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Operating costs?

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1alawrence(at)earthlink.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

Hey guys, still looking into purchasing a Kitfox II.  I was just wondering if any of you can give me an idea of the operating/maintanance costs per year.  Not fuel, of course, but just a rough estimate of other costs, assuming no rebuilds, or no major damage.



Andrew

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Operating costs?

I don't believe that the number of people on this list can really give you enough of a sample size to get a useful estimate of your expected expenses. But, since you asked: The only expenses I've had related to my Kitfox in the 18 months that I've owned it are fuel, oil, spark plugs and one condition inspection. I have to pay for the condition inspection because, not being the builder, I can't do it myself.



That said, I'm fortunate in that I have a local A&P that is willing to inspect and sign off on minor work that I've done on the aiplane.  If I had not had that advantage, I would have had to take the airplane to an A&P for all the little nitpicky things that inevitably pop up with any airplane (more often I believe with all but the most exceptional experimentals). To list a few, I've had to replace the fuel lines, replace the gascolator, repack the tail wheel bearings and re-glue a de-bonded aileron trailing edge. I believe that owners of experimental airplanes mitigate cost by doing these kinds of jobs themselves. If you're not planning on building your airplane, the only way you can do this is if you find an A&P that is willing to sign off on your work. This is not trivial and if you can't find this then your ownership costs will be much higher (unless you intend to do the work anyway which I wouldn't recommend and is illegal).

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Operating costs?

Hi Andrew, even if your not the builder of the aircraft there are many maintenance things that are allowed by the FAA if you are the owner of the aircraft.

As for operating cost I did a spreadsheet on engine operation with a Rotax 582 and those costs are approx. $24.50 per hour figuring $3.00 per gal for gas. this includes overhaul at 300 hrs. I have not figured in annuals and airframe maint.

Hope this helps some.

PS I found my spreadsheet on operational cost for my use it adds another $5.00 for about #30.00 per hour.



I received an e-mail stating that on experimental aircraft the owner could do any maint they wanted with the exception of the annual condition inspection so I removed the part of the post of what the FAA allowed an owner to do. After further research I found that not to be true as the builder of an experimental aircraft one can do all  maintenance but not if you purchased a flying aircraft then you can only do what the FAA allows.

This is from FAA site read and note there are requirements that need to be met to do these things.

c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:



(1) Removal, installation, and repair of landing gear tires.



(2) Replacing elastic shock absorber cords on landing gear.



(3) Servicing landing gear shock struts by adding oil, air, or both.



(4) Servicing landing gear wheel bearings, such as cleaning and greasing.



(5) Replacing defective safety wiring or cotter keys.



(6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly other than removal of nonstructural items such as cover plates, cowlings, and fairings.



(7) Making simple fabric patches not requiring rib stitching or the removal of structural parts or control surfaces. In the case of balloons, the making of small fabric repairs to envelopes (as defined in, and in accordance with, the balloon manufacturers' instructions) not requiring load tape repair or replacement.



(8 Replenishing hydraulic fluid in the hydraulic reservoir.



(9) Refinishing decorative coating of fuselage, balloon baskets, wings tail group surfaces (excluding balanced control surfaces), fairings, cowlings, landing gear, cabin, or cockpit interior when removal or disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is not required.



(10) Applying preservative or protective material to components where no disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is involved and where such coating is not prohibited or is not contrary to good practices.



(11) Repairing upholstery and decorative furnishings of the cabin, cockpit, or balloon basket interior when the repairing does not require disassembly of any primary structure or operating system or interfere with an operating system or affect the primary structure of the aircraft.



(12) Making small simple repairs to fairings, nonstructural cover plates, cowlings, and small patches and reinforcements not changing the contour so as to interfere with proper air flow.



(13) Replacing side windows where that work does not interfere with the structure or any operating system such as controls, electrical equipment, etc.



(14) Replacing safety belts.



(15) Replacing seats or seat parts with replacement parts approved for the aircraft, not involving disassembly of any primary structure or operating system.



16 Trouble shooting and repairing broken circuits in landing light wiring circuits.



(17) Replacing bulbs, reflectors, and lenses of position and landing lights.



(1icon_cool.gif Replacing wheels and skis where no weight and balance computation is involved.



