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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

I just got back fro the Kolb Homecoming. Richard Pike and John Hauck faced  off for the Grand Vortex Generator Challenge. It  was a draw!!!!!!! 

As a bit of a background: 

Richard Pike - He has a highly modified MKIII with  the most VGs I have ever seen on one airplane with 582 Rotax. It is light,  streamlined and clearly configured for slow flight. 

John Hauck  - His airplane MKIII is clearly  built for a different mission. It is in comparison more than 100 lbs heaver than  Richards airplane and has no VGs. I assumed that John would surely be  eating crow. 

They did three slow flight fly overs at app.  500ft. The winner would fly the slowest.  

John H. clearly wanted to win. John was flying with  full flaps and had the power on to maintain altitude in a mush. On the  first pass John must have stalled ten times and lost some altitude at one point  but held even with Richard. On the last two passes John had the routine  down and only stalled a few times but was on the edge again holding even with  Richard.  

Richard was rock solid on all passes with not a hint of stall but not  noticeably any slower. John said he saw Richard occasionally used flaps but it  wasn't something we could see from the ground. It appeared Richard had a much  easier time flying.  

As a final observation:  With the weight differences Richard should have  won. The effort John put in to keeping slowed down with Richard would make up  for the weight difference. I find it hard to believe but it would appear that  the VGs didn't help a bit.  

Will this settle the controversy? Don't think so. 

  

Rick Neilsen 

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC 

 

   [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Pretty good analysis, now let me fill in the gaps from my onboard  perspective...

  

 John and I taxied out, we had discussed it and I was supposed to take  off first, he would join up with me, we turn final together at around 50 and  then slow down to whatever. I got to the runup area and discovered I had no  radio. (My bad, I had been using my noise canceling earbuds in conjunction with  my headset, and discovered about half way home that the plug for the earbuds  wasn't all the way in.) Sat in the runup area, fiddled with the cords and plugs  for a while, decided the radio had died, and went ahead and took off. 

  

 First pass, I never did see John, had no idea where he was. The idea of  flying a semi-formation with anybody that I can't talk to and can't see is not  my idea of a smiley-face event, so my desire to fly as slow as possible was  balanced by my desire to make real sure that I held my altitude exactly,  and did not stall. (Emphasis on the "did not stall") I figured that if he could  see me, and I didn't do anything but fly straight and level, no one would get  hurt. Earlier Saturday, while I was passing over London, Ky, I tried a little  slow flight flight just to brush up, and in perfectly smooth air, I could get  the airspeed to read 22-23 before it stalled. Obviously not an accurate reading,  but at least a reference number. During the pass down the runway, in somewhat  bumpy air, I felt uncomfortable getting below 26 indicated, because I couldn't  see my wingman, and if I stalled and got into him... There are no excuses for  being dumb and hurting your buddies.

  

 Second pass, I could see John, he was slightly ahead of me to my right  and lower, it looked like our speeds matched, I was using about 5300 rpm and  trying to hold 26 indicated. I noticed that as we got toward the east end  of the runway, John was climbing, and I actually had to start a left turn to  stay out of his way. I assumed that he had decided thrust was a good  substitute for lift... (Great idea, wish I'd thought of it)

  

 Third pass, once again, I never saw John, had no idea where he was, and  once again, my goal was to fly as slow as possible without any possibility of a  stall. Passing the end of the runway, I headed for home. I never used any  flaps, my airplane is set up to have flaps at 1) a slight reflex, 2) in  line with the ailerons, 3) slightly below the ailerons, 3) fifteen and 4) thirty  degrees. They were aligned with the ailerons, I never touched them. 

  

 To claim that in perfect conditions I might have been able to fly slower  begs the question. Anyone can do well in perfect conditions, I was simply  outflown. I think it would be accurate to say that if you can fly as well as  John, (Being able to manage slow flight while constantly stalling &  recovering reflects excellent pilot abilities, my compliments on an great  display of skill) while using full flaps and 100 HP to help hold you up,  then you probably do not need VG's, (Which enable you to fly equally  slow at partial power without stalling. Which I did, no stalls at all.)  <grin>

  

 But then there is 100 pounds difference between the airplanes, (Mine weighs  about 550) so we are back to square one. Which is that both my MKIII and  the FSII in the hangar next to me stall about 5 or 6 mph slower than they did  w/o VG's, and handle much better just above the stall. And that John in Miss  P'fer is motivated enough to outfly any VG modified Kolb around, and maybe  good enough to pull it off. 

  

 Conclusion: Rick is right, the controversy is what we live for, and this  surely will not settle it. The fun never ends...

