Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel
Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

henry.voris

Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 116
Location: Pueo Field, Kula, Maui

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

I had some questions about ethanol, fuel and Mr.Funnel, so I ran some tests...



	I used two sample jars, each containing 1,000 cc of fuel (Gasoline/10% Ethanol).



***************************



	Jar #1: I would add to the fuel 0.3 cc water. The water would form a small bead at the bottom of the jar. I would shake the jar vigorously and the water would dissolve, leaving the fuel a clear liquid.



	I repeated this process 15 times... After adding a total of 4.5 cc's of water the fuel became cloudy and began to show signs of phase separation. I continued the water process twice more, (to 5.1 cc's) just to get a good phase separation going.



	After observing phase separation between the fuel and the ethanol/water, I shook the jar vigorously to mix the whole mess up again and poured it through my Mr.Funnel. I saved the residue from the trap in a separate sample jar.



	Shortly the concoction cleared and there was a big blob of ethanol/water at the bottom of the fuel jar... It had passed right through my Mr.Funnel. Bummer... The fuel from the trap looked the same as the fuel that had passed through the filter, both had water at the bottom.

***************************



	Jar #2: I added 4.0 cc (just 0.5 cc less than the amount needed to start phase separation) of water to the fuel. The water formed a bead at the bottom of the jar. I shook the jar vigorously and the water dissolved into the fuel leaving it a clear liquid. I poured it through my Mr.Funnel. I saved the residue from the trap in a separate sample jar.



	At sunset, some eight hours later the fuel was still crystal clear with no signs of phase separation, no signs of the water I had put in. The temperature during the day was between 70Âº and 75Âº.



	At 0500 the next morning the temperature was 55Âº. And the fuel had separated. There was a clear blob of ethanol/water rolling around the bottom of the fuel jar. The fuel saved from Mr.Funnel's trap had separated also. The proportions of junk to fuel in the jar and in the trap seemed to be the same, leading me to believe the water passed through the filter with little to no restrictions.

***************************



	I suspected that some of the moving parts in my Mr.Funnel were out of tune. I called a pal and even though he flies a Quicksilver, I was able to borrow his Mr.Funnel. I ran the above tests again, and I got the same results...

***************************



Conclusions:



Jar #1... Mr.Funnel will not separate the water from a "Gasoline/10% Ethanol" mix that has suffered phase separation. Both the fuel and the water/ethanol sludge pass through the filter.

 



Jar #2... 



	A. The "Gasoline/10% Ethanol" mix has the ability to absorb water in a way that is visually undetectable.



	B. The water absorbed in this fuel will pass through Mr.Funnel with the fuel.



	C. Fuel that has absorbed sufficient water, can suffer phase separation by simply lowering the temperature.

	In short, it is possible to have fuel that appears to be good while on the ground. It can be run through Mr.Funnel... But if it is used to fly... it could cool enough to suffer phase separation in the tank. The unburnable ethanol/water mess will sink to the bottom of the tank.

***************************



Reality Check:



A. In a perfect world... If you chose a gas station that moves a lot of fuel... the odds of getting fuel with water is quite low. If the refinery to pump system is tight, the ethanol should absorb any stray water as it moves through the system. Thus the delivery system should contain no water at all.... I don't live in a perfect world.



B. I will continue to use my Mr.Funnel to trap all the other junk I keep finding in my fuel...



C. I ordered a gasolator.

***************************



Aloha,

Henry

FireFly Five-Charlie-Bravo

_________________
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo

Do Not Archive

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:17 am Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Henry,

I understand Maui will soon have a source of 89 octane gas with no ethanol added.  I don't know when exactly, or where.  Call this person - I've been told he knows the details.



Rep. Angus L.K. McKelvey

E-mail Address(es):

  repmckelvey(at)Capitol.hawaii.gov

Business Information:

  Title: Representative 10th District

  Department: House of Representative

  Company: State of Hawaii

  Phone: 586-6160

  Fax: 586-6161

 

We've had a souce available in Kona now for about two months, and it is working fine in my HKS engine and in the Rotax 505 engine in my DG400 sailplane.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Henry,



About a year ago, I was thinking of doing a similar experiment but called Mr. Funnel instead. They reluctantly admitted, after many very specific questions which amounted to the questions you obviously had when doing your experiment, I got the answers you got but they didn't want to admit its limitations with ethanol laced gasoline. 