(19) Replacing any cowling not requiring removal of the propeller or disconnection of flight controls.



(20) Replacing or cleaning spark plugs and setting of spark plug gap clearance.



(21) Replacing any hose connection except hydraulic connections.



(22) Replacing prefabricated fuel lines.



(23) Cleaning or replacing fuel and oil strainers or filter elements.



(24) Replacing and servicing batteries.



(25) Cleaning of balloon burner pilot and main nozzles in accordance with the balloon manufacturer's instructions.



26 Replacement or adjustment of nonstructural standard fasteners incidental to operations.



(27) The interchange of balloon baskets and burners on envelopes when the basket or burner is designated as interchangeable in the balloon type certificate data and the baskets and burners are specifically designed for quick removal and installation.



(2icon_cool.gif The installations of anti-misfueling devices to reduce the diameter of fuel tank filler openings provided the specific device has been made a part of the aircraft type certificiate data by the aircraft manufacturer, the aircraft manufacturer has provided FAA-approved instructions for installation of the specific device, and installation does not involve the disassembly of the existing tank filler opening.



(29) Removing, checking, and replacing magnetic chip detectors.



(30) The inspection and maintenance tasks prescribed and specifically identified as preventive maintenance in a primary category aircraft type certificate or supplemental type certificate holder's approved special inspection and preventive maintenance program when accomplished on a primary category aircraft provided:



(i) They are performed by the holder of at least a private pilot certificate issued under part 61 who is the registered owner (including co-owners) of the affected aircraft and who holds a certificate of competency for the affected aircraft (1) issued by a school approved under §147.21(e) of this chapter; (2) issued by the holder of the production certificate for that primary category aircraft that has a special training program approved under §21.24 of this subchapter; or (3) issued by another entity that has a course approved by the Administrator; and



(ii) The inspections and maintenance tasks are performed in accordance with instructions contained by the special inspection and preventive maintenance program approved as part of the aircraft's type design or supplemental type design.



(31) Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)). The approved unit must be designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, and operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter.



(32) Updating self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted Air Traffic Control (ATC) navigational software data bases (excluding those of automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)) provided no disassembly of the unit is required and pertinent instructions are provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, an operational check must be performed in accordance with applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter.



(Secs. 313, 601 through 610, and 1102, Federal Aviation Act of 1958 as amended (49 U.S.C. 1354, 1421 through 1430 and 1502); (49 U.S.C. 106(g) (Revised Pub. L. 97–449, Jan. 21, 1983); and 14 CFR 11.45)



[Doc. No. 1993, 29 FR 5451, Apr. 23, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 43–14, 37 FR 14291, June 19, 1972; Amdt. 43–23, 47 FR 41086, Sept. 16, 1982; Amdt. 43–24, 49 FR 44602, Nov. 7, 1984; Amdt. 43–25, 51 FR 40703, Nov. 7, 1986; Amdt. 43–27, 52 FR 17277, May 6, 1987; Amdt. 43–34, 57 FR 41369, Sept. 9, 1992; Amdt. 43–36, 61 FR 19501, May 1, 1996]

Appendix B to Part 43—Recording of Major Repairs and Major Alterations

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

Last edited by Mnflyer on Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:51 pm; edited 2 times in total

1alawrence(at)earthlink.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

Thanks for the info, I just did not know if there was anything that I was missing.  I have a friend who is an A&P and he offered to do any work I needed on the plane, and to sing off on smaller stuff after he looked at it.  He also said he could do the condition inspections, and even motor rebuild come time.  He has a Kitfox 4 himself, so he knows a lot about them.



Thanks again,



ANdrew

--

1alawrence(at)earthlink.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

Wow!  Lots of good info there.  Thank you very much.



Andrew

--

dgolden(at)golden-consult
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

Andrew Lawrence wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Wow!  Lots of good info there.  Thank you very much.

 

 Andrew

 

 

 --

f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

A couple of smart aleck thoughts about operating expenses; if you are

concerned about the costs you shouldn't be flying. Not that you have to be

rich to fly, although it would help, but it will always cost more than you

think it should and if you have the time to calculate what they are, you

have way to much time on your hands. We fly because we can't help ourselves

not because it's cost effective.



