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TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: Coils and Service Bulletins |
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In a message dated 10/6/2007 3:00:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com writes:
| Quote: | "Leading GX" coils may have suffered a high failure rate, I
doubt if it was 100%. |
Hello Doug,
Judge for yourself whether or not this was a serious issue. Here is what the "recommended action" that Jab dealers in France told their customers regarding these coils in the letter they issued to their customers on September 3, 2003, well over a year before my engine was produced:
"Recommended Action
If your engine is within this serial number range or you have a glossy black coil fitted :
- Do not fly until replacement coils have been supplied by Jabiru.
- Strongly recommend that all cowled installations supply cooling air to the coils
- Fit insulating washers P/N PH4A004 under coils to prevent heat transfer "
Notice how it says "do not fly"? Notice how it says "if you have "a glossy black coil fitted?" No mention of wording stamped on the coil in this part of their letter, although the "Leading GX" notation is mentioned earlier in the letter. I take this as a sign that the bad coils were not limited to only the ones that had "Leading GX" or "Leading GC" stamped on them. Only Jabiru knows for sure and only Jabiru knows what engines they installed the faulty coils on.
Jabiru clearly thought it was serious enough to ground aircraft with these black glossy coils, but I can find no Service Bulletin that was ever issued related to these coils. In fact, I find no mention of these coils at all on Jabiru's website. According to the letter sent to Jab owners in France, which I found on a French website not at all related to Jabiru, there were 236, 2200's produced with these coils and 176, 3300's produced with them, plus mine. Mine came 220 engines after these coils were supposed to have been discontinued. Are there others? Wouldn't you like to know?
As you will see in my photo's my original coils were glossy and black, but they did not have "Leading GX" or "Leading GC" printed on them. Apparently, some of those coils, or the ones that they were replaced with, did not have that notation, but they failed just the same. If heat did in my coils, someone please explain how that happened when one was failed at first start up? I'd also like an explanination as to how the two replacement "good" coils have now worked flawlessly for 119 hours and 89 hours respectively if my engine and cooling setup is overheating the coils? Nobody seems to have an answer there.
As far as whether or not it's a big deal to have an ignition fail, consider that when it happened to me I was in an aircraft that was new to me, about 30 hours TT. The engine looses RPM and starts running rough. not rough like it's about to come apart, but rough compared to the way it runs with both ignitions functioning properly. Certainly rough enough with enough RPM drop to get your attention pronto. I was fortunate that I was over my strip when it happened. Maybe you don't think that's a big deal, but I do, especially when it could have been avoided. It's called risk managment and in order to effectively manage risk you must have knowledge. Jabiru has intentionally withheld that knowledge from their American customers for unknown reasons. I think if you find yourself in that situation, you, as I, will think it's a very big deal. It's easy to dismiss when it happens on somebody else's engine, though. What is most troubling here is that Jabiru knowingly shipped my engine with these "black glossy" coils over a year and 220 engines after they grounded aircraft in France for the very same reason. Am I the only one here that sees a problem with that?
Another thing that troubles me is why no SB? Are there more of these coils out there floating around not yet in use? What about the guy who has an engine close to the manufacture date of mine that has yet to be installed and flown and it's still sitting pickled in the box on his hangar floor? There have to be a few of those out there, don't you think? How is he going to find out that his engine coils are potentially bad and really shouldn't be flown when Jabiru hasn't issued a Service Bulletin and there is no mention of this problem on their web site? In my humble opinion there needs to be a Service Bulletin issued for this problem immediately. Jabiru needs to stop being quiet about it, own up to the problem, let everybody know, replace the coils under warranty that should be replaced, all before something really bad happens. That would be the professional way to handle this issue, don't you think?
To see my coil pictures, go to the Yahoo Jabiru Engines forum. You'll probably have to join the forum to view the pictures. Then, go to the "Photo" section and skip to the last page. Back up one page by hitting the "previous" button. My pictures are on the next to the last page, top row, second from the left. The pictures show two coils sitting side by side on my bench vise. There is a front and rear view. The one on the left is the bad coil and the one on the right is the newer TEK coil.