Bottom line is that if the fuel that goes through the funnel is already phase separated, then the water/ethanol mix in the separate phase will not pass through the funnel. The water that is mixed with the alcohol AND gasoline will pass through. So to make best use of the funnel it is best to let the fuel sit still for awhile before pouring. Nothing can be done, that I know of, with the water that is mixed with the ethanol in the fuel except sump before every flight, especially when the temps are cool, as you discovered.



The good news is that the water that IS mixed with the ethanol will not cause any problems at all in burning.



The bad news is that if it is cool and the water/ethanol mix separates and you drain it off, you could be lowering the octane of the remaining fuel because the water draws out of gasoline/ethanol mixture part of the ethanol that raises the octane.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

That was a very enlightening set of experiments.....certainly something very important to consider....



Thanks for you efforts, I would have made that mistake and used a paper fuel filter had you not mentioned it, and also a awareness about the cooling of water disovled in ethanol/gasoline fuel.



Someone needs to design a tank fuel pickup that rides on the surface and sucks fuel from just below the surface of the fuel to avoid all the nasty things that happen at the bottom of a tank.



How does a gascolator work?



My understanding is that it separates water and solids from the fuel?

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Ray, Will ethanol eat up my fiberglass fuel tank? Best bet here is join canard aviators at yahoo groups. These people have been dealing with this for years. Just check their archives. You'll see a variety of answers and solutions, pick the one that works for you. The one that always works is don't store fuel in your airplane's fuel tank. Drain it every time your not going to fly for XX days. Pick the number that works for you. Want to know the absolute answer. Get a piece of fiberglass made with the same resin system in your tank, a quart mason jar, and a quart of your favorite fuel. Put the fiberglass piece in the jar, fill with gas, and wait. Check it at XX day intervals. Again, pick your number. Some of the canard guys have samples that have soaked in their favorite avgas or mogas for years. 

Gascolators? No magic, just put them at the bottom of the fuel system and put in a drain at the very bottom. They do exactly what your idea of the skimming pickup does. Gives the water and gunk a place where they can collect until you drain them out. 



Rick



On 10/16/07, jb92563 <jb92563(at)yahoo.com (jb92563(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "jb92563" <jb92563(at)yahoo.com (jb92563(at)yahoo.com)>



That was a very enlightening set of experiments.....certainly something very important to consider.... 



Thanks for you efforts, I would have made that mistake and used a paper fuel filter had you not mentioned it, and also a awareness about the cooling of water disovled in ethanol/gasoline fuel.



Someone needs to design a tank fuel pickup that rides on the surface and sucks fuel from just below the surface of the fuel to avoid all the nasty things that happen at the bottom of a tank. 



How does a gascolator work?



My understanding is that it separates water and solids from the fuel?



--------

Ray

Riverside County, CA



Do Not Archive





Read this topic online here: 



[b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

All I can say is that you should have known the results of this before you started...   The MR funnel uses gravity to leave water in the bottom as fuel goes through the screen.  If the water is separated from the gasoline, it will sit in the bottom of the MR Funnel and not be passed through.  



If the fuel is suspended in the gasoline, and gravity does not bring it to the bottom of your jar for however long it sits in there, then gravity is most definitely not going to bring the water to the bottom trap of the Mr Funnel in the split second that it takes to pass through.



This is pretty obvious...  It should be apparent to anyone that has MR funnel should know what it will do, and what it will not do.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:03 pm Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

I'm not sure you're being entirely fair, Mike.  I didn't know that, it 

wasn't obvious to me, and I thought it was good information carefully 

gathered and willingly shared.                 Lar.



JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 All I can say is that you should have known the results of this before you started...   The MR funnel uses gravity to leave water in the bottom as fuel goes through the screen.  If the water is separated from the gasoline, it will sit in the bottom of the MR Funnel and not be passed through.  



 If the fuel is suspended in the gasoline, and gravity does not bring it to the bottom of your jar for however long it sits in there, then gravity is most definitely not going to bring the water to the bottom trap of the Mr Funnel in the split second that it takes to pass through.



 This is pretty obvious...  It should be apparent to anyone that has MR funnel should know what it will do, and what it will not do.



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140356#140356

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

henry.voris

Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 116
Location: Pueo Field, Kula, Maui

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Dave,



Thanks for the info on McKelvey... I'll eMail him tonight... The Reps for Maui have been no help on this matter. They respond to my eMail with a form letter saying they'll get back to me... then nothing. When I inquire again they just ignore me. Lucky we live Hawaii...



Periodically I have been checking on the availability of unadulterated fuel at Valley Isle Marine. They seem to have an inside track on the fuel situation... As you know the Hawaii Government couldn't care less if some haoli pilots fall outta the sky due to bad fuel, but they listen to the tens of thousands of guys with fishing boats parked in their driveways...



