of experienced builders disagreeing. 



Some builders consider an auto conversion a bad way to loose one's marbles, in the same way some pilots consider flying a homebuilt plane a bad way to loose one's marbles. I knew one pilot with over 2,000 flight hours who is instrument, multi engine certified and Mensa member, who consider flying a homebuilt plane a crazy idea. When I told him  that some  builders have flown the Zodiac with Harley Davidson engine he rolled up his eyes so much that he saw his brain.



Andy, 2,000 for a converted Corvair is way low. 



Now, I'll just run for cover.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami, Florida



n85ae  wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n85ae" 



Get real! If you want to build a real plane, that is not really 

"experimental",  then you're talking Lycoming, Continental,

Rotax, Jabiru, etc. You're also going to spend money on other stuff.



If you scrounge, and convert a car engine, etc. you can be one of the 

miracle builders. But for the average guy, it's not gonna happen. PLus

it shouldn't. Do your families a favor, and don't hobby yourself into

becoming a statistic. Flying is 

 	  Quote: 	
		   [b]


	




--------

Andy Shontz

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





Read this topic online [quote][b]

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:49 am Post subject: Zenith building expense

Just build it..... who care's what it costs. If you do it for 5,000 10,000  who cares as long as your happy with it. My numbers are based on what it cost's  me to build one the way I want it built. You may choose to build one with less  expensive things if so when your done send us a pic and a list of costs to help  other builders build theirs cheaper.

  

  

 In a message dated 10/3/2007 2:40:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Ok, I'll    build you one and sell it to you for $35,000. Then we'll know it's nice and    safe. LOL

	


 

  



See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Zenith building expense

Not to drag on, but just adding up what you have listed here, by your own account, looks more like 9,000 + 8,800 for fuselage and engine. Where's the extra $17,200? If you're not going ape with avionics, even by your own admission you should be under $20,000.



Even so, I said $5,000 - $6,000 for fuselage, $10,000 total, that's a possibility for a bare bones plane, depending on how much of the engine I do myself, and I will do a lot.



[quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]All I have to say is good luck with your 5,000 build as almost every one  here has said it is between 25 and 30 thousand to get a plane into the air. I  never said scratch building was unsafe or some how a lesser aircraft. But you  will find your 5,000 figure is going to grow to around 8 or 9 thousand and if  you look at my spread sheet you will see that WW's parts are around 5,000 to do  a safe conversion and the engine parts from clarks is 2,500.00 again to build  a safe reliable engine conversion and that doesn't count the 150.00 nitrate  or machine work. If you use falcon heads another 1,200 so just  the FWF is around 8,800.00 not counting the cowling, carb, airbox etc. So I  would say your #'s are off. I have built one and the numbers are what they  are. 

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 10/3/2007 1:33:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  No,    those numbers are not way off. They're right on the money. I have spent $1,200    - $1,300 to build a rudder, the elevator, the stabilizer, and the left wing    not including the ailerons including rivets from Zenith. Nothing unsafe about    it. The parts are to spec per the plans. Just off the top of my head, I'd say    I've used about  7 sheets of 4 x 12 6061-T6 in various thinknesses. A    sheet from Aircraft spruce is about $90. So right there we're looking at about    $650 for 85% of the materials required for those parts. Add in $350 for my 8'    bending brake and we're up to $1,600 - $1,700.

	


 

  



See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

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