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dlm46007(at)cox.net
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: instrument selection

Aren’t we glad that there are experimental EFISs out there that have TAWS or terrain warnings (Chelton, GRT, etc)? Last night a medical flight hit a ridge below the MSA in the vicinity of Alamosa CO. Although only preliminary information exists, the flight was 25 miles southwest of the airport when ATC lost contact with the flight about 0100 MST. Given that the aircraft was a King Air and was probably on an IFR flight plan it was possibly cleared for a visual approach or possibly the ILS 2 to KALS. If any KALS approach plate was examined it would indicate that the MSA for their location was about 13000 MSL. According to news reports it hit a ridge at about 11700 MSL. These kinds of accidents always make me wonder about the slow migration of experimental TAWS into certified aviation.   

Also of interest will be whether the (if ILS 2 approach) required ATC terminology was used for the approach clearance. Ever heard “cleared for the X approach, maintain y altitude until established etc.” That “maintain y altitude” was not there until in the early 1970s a TWA 727 hit a ridge outside Dulles airport in DC. The pilot had been cleared for the approach about 20 miles from the final approach fix and he descended to the FAF altitude and hit an intervening ridge. When a number of other airline pilots were interviewed they indicated that they would have done the same thing; hence the additional phraseology.  

Anyway when choosing instrumentation for your 10 (whether IFR or night VFR) , I suggest you consider terrain warning capability.       [quote][b]

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GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:02 am Post subject: instrument selection

In a message dated 10/6/2007 12:51:17 AM Central Daylight Time, dlm46007(at)cox.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Arenâ€™t we glad that there are experimental EFISs out there that have TAWS or terrain warnings (Chelton, GRT, etc)? Last night a medical flight hit a ridge below the MSA in the vicinity of Alamosa CO. 	


 One could also use a portable device such as a Garmin 496 or 396 or the Aspen as situational awareness equipment for terrain besides the Chelton, GRT, Garmin etc...



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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2878

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: instrument selection

Just make sure you integrate the audio into the system's unswitched

input so that you actually get "Terrain - Terrain" callouts in your

headset.  If you're operating IFR on a less-integrated system, it can

sometimes be a handful to monitor a multitude of systems and you

don't want to miss an important warning like Terrain.  I even feel

the Chelton is a good VFR unit if you're prone to scud running because

it not only calls out terrain, but obstructions as well, so you'd

be aware before you turned into a radio tower if you're flying around

at 800AGL in 1 mile vis clear of clouds.  (Not something I recommend,

but perfectly legal in class G airspace)



I agree with David....I read a multitude of flying magazines each month

and my favorite parts are some of the "aftermath" type articles ,but

since flying behind the Chelton I've started to wonder "why the heck

did the guy who can afford that King Air (or Bonanza, Malibu, etc...)

not put in a nice TAWS EFIS system...they'd be alive today if the did."

Yes, these systems are THAT much different that really believe that

the vast majority of CFIT accidents would never happen if the entire

IFR fleet was suddenly "upgraded" today.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In a message dated 10/6/2007 12:51:17 AM Central Daylight Time, 

 dlm46007(at)cox.net writes:

 

     Arenâ€™t we glad that there are experimental EFISs out there that have

     TAWS or terrain warnings (Chelton, GRT, etc)? Last night a medical

     flight hit a ridge below the MSA in the vicinity of Alamosa CO. 

 

 One could also use a portable device such as a Garmin 496 or 396 or the 

 Aspen as situational awareness equipment for terrain besides the 

 Chelton, GRT, Garmin etc...

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John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: instrument selection

– On soapbox– 	  Quote: 	
		  I even feel the Chelton is a good VFR unit if you're prone to scud running becauseit not only calls out terrain, but obstructions as well, so you'd be aware before you turned into a radio tower if you're flying around at 800AGL in 1 mile vis clear of clouds.  [emphasis mine, not Tim's] 

	
Perhaps better than nothing for scud running, perhaps actually worse. There are just too many towers uncharted and new ones going up all the time, even in the flattish midwest. In the intermountain west, scud running is just insane. Same for the East, I'd think. 