Thom,



I had heard conflicting "experts" pontificate about fuel, ethanol and Mr.Funnel, so I ran the tests to see for myself.



It is interesting to hear what the "expert" from Mr.Funnel said...



"Bottom line is that if the fuel that goes through the funnel is already phase separated, then the water/ethanol mix in the separate phase will not pass through the funnel."



I am sorry, but this simply is not true... 



I ran the test on Jar #1 to see if fuel that had already suffered phase separation would pass through the filter. Everytime I ran the test (after reading your response I went to my workshop and ran the test several more times and I got the same result everytime), everything, fuel, ethanol, and water passed through the filter. In addition the sample that was caught in Mr.Funnel's trap contained, the water/ethanol separate and the fuel in the same proportions as the mix that had passed through the filter. This means that the water/ethanol separate passed through the filter with the same ease as the fuel...



Also, I am a bit uneasy about the proposition, if you find water in your sump, to dump the water and continue. You had rightly pointed out that after the ethanol has separated the octane rating of the fuel drops to below a safe level. But even more importantly, if you are getting water in the sump, your fuel is already saturated... Any more water or a drop in the temperature will induce more phase separation and junk at the bottom of your tank.



Thanks for your input. It helps me explain the points I am trying to make.



Ray,



Thank you for your kind words...



I didn't mention paper filters, but I'm glad someone else (Rick) did...



A gascolator is basically a sump, with a drain, placed at the lowest point of your fuel line. As the fuel enters the gascolator it loses it velocity and thus it's ability to carry water and other junk along with it. The water and other junk settles to the bottom to be drained out later, while the fuel leaves through the top.  



Rick,



Right on...



Dear Mr.Pilot,



No, I didn't know the results of my tests before I ran them. In fact, I was surprised by some of the results that I got...



It may be "obvious" and "apparent" to someone with the towering intellect of a jet pilot that... "If the water is separated from the gasoline, it will sit in the bottom of the MR Funnel and not be passed through." But as I explained to Thom it simply isn't true.



Permit me to suggest that you enlighten the good people at Mr.Funnel as to your insight that gravity is the active agent of the Mr.Funnel. When I review their web site it is apparent the poor things are laboring under the misconception that their filter had something to do with it...



BigLar,



Thanks...

Aloha

Henry

FireFly Five-Charlie-Bravo

_________________
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo

Do Not Archive

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Lucky we live Hawaii..>>



Hi Henry,



caught an `extreme sports` film on TV the other night. Featured a girl going 

solo on a powered parachute in one section and someone flying a weighshift 

around Hawaii in the second part.

Lots of film of the plane flying  in beautiful locations  in the mountains , 

in places that made my toes curl at the thought of an engine out. Also miles 

of film of streaking across the sea about 3 feet up. Beautifully shot but 

not a position I would like to put myself in.



Wasn`t you by any chance?

Cheers



Pat

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:30 am Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Take Mr. Funnel and fill it with water - not a drop goes through the filter.  I just tried it.  Odd that the phase separated mixture goes through.  Plain tap water sure doesn't.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Larry & Mike,



Not only was Mike's statement not fair, IT IS NOT TRUE. Mr. Funnel does 

not separate the water from the gasoline "by gravity". The screen 

allows gasoline to pass but not water. I use a small water separating 

filter for salvaging the fuel from my sump sample jar. I pour the 

sample from the sump trough this filter and the gasoline passes through 

the filter but the water stays ON TOP of the filter. Is this water 

levitating? I don't think so.



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/gatsfueljar.php



Thom in Buffalo

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:58 am Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

HENRY,



Thanks for correcting my mis-statement. I've never used ethanol laced gasoline so I just made an educated but wrong guess about the phase separated water w/ ethanol not passing the filter. I know it works fine with water that is not contaminated with ethanol.



Learning every day.



do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

With all this trouble with ethanol and water maybe someone needs to build a filter/process that simply takes out the ethanol and the water so we don't have to deal with H20 saturated ethanol precipitating water in our tanks when the temperature drops, as is surely does the higher you fly.



The lapse rate is 3.5 Â°F/1000 ft so when you fly at 5,000 agl your temperature drop is about 17Â°F.  Fly there for a little while and see what condenses in your tank.....better have a gascolator!  



It no wonder that people are having flameouts in the air....and if they dont check right away, the water may be reabsorbed back into the fuel as it warms, leaving no evidence of the problem.