  

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

  

  

  

 ---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Rick, Rev, Folks:

  

 We all had a great time at the Kolb Homecoming, everyone  from Homer Kolb right on down to the newest guy that was shopping and wishing  for his very first Kolb.  The weather could not have been better.   Food was great, at no cost to the participants.  The Kolb folks worked  extremely hard to insure we all had an enjoyable, fun time.  My thanks to  Bruce Chesnut for keeping Kolb alive and well for all of us to keep on flying  the best there is, Kolb aircraft.

  

 Now for my side of the story.  

  

 Richard asked me, just prior to his departure, if I still  wanted to do the VG/regular guy flyoff.  Sure!  I was ready to do slow  flight, short takeoff/landing, and climb.  We could have also done slow  speed maneuvering, but I forgot about that.  Anyhow, we agreed to do the  side by side slow flight contest.  Spent about 10 seconds getting our act  together.  Richard was already cranked when I walked over to discuss it  with him.

  

 I was down at the west end of the strip warming up my  engine when Richard taxied up with an inop radio.  Would have been much  better if we could have had comm in the air, but we didn't.  I couldn't  tell him I was not  ready for take off when he took off ahead of  me.

  

 When my engine oil temp got up to 120F, I was ready to  go.  I caught up with Richard and got in on his right wing after he started  his first slow flight run to the east.  I admit, I did not get settled down  until about midway down the strip and lost about 50 feet in the process.   Horsepower had nothing to do with keeping my mkIII flying.  I was turning  3000 rpm, using 40 degrees of flaps.  It is more difficult flying off  someone's wing, constantly looking at his aircraft, while trying to keep my  mkIII as close to stall as I can.  Once it nibbles over the edge, it is  going to lose a little altitude, change pitch attitude, and require a lot of  flying by the pilot to keep it airborne.  When I got settled down, so did  the mkIII, flying at 3000 rpm on the plus edge of the stall.

  

 Richard was actually flying lead, which demands he trust  my ability to fly off him.  As a non-military pilot, he probably did not  understand that and was concerned that I was going to prang him, or him  me.  That was not going to happen.  I would hope that Richard had  enough confidence in me to know I would not fly under him so he could hit me if  he stalled.

  

 The air was slightly turbulent which lent to better  competition between Richard and I, since we were both flying in the same  air.  Since I thought Richard had shared with us that VGs made slow flight  more comfortable, he would have felt that way and gotten his mkIII slowed down  to max.

  

 If we ever do this again, there should be two runs, with  each aircraft flying lead and wingman.

  

 Richard, you did not have to turn left to get out of my  way on the end of the second run.  I started a climb and right break at the  east end of the strip because that run was complete.  Again, had your radio  been operational, I would have called out my climb and right break.   However, I can assure you, you were never in any danger of me climbing any  direction but straight out with a hard right break.  I was flying right  wing on Richard.

  

 Richard says he never touched his flaps.  I watched  them deploy, momentarily approximately 20 degrees several times during each  run.  At the time I could not understand why he would pull them down and  immediately retract them.  I still don't.  I started my run with 40  degrees of flaps each run.  Probably should have flown with half flaps, 20  degrees, but that is history.

  

 Richard claims his VGs allow him to fly slower.   Guess if I had them, I could really fly slow.

  

 I do not know how much difference in weight there is  between Richard's and my mkIII's, but probably much more than 100  lbs.  My aircraft weighed approximately 630 lbs in 1994 with a 912.  I  can assure you airplanes do not get lighter with age.  I would guess nearer  to 150 to 200 lbs more than Richard's.  I went to a heavier 912ULS in  2000.  Richard is flying with a 582.  I don't know if he flies with a  BRS or not.  Only one way to find out, have a weigh off.   hehehe

  

 Anyhow, you all know how the weight of an  adult passenger degrades the performance of a mkIII or any light  airplane.  Please take that into consideration when you think about this  friendly competition.  As far as settling the  argument, I think I pretty much did that, between these two mkIII's, in  front of the entire Kolb Homecoming.  If nothing else, it convinced me, I  don't need to change Homer's design to make my airplane fly better.  Others  may, and that is alright with me.  

  

 All in all, I would call it a tie.  At  least Miss P'fer and I did not get whooped!  That is Alabamian  for beaten.

  

 Take care,

  

 john h

 hauck's holler, alabama

 mkIII     2724.7 hours

 912ULS  156.2 hours

  

  

   [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Nice reply, I expected nothing less.  I do find it interesting that  you still think I pulled in 20 degrees of flaps several times on each run  because I never touched them.  I wonder what you saw?

  

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Richard:

  

 I believe I saw the same thing Rick Neilsen saw, the flaps  droop momentarily.  Then on the other hand, we both may have been  hallucinating simultaneously.  

  

 The only other explanation would be the flaps outboard and  the ailerons inboard, with the right aileron drooping.  

