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New Warp Drive

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DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: New Warp Drive

       Group

  

        I just received my new  64  ''  2- blade  Warp that I plan on putting on my firefly with  447, instead of my Ivo, which had an adjustment ear break off. Problem is  the bolts supplied are only long enough to reach through the prop, without the  spacer. Will the Warp hit the trailing edge without the spacer,or is it  stiff enough that it will work without the spacer.  

        What pitch should I start with?

                                                                                                                                    Also,  I weighed the 64' warp and it weighs 8.25 lbs. Has anyone  weighed a 66" Ivo?

  

          Any input from someone  with experience in these areas would be most helpfull !

  

     

             Ed    Diebel        FF62



See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: Re: New Warp Drive

Hope you got something stronger than a "B" box fer dat Warp....



 Pitch ???  you gonna set it by 6200 RPM , aren't you....???



 You can just guess the pitch and go from there....



                 Gotta Fly...

                                 Mike & "Jaz" -  stuck with "B" box & IVO

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: New Warp Drive

Having a spacer will lesson the prop noise as it passes the wing,  I dont know how close it is on the firefly, but you dont want it to close.  I would think it could also be hard on the fabric if it were passing that close.   I use a 4 inch spacer on my MK III.   I would get the long bolts and use the spacer...



The weight might be more than the recommendations of the gear box.  But not to worry, you can get a C - Box that will handle the extra weight of the warp just fine for 1200 bucks    If I had the B box, I would be tempted to put the warp on it, but its technically to heavy for that gear box, and it might or might not last long.   I got a powerfin when I needed a new prop for the 447 to keep the weight within limits...



What is the adjustment ear ?  I am not familiar with the IVO, but you now have a nice protractor to set the pitch of the prop, you could use that to set the pitch on the IVO and fly for now.  The warp protractor is a really accurate way to set your pitch.



Like Planecrazzy said, I would set it for 6200 RPM static...  There is nothing to gain by setting the RPM very high except wearing out your engine sooner, or even increasing the chance of it failing.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: New Warp Drive

Hey Jet Pilot,

                   The ear he's talking about on an IVO prop , is this....



 There's a long Torsion rod that is molded into the blade....

at the base of the blade....a tab/ear/arm is welded on the torsion rod....



 The way IVO's are adjusted.....no matter how many blades....



 A  threaded rod with a groove around it ( tabs fit into the groove )



 will be turned and apply pressure to the torsion rods , changing the pitch

of the blades..... All blades are adjusted at the same time....



 If a tab is broken , that blade won't change.....



The older IVO's are changed by moving BIG washers from front to back

 They were doing basicly the same thing....putting pressure on the tabs...

 Gotta Fly...

 Mike & "Jaz" in MN



PS  Did you buy a TIG machine ???



I just ordered the wood for the wings on the Buttercup that I'm starting to build....

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buttercup-STOL/



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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: New Warp Drive

Ed, Look up the report I did last winter on prop inertia testing in the archives. I don't remember the weight of the Ivo I tested. It was a three blade, so it might not be of much help, anyway.

Probably the most important thing you can do for the health of your gearbox, a "B", I'm guessing, is to do the inertia testing on your new Warp Drive. It is very easy to do and will give you the info on just how far out of limit you are. 

As for running the prop, set your idle RPM high enough so you don't get gear chatter and make throttle changes smoothly.

I'm attaching the Rotax service instruction on inertia testing.



Rick



 On 9/29/07, DAquaNut(at)aol.com (DAquaNut(at)aol.com) <DAquaNut(at)aol.com (DAquaNut(at)aol.com)> wrote:[quote]       

                   Group

  

        I just received my new  64  ''  2- blade  Warp that I plan on putting on my firefly with  447, instead of my Ivo, which had an adjustment ear break off. Problem is  the bolts supplied are only long enough to reach through the prop, without the  spacer. Will the Warp hit the trailing edge without the spacer,or is it  stiff enough that it will work without the spacer.  