Frank Miles

K-III w/582



--

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

If god had wanted man to fly he would have given us more money



--

jeburke94je(at)hughes.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

ANDREW, MY HUSBANDS KITFOX IV IS FOR SALE ON EBAY. THE #IS 290170325423.  IT 

IS IN VERY GOOD CONDITION AND OUR ONLY REASON FOR SELLING IT IS HE HAD A 

VERY BAD STROKE LAST YEAR AND HE IS NO LONGER ABLE TO FLY.

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

It is beginning to look like your cost of operation is boiling down to

insurance and hangar/tie down costs.  Every 300 hr 0r so your engine should

be rebuilt. I think the crank shafts are good for 600 hr.  Pout side of that

there are no other major operational costs that I can think of unless you

have to trailer your plane to and form the airfield.



Noel



Some times I have a bad habit of stating the obvious.



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

1alawrence(at)earthlink.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

Thanks for the heads up.  I think I have identified one that I am interested in, but I will deffinatly check out your husbands.  I hope for the best for your husband.



Andrew

--

1alawrence(at)earthlink.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

Thanks again for all the help guys.  I just wanted to make sure I was not getting in over my head on the little extras.  With a family I have to watch my budget. 



Andrew

--

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

Andrew, I might be completely wrong here.  It's happened to me before. 

However, I don't believe you need anyone to sign off anything you do to the 

airplane if it's Experimental.  I believe the only thing that you need an 

A/P for is to sign off the annual condition inspection.  It's not the same 

as for certified airplanes.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Deke

S5, NE Michigan



---

runwayrex(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

I'm with Deke. 

Rex in Southeast Michigan 



-- "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net> wrote:

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



Andrew, I might be completely wrong here.  It's happened to me before. 

However, I don't believe you need anyone to sign off anything you do to the 

airplane if it's Experimental.  I believe the only thing that you need an 

A/P for is to sign off the annual condition inspection.  It's not the same 

as for certified airplanes.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Deke

S5, NE Michigan



---

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

The cost of overhauling a 582 at 300 hours is about $2,700 (including a new seals, gaskets, wrist pins, pistons, crank, rotary valve shaft/gear & bearings - from LEAF). Then there's that 150 hour recommended "inspection." LEAF charges $700-800 for that. Build all this into your hourly operating costs.



Andrew Lawrence <1alawrence(at)earthlink.net> wrote:  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Andrew Lawrence <1alawrence(at)earthlink.net>



Thanks for the info, I just did not know if there was anything that I was missing. I have a friend who is an A&P and he offered to do any work I needed on the plane, and to sing off on smaller stuff after he looked at it. He also said he could do the condition inspections, and even motor rebuild come time. He has a Kitfox 4 himself, so he knows a lot about them.



Thanks  again,



ANdrew

--

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: Operating costs?

At 02:01 PM 10/17/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hey guys, still looking into purchasing a Kitfox II.  I was just 

wondering if any of you can give me an idea of the 

operating/maintanance costs per year.  Not fuel, of course, but just 

a rough estimate of other costs, assuming no rebuilds, or no major damage.


	


Kitfox IV / 582-C in San Diego



Recurring costs:



Fuel            $4.65 / g & 4.76gph

Oil             ~$1.25/pt & 0.7pph (Not sure about this price.)

Engine  $800 (at) 150 hr.

                 $2700 (at) 300 hr.

                 Repeat as necessary

Annual  ~$150/yr

Tie down        $105/mo

Insurance       $570/yr $1M liability only

Tires           $120/yr (Don't ask.)

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: Operating costs?

Looks like you're right. I checked the EAA web site and here's there answer to that question:



FAR Part 43 specifically states that the rules of that part do not apply to experimental, amateur-built aircraft. Therefore, any work (not just maintenance) on an experimental aircraft can be performed virtually by anyone regardless of credentials. (This does not apply to the condition inspection). Let common sense be your guide as to what maintenance you conduct yourself.



On the other hand, if you didn't build the airplane your self, I'd say that having an A&P look at your work is probably a good idea anyway. 





 	  Quote: 	
		  Andrew, I might be completely wrong here. It's happened to me before.However, I don't believe you need anyone to sign off anything you do to the airplane if it's Experimental. I believe the only thing that you need an A/P for is to sign off the annual condition inspection.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

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