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]    

   Nice reply, I expected nothing less.  I do find it interesting that    you still think I pulled in 20 degrees of flaps several times on each run    because I never touched them.  I wonder what you saw?

    

   Richard Pike

    

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Earl Zimmerman

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 35
Location: Elizabethtown, PA

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Richard:

  

 I believe I saw the same thing Rick Neilsen saw, the flaps droop 

 momentarily.  Then on the other hand, we both may have been 

 hallucinating simultaneously.  

  

 The only other explanation would be the flaps outboard and the ailerons 

 inboard, with the right aileron drooping.  


	


Or the right ailerons rising, thus the hallucination of the flaps being 

lowered??  ----- So It's not really about VG's but about who is a 

better liar?? Starting to sound like a fishing/hunting story!

               ~ Earl

rowedenny(at)windstream.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

John H wrote

 [quote]    

   I believe I saw the same thing Rick Neilsen saw, the    flaps droop momentarily.  Then on the other hand, we both may have been    hallucinating simultaneously.  

    

   The only other explanation would be the flaps outboard    and the ailerons inboard, with the right aileron drooping.     

    

   john h

   mkIII

    

    

    

   John,

   Rick N ( did not) see Rev Pike deploy his flaps, I    think you should reread his post. He stated that you saw this but those on the    ground did not.

   Anyway, glad you all had a good time and this gives us    one more thing to debate until next year.

    

   Denny Rowe

[b]

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

John & Richard

  

 It was a draw. No one lost. Go to your corners and  stay there.

  

 I reread my post, I still didn't see any of  Richards flaps

  

 Rick Neilsen

 [quote]   ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:36 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

> Or the right ailerons rising, thus the hallucination of the flaps being 

 	  Quote: 	
		   lowered??  ----- So It's not really about VG's but about who is a 

 better liar?? Starting to sound like a fishing/hunting story!

               ~ Earl

 
	




Earl:



Reckon I had the best seat in the house!



john h

mkIII



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Hi Denny:

  

 You are absolutely correct.  I went back to my  deleted file and reread Rick's msg.

  

 Thanks for pointing out my obvious error.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]    Rick N ( did not)    see Rev Pike deploy his flaps, I think you should reread his post. He stated    that you saw this but those on the ground did not.

    

   Denny  Rowe

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Thats amazing, not the outcome I would have expected.   From my experience with VG's, I do have to put this one down to John's ability to fly a Kolb.   



Sounds like everyone had a great time, wish I could have been there.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Lanny Fetterman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 37
Location: Catawissa Pa.

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

If the wind is right I can fly backwards! : ) Lanny Fetterman N598 LF  Do 

not archive

_________________
Lanny Fetterman Firestar II N598LF

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:11 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

From my experience with VG's, I do have to put this one down to John's 

ability to fly a Kolb.

 > Mike

Mike:



We always have a great time at the Kolb Homecoming, rain or shine, calm or 

turbulent.



 How much time did you put on your airplane before you put he VGs on?



There are people that make changes to Kolbs before they fly them, 

or.........with very little flight time in them.  I often wonder if they can 

really make a good comparison, "before and after", in that situation?  Do 

they really know the capabilities of the Kolb in the stock configuration?



I know I looked sloppy trying to slow fly.  I very seldom fly like that 

except at touch down.  That is the only time I need to get that close to the 

stall.  I think it did demonstrate the forgiving nature of Homer Kolb's 

wing.  Putting any other airplane in that situation would have probably put 

them into an immediate full stall.  The old mkIII just nibbled away and kept 

on flying.  I don't think my flying had much to do with the mkIII's 

performance Sunday.



Take care,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

I did expect that I would stir up some discussion from my post but I thought 

that it would be around the VG issue. The challenge showed me a few things. 

John is a great pilot which allowed him to fly his plane as slow as Richard 

Pike in spite of the weight differences. What was significant to me was that 

the claimed benefit of the VG just wasn't there.



The VGs must be doing something for so many people getting worked up over 

them but after this test I would suspect that people are able to fly at a 

higher angle of attack causing their air speed indicators to show slower 

speeds than actual. This test seems to say the actual speed is the same.



We talked about this a Homecoming. There are a bunch of people that fly 

without the gap seals between the wing and ( flaps and ailerons) and also 

between the wings. They truly believe their changes are for the better but 

have never experienced what it would be like if they followed the plans. I 

had one of those guys land at my strip with no flap or aileron seals on his 

582 powered MKIIIC. I watched in horror as he took off using every inch of 

my down hill 1400 ft strip and barely cleared the power lines another 1/2 

mile beyond.

If you make changes to Homer's design make sure you know what your doing. If 

you like it great but make sure you truly test it before you shoot you mouth 

off about how great it is to everyone.



Again VGs may help but it would appear it isn't slow flight.



