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Fuel tanks and TCP
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andynfultz(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

Here's another question regarding our fiberglass fuel tanks....  If I were

to run 100LL to avoid alcohol and then added TCP to help get the lead out,

what's that combination going to do to my fiberglass tanks?  Has anybody run

TCP in their fiberglass tanks?  Thanks guys.



Andy F.

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

I have been running tcp for 8 years, no problem I know of... crap, why did

you bring that up, something else to worry about...



John Oakley

Speedster 4 long and short wings

912 ul cap



--

kitfoxpilot(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:54 am Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

John, thanks for you help on the oil change issue!  I was doing that one step wrong.  I will be doing the purge everytime I do my oil change.  By the way, I use TCP also, can't use auto gas because of the ethonal.

  

 Ray



[quote] From: john(at)leptron.com

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Fuel tanks and TCP

 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:11:33 -0600

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "john oakley" <john(at)leptron.com>

 

 I have been running tcp for 8 years, no problem I know of... crap, why did

 you bring that up, something else to worry about...

 

 John Oakley

 Speedster 4 long and short wings

 912 ul cap

 

 --

andynfultz(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

John Boy,



  If you have been doing it for 8 years with no problems, I'd say we have

nothing to worry about.  I hope to be putting fuel in my tanks before too

long and I'm looking at my options.



Andy F.



--

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:24 am Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

At 08:58 PM 10/10/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Has anybody run

TCP in their fiberglass tanks?


	


I've been using Decalin, a TCP substitute, for about 1 1/2 years with 

Kreemed tanks with no problem.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:07 am Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

I brought this question up on another list.  The consensus form people who

actually use TCP is it didn't hurt the tanks in any way.  It protects the

engine from lead plating on the main (roller) bearings.  I think you will

find you will have to decarbonise and swap plugs more often.



There was also several guys who said they used straight 100LL with no

problems other than the spark plugs need to be changed much more often.  



Finally I met one guy who said he had been running his two stroke equipment,

outboard motors, generators etc. on 100LL for years with no problems.  His

reason for doing that is he ran hunting lodges and only stocked 100LL for

use in his planes.  AVGAS was quite a bit cheaper here than MOGAS,( less

taxes), so I expect he had an ulterior motive.



FWIW Regular MOGAS here is $1.09.9/L  that works out to $4.18/U.S. Gal.CDN

or $4.25/U.S. Gal

AVGAS at the local airport is now $1.62.3/L +15% tax = $1.87/L CDN. Or

$7.09/U.S. Gal CDN or around $7.25/U.S.Gal USD.  How times have changed.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

jdmcbean(at)kitfoxaircraf
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

We sell the Decalin TCP and have been using it in several aircraft with

accumulations of well over 1500 hours with no issues...

Fly Safe !!

John & Debra McBean

208.337.5111

www.kitfoxaircraft.com

"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:03 am Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

Noel-

Did you REALLY mean to say that with TCP in 100 LL "you will find you  

will have to decarbonise and swap plugs more often?" That seems to be  

the opposite of why you use the TCP in the first place....to reduce  

lead fouling of the plugs?



I don't use the stuff myself, having been told by my Jabiru dealer  

not to, but I still wanted to have the correct info.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/420+ hrs



On Oct 11, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I brought this question up on another list.  The consensus form  

 people who

 actually use TCP is it didn't hurt the tanks in any way.  It  

 protects the

 engine from lead plating on the main (roller) bearings.  I think  

 you will

 find you will have to decarbonise and swap plugs more often.



 Noel

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

My understanding is that the TCP prevents lead from plating out on the main

bearings of the two stroke engine.  I haven't heard that it stops the

accumulation of grit on the plugs or the rings. On that point I may well be

wrong.



 100LL is not recommended for use in Rotax engines the Rotax manual gives

reduced times for plug changes and ring decarbonising for engines operated

on 100LL



I can still get ethanol free MOGAS.  



