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Firewall Vent Boxes

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Kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: Firewall Vent Boxes

Hi

  6nbsp;

 A couple of weeks ago there was an interesting thread about the various flavours of Pro-Seal and what should be used to seal gaps in the firewall E The gist of the discussion was that the actual compound used to seal the gaps should have the apropriate fire (temperature) rating E

  6nbsp;

 As I complete the fuselage C I keep looking at the aluminium vent boxes that mount on the engine side of the firewall E I have also just come across this link to a company that sells steel vent boxes for RV10s and other Van 7s a/c E Th link is http://www Eepm-avcorp Ecom/ssdiv Ehtml E

  6nbsp;

 Are there any opinions out there as to whether or not this is a useful upgrade to the Vans kit E It seems to me that if the firewall is steel and we are going to take great care to fireproof the gaps C shouldn 7t we do the same with the vent boxes (which represent the largest penetration of the firewall)? This seems logical to me C but I would be interested in other points of view E

  6nbsp;

 Cheers

  6nbsp;

 Les Kearney

  340643

  6nbsp;

  6nbsp;

 



---

john_rv10(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: Firewall Vent Boxes

Les,  

   

We felt the same and replaced our Al vent boxes with stainless steel.  

   

John Cleary  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of LES KEARNEY

 Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2007 3:31 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Firewall Vent Boxes  

  

     

Hi  

    

   

    

A couple of weeks ago there was an interesting thread about the various flavours of Pro-Seal and what should be used to seal gaps in the firewall. The gist of the discussion was that the actual compound used to seal the gaps should have the apropriate fire (temperature) rating.  

    

   

    

As I complete the fuselage, I keep looking at the aluminium vent boxes that mount on the engine side of the firewall. I have also just come across this link to a company that sells steel vent boxes for RV10s and other Van's a/c. Th link is http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ssdiv.html.  

    

   

    

Are there any opinions out there as to whether or not this is a useful upgrade to the Vans kit. It seems to me that if the firewall is steel and we are going to take great care to fireproof the gaps, shouldn't we do the same with the vent boxes (which represent the largest penetration of the firewall)? This seems logical to me, but I would be interested in other points of view.  

    

   

    

Cheers  

    

   

    

Les Kearney  

    

#40643  

    

   

    

   

    



 

 ---

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:02 am Post subject: Firewall Vent Boxes

I used the stainless boxes, If only for peace of mind. Kitplanes ran an article about them a few months back and after seeing how the aluminum ones melted away under high heat, read torch here, I figured the money was well spent. My philosophy has always been if it can made safer then be safer. Might come with my job though. My daily role is to eliminate hazards or control them. I figure I eliminated the fire penetrating the firewall at the heat boxes. My imagination had worked up this scenario where a major engine fire occured and flames were blowing through the firewall into the cockpit and all I kept thinking was if I had only used the stainless boxes. Silly I'm sure but I never want to second guess myself if possible.  

Rick S. 

40185

---

John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:09 am Post subject: Firewall Vent Boxes

For just those reasons, we opted to use the SS vent boxes, too.John Ackerman    40458  (mis-named finishing kit)



On Oct 2, 2007, at 1:01 AM, RV_10 wrote:

[quote]

Les,

We felt the same and replaced our Al vent boxes with stainless steel.

John Cleary



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of LES KEARNEYSent: Tuesday, 2 October 2007 3:31 PMTo: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)Subject: Firewall Vent Boxes



Hi



A couple of weeks ago there was an interesting thread about the various flavours of Pro-Seal and what should be used to seal gaps in the firewall. The gist of the discussion was that the actual compound used to seal the gaps should have the apropriate fire (temperature) rating.



 



As I complete the fuselage, I keep looking at the aluminium vent boxes that mount on the engine side of the firewall. I have also just come across this link to a company that sells steel vent boxes for RV10s and other Van's a/c. Th link is http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ssdiv.html.



 



Are there any opinions out there as to whether or not this is a useful upgrade to the Vans kit. It seems to me that if the firewall is steel and we are going to take great care to fireproof the gaps, shouldn't we do the same with the vent boxes (which represent the largest penetration of the firewall)? This seems logical to me, but I would be interested in other points of view.