I'm sorry if some of you find my posts sarcastic, but I find it unfathomable that Jabiru would knowingly send out engines with known bad coils. To further compound the problem they have failed to tell anybody about it through an SB, letter, or e-mail, but rather relied on their dealers to handle it. My situation is a clear example that letting the dealers handle it didn't work. Critical information did not make it to the end user and I had to go to a non-Jabiru French website to find out what was going on. I also find it unbelievable that some folks just dismiss it as if it were coils on a lawn mower engine. Folks who dabble in aviation with attitudes like that usually wind up as statistics. Everyone who flies behind one of these engines should be equally concerned as I am unless you have verified that you do not have these bad coils installed. If you know of anybody who has an engine that was manufactuered in late 2004, but has yet to fly with it, please tell them about these coils so they don't become a statistic.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
Europa N245E
See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
[quote][b]
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Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:59 am Post subject: Coils and Service Bulletins |
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John,
A couple more observations:
1) "Recomended Action" came from DEALERS in FRANCE. Even thought their suggestion is "Do not fly", that is their opinion, and would not necessarily be mine, UNLESS I had a cowled engine with no airflow over the coils.
2) Applying my logic and the posts of a couple others, by serial number and by the thoughts of others, you didnt have the "leading GX coils"!
3) As I noted before, coils tend to fail early in their service live if they have a defect. You mention that one failed on start-up. That is to be very occasionally expected.
4) The failure in flight of a coil on a tightly cowled installation COULD have been related to overheating.
5) As I mentioned before, the rpm drop you experienced could have been reduced by switching off the offending coil.....unless that was not the sole cause of the rpm drop.
6) Lastly, I think your assumptions are incorrect as to the significance of Jabiru silence. You presume they are trying to hide something. But it could be that all problems have been corrected. You assume there are people flying with "bad coils". But logic would say if they are still flying after 4 years of service, maybe the coils were not that bad after all.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 10/6/2007 9:29:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | | Quote: | "Leading GX" coils may have suffered a high failure rate, I
doubt if it was 100%. |
Hello Doug,
Judge for yourself whether or not this was a serious issue. Here is what the "recommended action" that Jab dealers in France told their customers regarding these coils in the letter they issued to their customers on September 3, 2003, well over a year before my engine was produced:
"Recommended Action
If your engine is within this serial number range or you have a glossy black coil fitted :
- Do not fly until replacement coils have been supplied by Jabiru.
- Strongly recommend that all cowled installations supply cooling air to the coils
- Fit insulating washers P/N PH4A004 under coils to prevent heat transfer "
Notice how it says "do not fly"? Notice how it says "if you have "a glossy black coil fitted?" No mention of wording stamped on the coil in this part of their letter, although the "Leading GX" notation is mentioned earlier in the letter. I take this as a sign that the bad coils were not limited to only the ones that had "Leading GX" or "Leading GC" stamped on them. Only Jabiru knows for sure and only Jabiru knows what engines they installed the faulty coils on.
Jabiru clearly thought it was serious enough to ground aircraft with these black glossy coils, but I can find no Service Bulletin that was ever issued related to these coils. In fact, I find no mention of these coils at all on Jabiru's website. According to the letter sent to Jab owners in France, which I found on a French website not at all related to Jabiru, there were 236, 2200's produced with these coils and 176, 3300's produced with them, plus mine. Mine came 220 engines after these coils were supposed to have been discontinued. Are there others? Wouldn't you like to know?
As you will see in my photo's my original coils were glossy and black, but they did not have "Leading GX" or "Leading GC" printed on them. Apparently, some of those coils, or the ones that they were replaced with, did not have that notation, but they failed just the same. If heat did in my coils, someone please explain how that happened when one was failed at first start up? I'd also like an explanination as to how the two replacement "good" coils have now worked flawlessly for 119 hours and 89 hours respectively if my engine and cooling setup is overheating the coils? Nobody seems to have an answer there.
As far as whether or not it's a big deal to have an ignition fail, consider that when it happened to me I was in an aircraft that was new to me, about 30 hours TT. The engine looses RPM and starts running rough. not rough like it's about to come apart, but rough compared to the way it runs with both ignitions functioning properly. Certainly rough enough with enough RPM drop to get your attention pronto. I was fortunate that I was over my strip when it happened. Maybe you don't think that's a big deal, but I do, especially when it could have been avoided. It's called risk managment and in order to effectively manage risk you must have knowledge. Jabiru has intentionally withheld that knowledge from their American customers for unknown reasons. I think if you find yourself in that situation, you, as I, will think it's a very big deal. It's easy to dismiss when it happens on somebody else's engine, though. What is most troubling here is that Jabiru knowingly shipped my engine with these "black glossy" coils over a year and 220 engines after they grounded aircraft in France for the very same reason. Am I the only one here that sees a problem with that?