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:09 am Post subject: Re: Fuel tanks and TCP

Noel,   you are correct that Rotax does not recommend the use of AVGAS.   I go through about 1000 to 1500  gals of gas a year in My Kitfox alone and use regular pump gas. I have no idea if it has ethanol or not. Likely it does as it is law here to have it .  

I have not noticed any problems yet using what i have been using. So ethanol gas to me is no big deal. I am not an advocate of ethanol gas and I think that it is likely I will use more gas for the same power setting with ethanol gas. 



All that being said I have used AVGAS occasionally if at a seaplane base or airport that has no auto gas but really prefer to get regular auto gas as it has worked well for me .

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:53 am Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

I think the real problems start when the concentration of Ethanol are above

10%.   I also think the engine seals are not the main problem but dissolving

of the resins in the wing tanks.



Re: the use of ethanol in flight I think booze and flying shouldn't ever be

mixed.  Additional problems with the possibility of carb icing, and vapour

lock etc. etc. are enough to try to avoid the stuff.  On the other hand When

Rotax says the use of 100LL is not recommended they don't say it's ok to use

the stuff with TCP treatment.  So I agree with you that the best thing to do

is to limit the use of 100LL to times where there are no other reasonable

options.  BTW I also think it's leaving Eth/gas in the wing tanks  that does

the damage so if you can only get gas at 10%+ Eth, then at the end of the

day just flush a little good clean gas through the tanks.  If you're going

for a week or so flush at the end of the trip.



Certainly it is NOT the case where you show your tanks a bottle of Ethanol

and they will immediately start to dissolve from fright 



What really peeves me is the fact that the whole idea of adding Ethanol to

gas is smoke and mirrors.  It doesn't do anything they say it does, if you

look at the whole picture.  The lobbyists conveniently keep saying there is

less tailpipe emissions.  I note they don't say there are less overall

emissions, tailpipe and otherwise, for the same amount of power produced.

The reason they won't cross the carefully worded tailpipe statement is they

know ethanol is not efficient.  Not financially efficient and certainly not

ecologically efficient.  Those lobbyists, most of whom can't add 2+2 and

come up with 4 three times out of five are insulting me by expecting me to

be dumb enough to suck up their un-truths.

Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

On Oct 13, 2007, at 9:53 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The lobbyists conveniently keep saying there is less tailpipe 

 emissions.


	


This is new to me, Noel. My understanding on the move toward ethanol is 

entirely different (although I might be wrong). I think the main reason 

is that ethanol is produced from bio-mass and not from fossil fuel.

Carbon dioxide was first on earth. Then vegetal life turned most of it 

into oxygen by photosynthesis and kept the carbon to build its cells. 

Finally, vegetal life would burn or putrefy and release again carbon 

dioxide that, again would be taken by other living vegetal forms of 

life. There was a balance.

But some of that primordial forms of vegetal life, probably due to 

geo-physical reasons such as landslides, got buried down in the earth, 

to be only retrieved in the past century in the form of crude oil. Once 

you start burning that oil, thus creating carbon dioxide that should 

have happen millions of years ago, you upset the natural balance and 

create more CO2 than it has been produced since humans live on earth. 

That increase is the reason of the so-called greenhouse effect and 

global warming.



If you grow a tree then burn it, you keep nature in balance. If you 

burn fossil fuel, you upset the balance ... I think.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

GENTRYLL(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

I am going to have to store my Kitfox IV for awhile.  What do you  recommend I do with the tanks and remainder of the fuel  system?



See what's new at ww.aol.com?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170" target="_blank">AOL.com and

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

Can't speak specifically to Kitfoxes but I have vast experience with gas  powered machinery. I recommend for periods in excess of 12 months to drain the  fuel entirely and blow out the fuel system until it is completely dry. The  fiberglass tanks should be fine with no treatment. I would store the engine as  per Rotax reccomendations, make sure the carbs are completely dry, not just  empty. For shorter periods up to 12 months, I would consider draining and  drying, but you might get away with just stabilizing the fuel. Draining it fully  is by far the best option. If you had a steel tank fogging an oil like rust  check will help prevent rusting far better than leaving the tank full. 