Cheers



Les Kearney



#40643



[b]

rv10(at)sinkrate.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:41 am Post subject: Firewall Vent Boxes

I am wondering what the reality of survival of an engine fire is?  I have no experience with them and I cannot recall anyone talking about having one while hangar flying.  Does anyone have actual experience or firsthand experience with engine fires?  I have gone back and forth about ordering the stainless heater boxes myself but still have not.  The kitplanes article was a hell of a sales pitch yes but my gut says unless you are somewhat close to the ground and can get down in a real big hurry I think the chances of surviving the ordeal, with or without the SS heater boxes, is pretty small.  If there is a fuel or oil line feeding the fire it might be so enveloping that your f*&( anyway.  

   

Yes I would really hate to think while burning up “wow should of bought the SS heater boxes”.  

   

Not wanting to start a list war just an open conversation and the other side of the opinions (to make an informed decision).    

   

Ben Westfall  

#40579  

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of LES KEARNEY

 Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:31 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Firewall Vent Boxes  

  

     

Hi  

    

   

    

A couple of weeks ago there was an interesting thread about the various flavours of Pro-Seal and what should be used to seal gaps in the firewall. The gist of the discussion was that the actual compound used to seal the gaps should have the apropriate fire (temperature) rating.  

    

   

    

As I complete the fuselage, I keep looking at the aluminium vent boxes that mount on the engine side of the firewall. I have also just come across this link to a company that sells steel vent boxes for RV10s and other Van's a/c. Th link is http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ssdiv.html.  

    

   

    

Are there any opinions out there as to whether or not this is a useful upgrade to the Vans kit. It seems to me that if the firewall is steel and we are going to take great care to fireproof the gaps, shouldn't we do the same with the vent boxes (which represent the largest penetration of the firewall)? This seems logical to me, but I would be interested in other points of view.  

    

   

    

Cheers  

    

   

    

Les Kearney  

    

#40643  

    

   

    

   

    



 

 ---

saolesen(at)sirentel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: Firewall vent boxes

I thought about the stainless vent boxes but decided against them.   

My thought was that if it is hot enough to metal aluminum the  

fiberglass cowling will have  caught on fire as well and you are  

still screwed.   Fiberglass will burn furiously and if  the cowling  

is burning there is just that 1/4" of plexiglass between you and the  

flames.



I think prevention is a far better cure.  Replacing hoses before they  

get old and stiff, making sure all the fluid connections are tight,  

and the exhaust system is tight and secure would be far more beneficial.



Sheldon Olesen

40080 Last "10%"

Nick Leonard

Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 35
Location: Sacramento, CA

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Firewall Vent Boxes

Do engine fires ever happen, of course they do but certainly not a common occurrence.  I can think of two in particular of which I am familiar with who the pilots were.  One was recently in a Tri-pacer that never should have happened.  The pilot flew three times while trying to solve a "smoke in the cabin" problem.  The last time required him and his passenger to bail out of the plane during the roll-out.  A broken leg and some "minor" burns.



The one that has me taking extra step (explained below) happened several years ago in an RV-4.  The very experienced pilot and his passenger were on the down wind to his private strip when a fire broke out in the engine (apparent fuel leak).  In the short time it took to get the plane down he had severe burns from the flames that had come out from under the cowling and burnt a hole through the bottom of the belly by his legs.  His passenger survived but he did not.  Smoke and heat were as much of a problem as was the flames.



So, yes I did replace the heat vents for stainless ones and also the aluminum fuel line thru-wall AN fitting for a steel fitting.  I'm not sure why Van's would provide an aluminum fitting for going through the firewall.  



I also put down an insulation (available from ACS) under the floor, back to the spar, which has layers of stainless, a mat material, and then aluminum.  It is comparably heavy but besides the peace of mind, I'm expecting that it will be very effective for noise and temperature insulation, especially in the tunnel.  It is a bit of overkill from the fire-proofing point of view, but I also used it on the back of the firewall for the sound/temperature insulation factor.