IMO, the best use  of terrain avoidance is to keep us WELL away from terrain and obstacles, and that means IFR or on the ground when conditions tempt us to scud run.

Been there, done that, (scud running)  and have resolved never to do so again. Ever. GOK what it would be like in a fast plane like the 10, even throttled back.

–Off soapbox –



The point you consistently make about integration, Tim, is  well taken, indeed.

Nonetheless, In the name of more complete redundancy and to achieve legality for lowest GPS approaches, our plane will have two systems: (1) The Cheltons fed by their own GPS plus an SL-30, and (2) an AFS 3500 + GI-106 fed by a 430. 

The plan is that for single pilot operation, the pilot will use the Chelton as primary. Traffic and terrain will normally be on the Cheltons; WX and engine data on the 3500. The 3500 system would be available as backup in event of failure, and as time and workload allow.

Two pilots are preferred for IFR, in which case the 3500/ 430 system belongs to the FO. Two pilot operation may be possible because this is to be a family airplane, but it remains to be seen how well we will be able to implement it. In any event, this complex system will require discipline, training, and well though out procedures, especially for IFR. 



John Ackerman  40458  beginning finishing kit 

On Oct 6, 2007, at 6:33 AM, Tim Olson wrote:

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com (Tim(at)MyRV10.com)>

Just make sure you integrate the audio into the system's unswitched

input so that you actually get "Terrain - Terrain" callouts in your

headset.  If you're operating IFR on a less-integrated system, it can

sometimes be a handful to monitor a multitude of systems and you

don't want to miss an important warning like Terrain.  I even feel

the Chelton is a good VFR unit if you're prone to scud running because

it not only calls out terrain, but obstructions as well, so you'd

be aware before you turned into a radio tower if you're flying around

at 800AGL in 1 mile vis clear of clouds.   (Not something I recommend, but perfectly legal in class G airspace)

I agree with David....I read a multitude of flying magazines each month

and my favorite parts are some of the "aftermath" type articles ,but

since flying behind the Chelton I've started to wonder "why the heck

did the guy who can afford that King Air (or Bonanza, Malibu, etc...)

not put in a nice TAWS EFIS system...they'd be alive today if the did."

Yes, these systems are THAT much different that really believe that

the vast majority of CFIT accidents would never happen if the entire

IFR fleet was suddenly "upgraded" today.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive





GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com (GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com) wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  In a message dated 10/6/2007 12:51:17 AM Central Daylight Time, dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net) writes:

    Aren’t we glad that there are experimental EFISs out there that have

    TAWS or terrain warnings (Chelton, GRT, etc)? Last night a medical

    flight hit a ridge below the MSA in the vicinity of Alamosa CO. One could also use a portable device such as a Garmin 496 or 396 or the Aspen as situational awareness equipment for terrain besides the Chelton, GRT, Garmin etc...

 	




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billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: instrument selection

During my last cross country I had time to think with thoughts similar to David McNeill. Owned an IFR certified 1977 Piper for 14 years and believed I was flying safe. From an instrument capability it was a factory equipped aircraft, but had very little instrumentation compared to my RV-10. 

   

  Now I enjoy a fuel management system, wind calculations, GPS navigation, TIS traffic, Terrain, real time weather, and robust backup capability. On seperate occasions two MD-11 pilots said my aircraft was better equipped than theirs.

   

  We enjoy this new capability at an affordable price because the FAA carved out space for an experimental movement. Very ballsey for a group of government folks. All of us need to protect the "educational" nature of the FAA's intent, and fly very, very safely. If we are not actively supporting both of these goals then we are undermining ourselves and  those that follow.