        What pitch should I start with?

                                                                                                                                    Also,  I weighed the 64' warp and it weighs 8.25 lbs. Has anyone  weighed a 66" Ivo?

  

          Any input from someone  with experience in these areas would be most helpfull !

  

     

             Ed    Diebel        FF62



 See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List http://forums.matronics.com 

when you live at the airport.

Propellor_Moment_of_Inertia.pdf

Description:

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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject: New Warp Drive

Mike, The ear Ed referred to is connected to the steel rod that runs inside the blade. Ivos adjust the pitch by twisting this rod. Without the ear, I don't know of any way to set the pitch. I suppose you could have a bunch of wedges machined but it seems like more trouble than it's worth. 



Rick



On 9/29/07, JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)>



Having a spacer will lesson the prop noise as it passes the wing,  I dont know how close it is on the firefly, but you dont want it to close.  I would think it could also be hard on the fabric if it were passing that close.   I use a 4 inch spacer on my MK III.   I would get the long bolts and use the spacer... 



The weight might be more than the recommendations of the gear box.  But not to worry, you can get a C - Box that will handle the extra weight of the warp just fine for 1200 bucks    If I had the B box, I would be tempted to put the warp on it, but its technically to heavy for that gear box, and it might or might not last long.   I got a powerfin when I needed a new prop for the 447 to keep the weight within limits... 



What is the adjustment ear ?  I am not familiar with the IVO, but you now have a nice protractor to set the pitch of the prop, you could use that to set the pitch on the IVO and fly for now.  The warp protractor is a really accurate way to set your pitch. 



Like Planecrazzy said, I would set it for 6200 RPM static...  There is nothing to gain by setting the RPM very high except wearing out your engine sooner, or even increasing the chance of it failing.



Mike

 

--------

"NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!



Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





Read this topic online here:



 

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: New Warp Drive

Ed, There's one more thing I forgot to mention. Did you get the blades tapered? If not, you might want to consider sending the blades back to warp and getting it done. This will take weight off the area that has the largest effect on the inertia of the prop. 



Rick



On 9/29/07, Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] Ed, Look up the report I did last winter on prop inertia testing in the archives. I don't remember the weight of the Ivo I tested. It was a three blade, so it might not be of much help, anyway.

Probably the most important thing you can do for the health of your gearbox, a "B", I'm guessing, is to do the inertia testing on your new Warp Drive. It is very easy to do and will give you the info on just how far out of limit you are. 

As for running the prop, set your idle RPM high enough so you don't get gear chatter and make throttle changes smoothly.

I'm attaching the Rotax service instruction on inertia testing.



Rick 



 On 9/29/07, DAquaNut(at)aol.com (DAquaNut(at)aol.com) < DAquaNut(at)aol.com (DAquaNut(at)aol.com)> wrote:[quote]       

                   Group

  

        I just received my new  64  ''  2- blade  Warp that I plan on putting on my firefly with  447, instead of my Ivo, which had an adjustment ear break off. Problem is  the bolts supplied are only long enough to reach through the prop, without the  spacer. Will the Warp hit the trailing edge without the spacer,or is it  stiff enough that it will work without the spacer.  

        What pitch should I start with?

                                                                                                                                    Also,  I weighed the 64' warp and it weighs 8.25 lbs. Has anyone  weighed a 66" Ivo?

  

          Any input from someone  with experience in these areas would be most helpfull !

  

     

             Ed    Diebel        FF62



  See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]   http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List  http://forums.matronics.com 

takes on a whole new meaning 

when you live at the airport. 	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject: New Warp Drive

In a message dated 9/29/2007 9:02:14 P.M. Central Standard Time,  jindoguy(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Ed,    There's one more thing I forgot to mention. Did you get the blades tapered? If    not, you might want to consider sending the blades back to warp and getting it    done. This will take weight off the area that has the largest effect on the    inertia of the prop. 