  

 Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582

do not archive

 [quote]   ---

mosquito56

Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
Location: Laredo, Tx

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Fuel tanks and TCP

My understanding on the MOGAS, 100LL, ETHANOL situation is this. Please correct me if I am wrong.

  Rotax- 100ll sporadically only if needed. Low level ethanol no problem, mogas prefered.

  Tanks. Fiberglass- DO NOT USE ETHANOL melts the tanks

             Metal tanks- Mogas not a problem.

             Plastic tanks? help



From what I read this depends on engine and tanks. My s-12 has rotax with plastic tanks. Run mogas as much as possible, avoid ethanol and use 100ll sparingly.

   Please clarify my plastic tanks issue. Are my tanks plastic? They sure don't look like fiberglass. I seem to remember a topic awhile back that says the newer Rans planes had plastic tanks.

Don

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:29 am Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

If you  are going to store for a long period of time.  Drain the entire fuel system  from the tanks to the gascolator, to the carb bowls and then fog the  engine.  Close the exhaust with a damp oily (mineral oil) rag and do the  same with the carb throat.

  

  

 [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

Plastic tanks are supposed to be free of the effects ethanol has on fibre

glass tanks.  The tanks are  only one issue albeit the most obvious and

immediate one. 



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

Why  not just fog with two stroke mineral oil??  Synthetic two  stroke oil will eventually seep off the inside of the tank and leave it  unprotected.  also two stroke mineral oil will not contaminate the fuel  when you put it back into service.  BTW the two stroke oil will atomize  pretty well through a spray gun.

  

 Noel

 [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:50 am Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

Michel:



A lot of what you say is spot on.  



The lobbyists for ethanol are not willing to mention the amount of CO2 given

off when the corn is fermented.  They also refuse for some reason to include

the fossil fuels used to plant, irrigate harvest and transport the raw corn.

They also won't discuss the amount of fossil fuel required to transport the

distilled ethanol to refineries.  Ethanol cannot be sent through pipelines

as water is used to separate different grades of fuel in the same pipeline.

Ethanol forms a solution with water and there is some fear of corrosion

inside the pipeline too.



Last week there was a chemical engineer on the Discovery channel here.  The

discovery channel specializes in science programming.  This engineer said

that burning ethanol and bio diesel actually gives off a gaseous compound

that attacks the ozone layers.



I agree whole heartedly with you  that burning fossil fuels is releasing

carbon compounds back into the atmosphere that have been deported to the

depths of the earth for millions of years.  There has to be a better energy

supply.  There are too many things wrong with production of ethanol and bio

Diesel to commit to that technology.



Lithium ion batteries seem to be a possible source to power an electric

vehicle, even an electric aeroplane.  The electricity to recharge these

batteries can be made hydro electric systems, Wind power farms, photo

voltaic panels and let's not forget tidal power.  All of these things and

other technologies like terrestrial heating and insulation should be

examined and put into as wide a use as possible quickly.



If there weren't enough wrong with using ethanol as a fuel on the ground

there are added dangers to flying with it.  Fuel separation, increased

possibility for vapour lock and fuel separation are a few of the additional

dangers aviators will have to contend with.



The sooner we reduce and eventually remove our dependence on fossil fuels

and lubricants the better.  Unfortunately ethanol isn't the answer.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dwight purdy

Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: Fuel tanks and TCP

I have read that the new ethanol plants are given a waiver as they do not 

meet the maximum amount allowed by law.



               DwightPurdy

               Model ll

               Marion IN



At 10:25 PM 10/13/2007 -0230, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



The lobbyists for ethanol are not willing to mention the amount of CO2 given

off when the corn is fermented.

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >





--

10/15/2007 6:48 AM


	




--

_________________
dwight
model II

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