Nick 40015 -finishing

_________________
Nick Leonard
RV-10 (40015) Flying

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: Firewall Vent Boxes

Seen one inflight fire ..... at Sun-N-Fun a few years back .... the resulting hard landing blew out the fire, but his feet were already burned ...... probably only 30 seconds of fire.  I think that with all the available air at 150 MPH, a small fire would become somewhat of a raging inferno in seconds, rapidly rising above the melting point of aluminum.  The SS firewall and SS heat boxes would delay your discomfort somewhat, but after that, what do you do???  Just take a look at what happens when a Nascar racer blows an engine at 200 MPH and what little oil there is in the engine ignites.  Remember that those engines are dry-sump engines and the oil is stored in a can in the back, unlike our engines that have a sump.

 

 I've pondered the problem of inflight fire, and also ditching in water ..... and neither scenarios have really good outcomes.  True, there are survivors of both, but I believe that prevention is a much better path to take than survival.

 Linn

 do not archive

 

 Ben Westfall wrote:

 [quote]         v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  <![endif]-->        st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }  <![endif]-->             

I am wondering what the reality of survival of an engine fire is?  I have no experience with them and I cannot recall anyone talking about having one while hangar flying.  Does anyone have actual experience or firsthand experience with engine fires?  I have gone back and forth about ordering the stainless heater boxes myself but still have not.  The kitplanes article was a hell of a sales pitch yes but my gut says unless you are somewhat close to the ground and can get down in a real big hurry I think the chances of surviving the ordeal, with or without the SS heater boxes, is pretty small.  If there is a fuel or oil line feeding the fire it might be so enveloping that your f*&( anyway.   

    

Yes I would really hate to think while burning up “wow should of bought the SS heater boxes”.   

    

Not wanting to start a list war just an open conversation and the other side of the opinions (to make an informed decision).     

    

Ben Westfall   

#40579   

    

          

   

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of LES KEARNEY

   Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:31 PM

   To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

   Subject: RV10-List: Firewall Vent Boxes   

   

       

Hi   

      

    

      

A couple of weeks ago there was an interesting thread about the various flavours of Pro-Seal and what should be used to seal gaps in the firewall. The gist of the discussion was that the actual compound used to seal the gaps should have the apropriate fire (temperature) rating.   

      

    

      

As I complete the fuselage, I keep looking at the aluminium vent boxes that mount on the engine side of the firewall. I have also just come across this link to a company that sells steel vent boxes for RV10s and other Van's a/c. Th link is http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ssdiv.html.   

      

    

      

Are there any opinions out there as to whether or not this is a useful upgrade to the Vans kit. It seems to me that if the firewall is steel and we are going to take great care to fireproof the gaps, shouldn't we do the same with the vent boxes (which represent the largest penetration of the firewall)? This seems logical to me, but I would be interested in other points of view.   

      

    

      

Cheers   

      

    

      

Les Kearney   

      

#40643   

      

    

      

    

      



   

 ---

Nick Leonard

Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 35
Location: Sacramento, CA

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Firewall Vent Boxes

Just a quick response to Sheldon's comment about the fiberglass burning and the windscreen...yes, that is all true but when the plane is moving, the flames will follow the air through the engine, moving down to the bottom of the firewall and out past the exhaust pipes.  I would suggest that anything that is along that path is the most critical area to worry about.  The area around the exhaust exit will have all the ingredients for creating a nice blow torch.  Gee, that is right about where your feet are, isn't it.  The only thing missing is the fuel source, such as a leaking fuel line....



Also remember that it isn't necessarily the direct flames that will kill you as much as the smoke and heat burning your lungs.  It's hard to close those vents if they have melted away.  They are within inches of where the fuel line penetrates the firewall.  That fitting should be steel, not aluminum.



I'll get off the my horse now, if somebody else wants to take it for a ride...

_________________
Nick Leonard
RV-10 (40015) Flying

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: Firewall Vent Boxes

Ditto  

   

Robin Marks  

Do Not Archive  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV_10

 Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 1:01 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Firewall Vent Boxes  

  

  

   

Les,  

   

We felt the same and replaced our Al vent boxes with stainless steel.  

   

John Cleary  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of LES KEARNEY

 Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2007 3:31 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Firewall Vent Boxes  

  

     

Hi  

    

   

    

A couple of weeks ago there was an interesting thread about the various flavours of Pro-Seal and what should be used to seal gaps in the firewall. The gist of the discussion was that the actual compound used to seal the gaps should have the apropriate fire (temperature) rating.  