   

  Bill DeRouchey

  N939SB, flying 



John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net> wrote:

  [quote]– On soapbox–   	  Quote: 	
		  I even feel the Chelton is a good VFR unit if you're prone to scud running because  it not only calls out terrain, but obstructions as well, so you'd be aware before you turned into a radio tower if you're flying  around at 800AGL in 1 mile vis clear of clouds.  [emphasis mine, not Tim's] 

	
  Perhaps better than nothing for scud running, perhaps actually worse. There are just too many towers uncharted and new ones going up all the time, even in the flattish midwest. In the intermountain west, scud running is just insane. Same for the East, I'd think. 

  IMO, the best use  of terrain avoidance is to keep us WELL away from terrain and obstacles, and that means IFR or on the ground when conditions tempt us to scud run.

  Been  there, done that, (scud running)  and have resolved never to do so again. Ever. GOK what it would be like in a fast plane like the 10, even throttled back.

  –Off soapbox –

  

  The point you consistently make about integration, Tim, is  well taken, indeed.

  Nonetheless, In the name of more complete redundancy and to achieve legality for lowest GPS approaches, our plane will have two systems: (1) The Cheltons fed by their own GPS plus an SL-30, and (2) an AFS 3500 + GI-106 fed by a 430. 

  The plan is that for single pilot operation, the pilot will use the Chelton as primary. Traffic and terrain will normally be on the Cheltons; WX and engine data on the 3500. The 3500 system would be available as backup in event of failure, and as time and workload allow.

  Two pilots are preferred for IFR, in which case the 3500/ 430 system  belongs to the FO. Two pilot operation may be possible because this is to be a family airplane, but it remains to be seen how well we will be able to implement it. In any event, this complex system will require discipline, training, and well though out procedures, especially for IFR. 

  

  John Ackerman  40458  beginning finishing kit 

  

  

      On Oct 6, 2007, at 6:33 AM, Tim Olson wrote:

  [quote]  --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com (Tim(at)MyRV10.com)>

  



  Just make sure you integrate the  audio into the system's unswitched

  input so that you actually get "Terrain - Terrain" callouts in your

  headset.  If you're operating IFR on a less-integrated system, it can

  sometimes be a handful to monitor a multitude of systems and you

  don't want to miss an important warning like Terrain.  I even feel

  the Chelton is a good VFR unit if you're prone to scud running  because

  it not only calls out terrain, but obstructions as well, so you'd

  be aware before you turned into a radio tower if you're flying around

  at 800AGL in 1 mile vis clear of clouds.   (Not something I  recommend, but perfectly legal in class G airspace)

  



  I agree with David....I read a multitude of flying magazines each month

  and my favorite parts are some of the "aftermath" type articles ,but

  since flying behind the Chelton I've started to wonder "why the heck

  did the guy who can afford that King Air (or Bonanza, Malibu, etc...)

  not put in a nice TAWS EFIS system...they'd be alive today if the did."

  Yes, these systems are THAT much different that really believe that

  the vast majority of CFIT accidents would never happen if the entire

  IFR fleet was suddenly "upgraded" today.

  



  Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

  do not archive

  



  



  GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com (GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com) wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		    In a message dated 10/6/2007 12:51:17 AM Central Daylight Time, dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net) writes:

      Aren’t we glad that there are experimental EFISs out there that have

      TAWS or terrain warnings (Chelton, GRT, etc)? Last night a medical

      flight hit a ridge below the MSA in the vicinity of Alamosa CO. One could also use a portable  device such as a Garmin 496 or 396 or the Aspen as situational awareness equipment for terrain besides the Chelton, GRT, Garmin etc...

	
  



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GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: instrument selection

In a message dated 10/8/2007 1:06:04 PM Central Daylight Time, billderou(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  We enjoy this new capability at an affordable price because the FAA carved out space for an experimental movement. Very ballsey for a group of government folks. 	


 Bill, I'm glad you feel this way but the FAA did not carve out experimental...it was faught for by what became the EAA and its members etc over the objections of many in the FAA as we know it today...the FAA did not exist as we know it today when experimental became a reality...so please reserve you credit to the people that made this happen and not to those whom objected to your rights...

  

 P



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