Rick 	


 

           Rick,

  

     Yes I did get the blades tapered .  Thanks for your  replies and the info on inertia testing. I plan on testing as soon as I can. It  is not real clear as to how they attach the wires to the prop but I will try to  rig it like the diagram.

  

               Ed



See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: New Warp Drive

I made an attachment plate from a piece of scrap plywood. The two smaller holes at 90 degrees to the centerline were used to test an old Soarmaster prop from the olds when you had to foot launch ultralights. I used .032 safety wire to suspend the prop being tested from a piece of square steel tubing I "C" clamped from the hangar frame and braced the tube with a couple of pieces of steel flat stock I took from my scrap bin. The whole apparatus took about 15 minutes to make. I used the stop watch I bought for testing Vx and Vy speeds during phase 1 testing of my mk 3 and repeated the test 3 times and took the average time. About the hardest thing about it all was trying to eliminate as much of any extraneous side to side rocking as possible. With a little practice I got pretty good at eyeballing the center mark as being in the center of the twisting motion. Once you get it moving with the center mark as still as possible you can count 30 swings, write down the time, count 30 more, write down the second time and count 30 more. Like any pendulum, as the arc gets shorter the speed the arc slows down. In doing 95 to 100 total swings to get three 30 swing tests each set was within a few tenths of a second for each of the three. With mounting and dismounting, I tested five props in about an hour and a half, and that included a break to make a pot of coffee in the middle of the testing. 



Rick



On 9/30/07, DAquaNut(at)aol.com (DAquaNut(at)aol.com) <DAquaNut(at)aol.com (DAquaNut(at)aol.com)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		        In a message dated 9/29/2007 9:02:14 P.M. Central Standard Time,  jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Ed,    There's one more thing I forgot to mention. Did you get the blades tapered? If    not, you might want to consider sending the blades back to warp and getting it    done. This will take weight off the area that has the largest effect on the    inertia of the prop. 



Rick 	


 

           Rick,

  

     Yes I did get the blades tapered .  Thanks for your  replies and the info on inertia testing. I plan on testing as soon as I can. It  is not real clear as to how they attach the wires to the prop but I will try to  rig it like the diagram.

  

               Ed



 See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

   	  Quote: 	
		  



= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page,

ronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

k" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">

http://forums.matronics.com

=========== 	


	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning 

when you live at the airport.

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: Re: New Warp Drive

Here is a report of someone using a Warp Drive prop on a B - Gear box.  I agree very strongly with his suggestion of using Synthetic Mobil 1 Gearbox oil, not just with a warp drive, but with any prop !

" I'm not John, but try a two blade 64" Warp, (or be really conservative and use a 62" two blade Warp) and use only Mobil One synthetic in your gearbox, and you'll probably get by without hurting the gearbox, and you'll probably be very satisfied. I got a couple hundred hours out of my B box with a Warp 66" two blade, but that was with ordinary gearbox lube. A shorter prop and better lube and you ought to do OK. 



Richard Pike 

MKIII N420P (42oldpoops) "

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: New Warp Drive

The second sentence should read, "from the old days".



On 9/30/07, Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com) > wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  I made an attachment plate from a piece of scrap plywood. The two smaller holes at 90 degrees to the centerline were used to test an old Soarmaster prop from the olds when you had to foot launch ultralights. I used .032 safety wire to suspend the prop being tested from a piece of square steel tubing I "C" clamped from the hangar frame and braced the tube with a couple of pieces of steel flat stock I took from my scrap bin. The whole apparatus took about 15 minutes to make. I used the stop watch I bought for testing Vx and Vy speeds during phase 1 testing of my mk 3 and repeated the test 3 times and took the average time. About the hardest thing about it all was trying to eliminate as much of any extraneous side to side rocking as possible. With a little practice I got pretty good at eyeballing the center mark as being in the center of the twisting motion. Once you get it moving with the center mark as still as possible you can count 30 swings, write down the time, count 30 more, write down the second time and count 30 more. Like any pendulum, as the arc gets shorter the speed the arc slows down. In doing 95 to 100 total swings to get three 30 swing tests each set was within a few tenths of a second for each of the three. With mounting and dismounting, I tested five props in about an hour and a half, and that included a break to make a pot of coffee in the middle of the testing. 