Also we had a wonderful time at Homecoming. Flying around the airport with 

NO other place to land surely increases the pucker factor. This Michigan boy 

just aint used to not having a landing spot every 1/4 mile.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

I know I looked sloppy trying to slow fly.  I very seldom fly like that 

except at touch down.  That is the only time I need to get that close to the 

stall.  I think it did demonstrate the forgiving nature of Homer Kolb's 

wing.  Putting any other airplane in that situation would have probably put 

them into an immediate full stall.  The old mkIII just nibbled away and kept 

on flying.  I don't think my flying had much to do with the mkIII's 

performance Sunday.



Take care,



john h

mkIII 	




Just for what it's worth, 

When I first got my FS II, I did a fair bit of flying at minimum controllable airspeed just to get used to how it flies right on the edge. It really is very forgiving. When it does finally stall, there's a definite buffet, bump and then break but as long as I'm in coordinated flight, it just noses down straight ahead. 

Falling leaf stalls are on par with planes that have dihedral in the wing and the ailerons even still kind of work.....



I don't really know how slow it'll go at MCA but it's really really slow. The only other planes I've flown that went that slow right below stall were my old quicksilver and also my trike with the single surface wing (and it had loads of washout of course).



I read somewhere that Kolb intentionally designed the wing with a low aspect ratio so it could be built without washout and still be very stable. I can sure vouch for that at least in my FS II. 



I like the definite stall break, since it tells you right away you've exceeded the critical AOA and you need to correct it.



Even my titan is a little more of a handful in a falling leaf stall and it's a total sweetheart in terms of stability and handling. The FS II will just mush down with little bits of rudder and aileron as long as you want.....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

jimhefner

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

It must be that Warp drive prop that lets John fly straight and level with 40 deg flaps at 3000 rpm....     John definitely don't need any VG's.... he has a magical setup now.   



Thinking of taping some VG's on my 150 to see if I can tell any difference after flying it more than a year.... probably won't make much noticeable difference there....?? 



Fun reading.... I always enjoy a good VG debate....

_________________
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
Do Not Archive

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

At 10:49 AM 10/2/07 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



If you make changes to Homer's design make sure you know what your doing. If 

you like it great but make sure you truly test it before you shoot you mouth 

off about how great it is to everyone.



Again VGs may help but it would appear it isn't slow flight.




	


Rick,



If you have not tried VG's don't knock em.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:36 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

> If you have not tried VG's don't knock em.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Jack B. Hart FF004


	


Jack H:



No one is knocking VG's.  We simply did a comparative side by side test 

between a mkIII that had them, and one that didn't.  I might add the 

aircraft had a lot of dissimilarities, weight, configuration, etc.



The results have already been discussed.



That is all the experience I have with them, although I did fly a FSII with 

VG's for a very short flight with VG's installed.  Forgot they were on there 

until I landed and was asked if I tested them.  Personally, flying an 

unfamiliar aircraft, I could not tell any difference.  However, it was not a 

test or comparison of with or without.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

At 11:36 AM 10/2/07 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 > If you have not tried VG's don't knock em.

>

> Jack B. Hart FF004

Jack H:

No one is knocking VG's.  We simply did a comparative side by side test 

between a mkIII that had them, and one that didn't.  I might add the 

aircraft had a lot of dissimilarities, weight, configuration, etc.

The results have already been discussed.

John,

Then what you are saying is that the dissimilarities made it an invalid 

test.  The only valid test is a before and after on your own aircraft.

If you are up to it, I will supply you with a set of VG's that can be 

temporarily mounted with electricians tape.  That way you can fly and record 

your stall speed, land, tape on the VG's and the fly again to get your new 

slower stall speed.  When you find that your stall speed is reduced you can 

pass them on to the next doubter. 

How many dips are there in a Mark III wing?

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

I still can't find what the heck Sea Foam is, but I can get a grasp on this topic.  



If VG's reduce the stall speed on my little plane by 5 kts, that is huge.  I do not have the flying skill of a "hawk" so I need every advantage.  I have an envelope addressed to Harrison Design in my out mail-box for a set of them little plastic triangles.  



It is getting cold here so I  will not stir up a debate further with a pirep until next spring.



Anything to enhance slow flight is welcome to me.  It is when slow and maneuvering (usually close to the ground) when bad things tend to happen.



So if $100 keeps the landing gear and my neck straight, it is cheap insurance enhancement to fly more. 



Fly safe Kolb Buddies,



Jim

[I do have VG's on my C340 and would not fly the plane w/o them.  They make the VMC issue "almost" go away and move Blue line down 20 kts to 100.   Plus the plane can carry more w/em.  I know that this is an entirely different scenario, but those little things do dramatically change the operation of this model.]



do not archive

_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

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