    

   

    

As I complete the fuselage, I keep looking at the aluminium vent boxes that mount on the engine side of the firewall. I have also just come across this link to a company that sells steel vent boxes for RV10s and other Van's a/c. Th link is http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ssdiv.html.  

    

   

    

Are there any opinions out there as to whether or not this is a useful upgrade to the Vans kit. It seems to me that if the firewall is steel and we are going to take great care to fireproof the gaps, shouldn't we do the same with the vent boxes (which represent the largest penetration of the firewall)? This seems logical to me, but I would be interested in other points of view.  

    

   

    

Cheers  

    

   

    

Les Kearney  

    

#40643  

    

   

    

   

    



 

 ---

Kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: Firewall Vent Boxes

Hi

  6nbsp;

 I am truly impressed with the coments received E It certainly seems that the vent selection is just one of many considerations E

  6nbsp;

 I think I am going to investigate fire resistant insulation for at least the floor E As I fly in winter in -20c weather C it would be helpful for a couple of reasons E A few years ago I saw some car insulation that was a dense fiber 6nbsp;material (about 1/4 2 thick) that was foil backed E 6nbsp;I remember seeing it being tested 6nbsp;with a propane torch and it didn 7t support a flame and didn 7t melt E It was also quite light E The only problem I could see with it was that it would aborb moisture E

  6nbsp;

 I know some people in the certified world who work on the big iron E I will see if they can suggest a better material E

  6nbsp;

 Cheers

  6nbsp;

 Les

  340643

 

---

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: Firewall Vent Boxes

For this case I have a 7.5 pound fire bottle with  halon which will flow into the enine compartment. If anyone wants to see I   can send a picture.

 [quote]   ---

poneill(at)irealms.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: Firewall Vent Boxes

Do they still sell Halon fire suppression systems?  I thought that Halon was no longer being sold and banned in some (all?) states due to CFCs or something like that.  

   

Best Regards,  

Patrick #40715  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill

 Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 1:21 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Firewall Vent Boxes  

  

     

For this case I have a 7.5 pound fire bottle with halon which will flow into the enine compartment. If anyone wants to see I  can send a picture.  

  [quote]    

---

bldgrv10450(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: Firewall Vent Boxes

David 

  

 I would like to consider your fire protection mods.  Please send me some pictures. 

  

 Thanks,

  

 Paul Grimstad

 bldgrv10450(at)comcast.net (bldgrv10450(at)comcast.net)

Portland,  OR 97219



 [quote]   ---

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:45 am Post subject: Firewall Vent Boxes

My feeling is there is a reason they call it a firewall.  I went with the stainless boxes because to me, it doesn’t make sense to have aluminum acting as a fire barrier on a major part that is made to block a fuel fed fire and give you that extra precious couple minutes to possibly get to safety.  They also have ceramic gaskets for those that feel some of the tunnel heat is via conduction of the heater boxes.  

   

Nothing wrong with Van’s boxes…. unless you have a engine fire.  

   

My 0.02  

   

Michael Sausen  

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of LES KEARNEY

 Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:31 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Firewall Vent Boxes  

  

     

Hi  

    

   

    

A couple of weeks ago there was an interesting thread about the various flavours of Pro-Seal and what should be used to seal gaps in the firewall. The gist of the discussion was that the actual compound used to seal the gaps should have the apropriate fire (temperature) rating.  

    

   

    

As I complete the fuselage, I keep looking at the aluminium vent boxes that mount on the engine side of the firewall. I have also just come across this link to a company that sells steel vent boxes for RV10s and other Van's a/c. Th link is http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ssdiv.html.  

    

   

    

Are there any opinions out there as to whether or not this is a useful upgrade to the Vans kit. It seems to me that if the firewall is steel and we are going to take great care to fireproof the gaps, shouldn't we do the same with the vent boxes (which represent the largest penetration of the firewall)? This seems logical to me, but I would be interested in other points of view.  

    

   

    

Cheers  

    

   

    

Les Kearney  

    

#40643  

    

   

    

   

    



 

 ---

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