Rick



On 9/30/07,  DAquaNut(at)aol.com (DAquaNut(at)aol.com) <DAquaNut(at)aol.com (DAquaNut(at)aol.com)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		        In a message dated 9/29/2007 9:02:14 P.M. Central Standard Time,  jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Ed,    There's one more thing I forgot to mention. Did you get the blades tapered? If    not, you might want to consider sending the blades back to warp and getting it    done. This will take weight off the area that has the largest effect on the    inertia of the prop. 



Rick 	


 

           Rick,

  

     Yes I did get the blades tapered .  Thanks for your  replies and the info on inertia testing. I plan on testing as soon as I can. It  is not real clear as to how they attach the wires to the prop but I will try to  rig it like the diagram.

  

               Ed



  See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

   	  Quote: 	
		  



= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page,

.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">



http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

k" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">



http://forums.matronics.com

=========== 	


	




-- 

Rick Girard 

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning 

when you live at the airport. 

	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: New Warp Drive

Another question occurred to me while out walking the dog, just now. Ed, you didn't mention whether your 447 is a single carb or dual. If it's the dual carb, make sure and do the carb synchronization as accurately as you possibly can. Anything you can do to make the engine run as smooth as possible is going to make the loads on the gearbox that much less. Of course, if you have a single carb, in the words of Emily Littela, "Never mind". 



Rick



On 9/30/07, JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)>



Here is a report of someone using a Warp Drive prop on a B - Gear box.  I agree very strongly with his suggestion of using Synthetic Mobil 1 Gearbox oil, not just with a warp drive, but with any prop ! 

" I'm not John, but try a two blade 64" Warp, (or be really conservative and use a 62" two blade Warp) and use only Mobil One synthetic in your gearbox, and you'll probably get by without hurting the gearbox, and you'll probably be very satisfied. I got a couple hundred hours out of my B box with a Warp 66" two blade, but that was with ordinary gearbox lube. A shorter prop and better lube and you ought to do OK. 



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (42oldpoops) "



--------

"NO FEAR" -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!



Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





Read this topic online here: 



	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: New Warp Drive

At 03:40 PM 9/30/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Another question occurred to me while out walking the dog, just now. 

Ed, you didn't mention whether your 447 is a single carb or dual. If 

it's the dual carb, make sure and do the carb synchronization as 

accurately as you possibly can. Anything you can do to make the 

engine run as smooth as possible is going to make the loads on the 

gearbox that much less. Of course, if you have a single carb, in the 

words of Emily Littela, "Never mind".



Rick


	


I've got a 68" three blade Warp Drive on mine.

I've also got a 503 dual carb and an "E" (same as "C" with a starter) gear box.

700 + hours so far and no problems.

I wouldn't think a two blade 64" Warp would hurt - even if it is a 

lowly, finicky 447.

If it so - we surely would have heard about it by now.

I use to run a two blade 68" Warp on my old single carb 447 Firestar

and never had any problems. It might sink a little faster than an Ivo if you

land in the water........but other than that?

Besides, I've sealed my wings now - so I can float !

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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: New Warp Drive

I run a 68" 3 blade un tapered Warp Drive on my 582 with a "C" gearbox and have had no problems The Warp has high inertia but it falls within limits, barely. Even so I always change throttle settings smooth and gradual. I was running a Rice King clutch but I worked a trade for the standard rubber donut drive damper and some flying time at Wallaby Ranch when I go to Sun n Fun 2008 next April so I've got to follow all the advice I've been handing out to Ed.  



Rick



On 9/30/07, possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net (possums(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   At 03:40 PM 9/30/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Another question occurred to me while out walking the dog, just now.

Ed, you didn't mention whether your 447 is a single carb or dual. If

it's the dual carb, make sure and do the carb synchronization as 

accurately as you possibly can. Anything you can do to make the

engine run as smooth as possible is going to make the loads on the

gearbox that much less. Of course, if you have a single carb, in the 

words of Emily Littela, "Never mind".



Rick


	


I've got a 68" three blade Warp Drive on mine.

I've also got a 503 dual carb and an "E" (same as "C" with a starter) gear box. 

700 + hours so far and no problems.

I wouldn't think a two blade 64" Warp would hurt - even if it is a

lowly, finicky 447.

If it so - we surely would have heard about it by now.

I use to run a two blade 68" Warp on my old single carb 447 Firestar 

and never had any problems. It might sink a little faster than an Ivo if you

land in the water........but other than that?

Besides, I've sealed my wings now - so I can float ! 

	




 

-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: New Warp Drive

In a message dated 9/30/2007 10:46:30 P.M. Central Standard Time,  jindoguy(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I run a    68" 3 blade un tapered Warp Drive on my 582 with a "C" gearbox and have had no    problems The Warp has high inertia but it falls within limits, barely. Even so    I always change throttle settings smooth and gradual. I was running a Rice    King clutch but I worked a trade for the standard rubber donut drive damper    and some flying time at Wallaby Ranch when I go to Sun n Fun 2008 next April    so I've got to follow all the advice I've been handing out to Ed.     



Rick

	


 

                 At this point I would like to know if I have enough clearance  on my  firefly, to run the 64"Warp without a spacer. It doesn't seem to flex at all  !  If In fact I do need a spacer can I use grade 5 bolts?

  

              Ed



See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:27 pm Post subject: New Warp Drive

Ed, I don't run a spacer on my Warp Drive and the prop blades don't seem to flex at all. 

I would run the 8.8 spec metric bolts that came with the prop (equivalent to grade 6 AN bolts). Grade 5 bolts are a carbon steel bolt, while the  8.8, like the AN's are an alloy steel.  The difference is in the alloy steels ability to bend without getting brittle as the grade 5's do.



Rick



On 10/1/07,  DAquaNut(at)aol.com (DAquaNut(at)aol.com) <DAquaNut(at)aol.com (DAquaNut(at)aol.com)> wrote:[quote]       In a message dated 9/30/2007 10:46:30 P.M. Central Standard Time,  jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I run a    68" 3 blade un tapered Warp Drive on my 582 with a "C" gearbox and have had no    problems The Warp has high inertia but it falls within limits, barely. Even so    I always change throttle settings smooth and gradual. I was running a Rice    King clutch but I worked a trade for the standard rubber donut drive damper    and some flying time at Wallaby Ranch when I go to Sun n Fun 2008 next April    so I've got to follow all the advice I've been handing out to Ed.     



Rick

	


 

                 At this point I would like to know if I have enough clearance  on my  firefly, to run the 64"Warp without a spacer. It doesn't seem to flex at all  !  If In fact I do need a spacer can I use grade 5 bolts?

  

              Ed



 See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List http://forums.matronics.com 

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: New Warp Drive

I ran a 68 warp drive on my Firestar and it did  alright, however the fabric was getting a real beating and the noise was pretty  bad. I put a spacer on it that required 6 1/4 8.8 bolts in it.  I  ordered them through John Deere, the only place I could find them, but there are  others.

 Larry C

 [quote]   do not archive

    

                   At this point I would like to know if I have enough clearance  on my    firefly, to run the 64"Warp without a spacer. It doesn't seem to flex at all    !  If In fact I do need a spacer can I use grade 5 bolts?

    

                  Ed



         See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your    Homepage.

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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	
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