Another thing that troubles me is why no SB? Are there more of these coils out there floating around not yet in use? What about the guy who has an engine close to the manufacture date of mine that has yet to be installed and flown and it's still sitting pickled in the box on his hangar floor? There have to be a few of those out there, don't you think? How is he going to find out that his engine coils are potentially bad and really shouldn't be flown when Jabiru hasn't issued a Service Bulletin and there is no mention of this problem on their web site? In my humble opinion there needs to be a Service Bulletin issued for this problem immediately. Jabiru needs to stop being quiet about it, own up to the problem, let everybody know, replace the coils under warranty that should be replaced, all before something really bad happens. That would be the professional way to handle this issue, don't you think?
To see my coil pictures, go to the Yahoo Jabiru Engines forum. You'll probably have to join the forum to view the pictures. Then, go to the "Photo" section and skip to the last page. Back up one page by hitting the "previous" button. My pictures are on the next to the last page, top row, second from the left. The pictures show two coils sitting side by side on my bench vise. There is a front and rear view. The one on the left is the bad coil and the one on the right is the newer TEK coil.
I'm sorry if some of you find my posts sarcastic, but I find it unfathomable that Jabiru would knowingly send out engines with known bad coils. To further compound the problem they have failed to tell anybody about it through an SB, letter, or e-mail, but rather relied on their dealers to handle it. My situation is a clear example that letting the dealers handle it didn't work. Critical information did not make it to the end user and I had to go to a non-Jabiru French website to find out what was going on. I also find it unbelievable that some folks just dismiss it as if it were coils on a lawn mower engine. Folks who dabble in aviation with attitudes like that usually wind up as statistics. Everyone who flies behind one of these engines should be equally concerned as I am unless you have verified that you do not have these bad coils installed. If you know of anybody who has an engine that was manufactuered in late 2004, but has yet to fly with it, please tell them about these coils so they don't become a statistic.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
Europa N245E
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d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: Coils and Service Bulletins |
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Your points are all fine as far as they go. How do you defend the fact that Jabiru has not honoured or denied their warranty. They've not responded at all? If they had sent John a letter saying they denied coverage because he abused the coils, or sent him coils, it wouldn't be an issue at all. It's very simple. Send John a couple of new coils at no charge and apologize for the delay (EASIEST BY FAR) or send a letter stating why coverage is denied. At the very least consumers are owed a response, so far that hasn't happened. The life and death thing is a moot point as all Jabiru engines are not certified and it's installed in a non certified and you would have to be nuts to fly in one (paraphrasing liability statement))
[quote] ---
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Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:09 am Post subject: Coils and Service Bulletins |
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In a message dated 10/7/2007 11:04:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca writes:
| Quote: | | Your points are all fine as far as they go. How do you defend the fact that Jabiru has not honoured or denied their warranty. They've not responded at all? |
As I and others have noted, the face of Jabiru in the USA is its three dealers. In the last week or so, two of the three dealers have responded to the thread, on one two occasions. If memory serves, they have also previously responded. Andy admitted to being the cause of a delayed response because he had the coils in question and apologized. So Jabiru has responded.
One other obscured point is that there is no time rush here. The engine in question is well out of warrantee and is currently being flown A LOT!!
Doug
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d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: Coils and Service Bulletins |
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OK, as I understand things the dealer(s) have SOLD him new coils, which appear to be working out ok. It really still does not address the original problem that the warranty has not been observed. The fact that the engine is now out of warranty and is working well is not relevant.
The responses I've seen didn't really indicate that the dealer felt it was their role to adjudicate claims.In fact, It appears that one of the dealers did recieve a response from Jabiru that they would not honour the warranty, the dealer appears to disagree with their stand.
I don't know if there is another batch of "bad" coils out there, it's likely that only the factory does.
It looks to me like you are encouraging John to just accept things as they are, having bought replacements for apparently defective and warrantied parts and walk away. I likely would, but I applaud his tenacity.
--
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