I guess I'll need a gascolator  too.



Ray

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Hi All,



For what ever its worth have you seen the size of an average gascolator? They hold maybe about a half cup of fuel.  



If you have alot of water in suspension in auto gas it would not take very long for the gascolator to fill with water and then enter the carburetor in any case.



I work as a boat mechanic and water in gas is always a problem lurking about for boats. They do offer water seperating fuel fliters that hold about a quart of fuel. The filter is about the size of a Small Block Chevy oil filter.



Mercury Marine and Bombardier (Johnson/Evinrude) offer water seperating fuel filter kits for those who are interested. As for water in suspension I dont know for sure if it will pass through the filter. Maybe some test are in order...



However they too will fill up with water and then pass it on if you get a bad load of fuel.



I dont have any answers for the group other than try and purchase your fuel from a reliable source and check it frequently.



Carlos G

AKA 

BaronVonEvil

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

In a message dated 10/17/2007 12:39:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  grageda(at)innw.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Mercury Marine and Bombardier (Johnson/Evinrude) offer water    seperating fuel filter kits for those who are interested. As for water in    suspension I dont know for sure if it will pass through the filter. Maybe some    test are in order...

	


 

 This type of filter has a paper type filter and will absorb water and  eventually will block fuel. There is a brand that has a clear blue bowl on the  bottom with a drain. This type of a filter is very large and heavy for a small  plane.   

 Steve

Firefly 007/Floats

do not  archive





See w [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Build your own. Go to the auto parts  store and get the biggest filter you can find (to hold as much water as you  think you might have) and follow these instructions.

 http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg13.html

  

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

  

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

I think I mentioned quite a while ago that I have a Racor fuel filter/water separator with a blue catch bowl on my boat, since at that time I was burning quite a bit of Baja California Mexican gas in it.  Made me nervous, tho' I've never had a problem with a car down there.  I would guess - not having it nearby - that the bowl will hold +/- ½ cup.  They make many sizes, and mine's fairly compact - about like a fairly good sized coffee cup.  Doubt if it weighs more than ½ lb., and you'd hafta have a badly contaminated supply to drown it in one flight.  If you're burning ethanol laced fuel, might not be a bad idea.                 Lar.

 

 N27SB(at)aol.com (N27SB(at)aol.com) wrote: [quote]               In a message dated 10/17/2007 12:39:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, grageda(at)innw.net (grageda(at)innw.net) writes:

    	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mercury Marine and Bombardier (Johnson/Evinrude) offer water seperating fuel filter kits for those who are interested. As for water in suspension I dont know for sure if it will pass through the filter. Maybe some test are in order...

     	
   

   This type of filter has a paper type filter and will absorb water and eventually will block fuel. There is a brand that has a clear blue bowl on the bottom with a drain. This type of a filter is very large and heavy for a small plane.    

   Steve

 Firefly 007/Floats

 do not archive

   

   

   

   

      See w       	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	
   

 [b]

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

In a message dated 10/17/2007 6:03:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  biglar(at)gogittum.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I think    I mentioned quite a while ago that I have a Racor fuel filter/water separator    with a blue catch bowl on my boat, 	


 

 Yup that's the one. Works really well but a bit large for a UL. It would be  fine on a large Kolb in a Bad fuel area. I use them on all my boats and on my  diesel tractor.   

 Steve  B

Firefly 007/Floats

do not  archive





See w [quote][b]

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

The biggest problem I can see with using a gas/ethanol mixture that has picked up a load of water (just short of the point of phase separation) is what happens in the carb bowl.  The carb tends to cool more than the fuel tanks because of the vaporization of the fuel as it is atomized and mixed with air.  If phase separation (due to cooling) takes place in the carb bowl, it's too late for a filter to do it's work.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:07 am Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

How to Tell if you have a load of water in your tank of ethanol/gas mixture:



The is a variant of the olive jar test.  Use a jar that is tall and slim, like an olive jar.  Make a mark about one third of the way up from the bottom.  Fill to the mark with water.  Add the gas/ethanol mixture from your tank to nearly fill the jar.  Shake vigorously and let the mixture sit for a while.  If the level of water drops below the line, it means the gas/ethanol mixture was not saturated with water.  The unsaturated ethanol absorbs some of the water from the jar, and becomes saturated.  This is good, and means the fuel is OK as long as you don't let any water get into it.



If there is no change (or very little change) in the level of the water in the jar, it means the gas/ethanol mixture is probably saturated (or nearly saturated) with water, and should not be used in your plane.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 1 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum