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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:10 am Post subject: Low flying

On Oct 27, 2007, at 12:25 PM, dave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   when was the last time that you did some training ?


	


Last time was last Saturday, Dave, and I would do it again this 

week-end if the weather permitted it. I do simple but rather long 

traffic patterns where I use everything I know of to make me feel 

confident with the plane. The reason of the "simple traffic pattern" is 

that I fly under radar control with transponder on since it is within  

a CTR. I fly very slow, to the edge of stall (in fact, it was Torgeir 

on this list who told me first to do that) I stall, hear the turtledeck 

pop and mush down. I do it straight and in a turn but not as much as 60 

degrees bank. I do a lot of side slips and end up with a dead stick 

landing on the mark. I do stalls on downwind at 1,000 AGL. One thing I 

also like to practice is to rock the wings while keeping the nose of 

the plane on one point on the horizon. It's good for co-ordinating 

pedals and stick.

In fact, it's all the fun of flying a Kitfox: feel the plane and be 

"with it." Flying from A to B is boring unless the scenery is very 

interesting.



I also know that you do your flying from your own landing strip, Dave. 

I have no objection to anything you say and if I gave the impression 

that I had, I am very sorry as it was not intentional. But it doesn't 

change the fact that most fatal accidents occur at low speed and low 

altitude. Even the Norwegian who built my Kitfox got killed in his 

first model 2, a few weeks after my plane's first flight, while he was 

doing a sharp turn a few feet over the end of the runway.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Low flying

Michel, 



 	  Quote: 	
		  I stall, hear the turtledeck 

pop and mush down. 	


Is that the noise that you hear  last year ?   The thud? 



Funny , with VG;s on now i have a less announced stall warning -- less buffet,  food for thought if you plan on using Vgs.,

_________________
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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:55 am Post subject: Low flying

On Oct 28, 2007, at 12:54 AM, dave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > I stall, hear the turtledeck pop and mush down.

 Is that the noise that you hear  last year ?   The thud?


	


Exactly, Dave! I needed a passenger who could look backward to assess 

my 'thud.' He confirmed that it was the turtledeck that was flexing. I 

have the original model 3 turtledeck with the hinge in the middle. As 

the plane stalls, it is the first surface to loose laminar flow and it 

results in a flexing with a characteristic sound.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: Re: Low flying

If you come across some VGs , try puting a row of Vgs across your  Lexan just ahead of the Turtle deck, unless of course you like this noise

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:28 am Post subject: Low flying

Michel-

The cost from here (USA) would be prohibitively expensive, but LP  

Aeroplastics sells, (and maybe John McBean does too), a domed  

turtledeck that resists flexing. Alas, you cannot bend the 'deck for  

storage, but on the other hand it doesn't leak water in the rain  

either. It (the 'deck) will fit into my cabin if I have to take it  

off for some reason...trailering, etc...but just barely.

  Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/420+ hrs

On Oct 28, 2007, at 5:54 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Oct 28, 2007, at 12:54 AM, dave wrote:

>> I stall, hear the turtledeck pop and mush down.

> Is that the noise that you hear  last year ?   The thud?

 Exactly, Dave! I needed a passenger who could look backward to  

 assess my 'thud.' He confirmed that it was the turtledeck that was  

 flexing. I have the original model 3 turtledeck with the hinge in  

 the middle. As the plane stalls, it is the first surface to loose  

 laminar flow and it results in a flexing with a characteristic sound.

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: Re: Low flying

Lynn,  could you bend a piece of Lexan in a brake to make it work ? 

Would only be 2 bends and lexan bends fairly  nicely. 



I have to replace my Windshield one day --maybe this winter  it has been cracked for nearly 2  years now  and got a band-aid on it an taped   

I have Lexan in stock here  1 and 3 mm  , what is the thickness of the turledeck ?

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: Low flying

If you never have to fold your turtle deck you could run a bit of solder

into the hinge.  I got two turtle decks with my plane one with and one

without the hinge.  I have yet to fir the hinged turtle deck.  It will fit

in the cabin of the plane or the back of the car on top of the gas

containers.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: Low flying

The LP Aeroplastics turtledeck material is about .100" to .125" as I  

recall, maybe thinner than that.

I can't visualize using a brake to bend Lexan...seems to me it's  

gotta be heated to bend. I'm not sure why you're asking about bending  

the Lexan....

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/420+ hrs

On Oct 28, 2007, at 6:34 AM, dave wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Lynn,  could you bend a piece of Lexan in a brake to make it work ?

 Would only be 2 bends and lexan bends fairly  nicely.



 I have to replace my Windshield one day --maybe this winter  it has  

 been cracked for nearly 2  years now  and got a band-aid on it an  

 taped  

 I have Lexan in stock here  1 and 3 mm  , what is the thickness of  

 the turledeck ?



 --------

 Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

 Flying Videos and Kitfox Info

 http://www.cfisher.com/

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: Low flying

No, Dave, I don't mind the noise of the turtledeck popping, it's my 

stall warning. 

Yes, Lynn, I could have a different turtledeck since I never need to 

fold the wings. The rain water problem is also a concern. But it is not 

in my immediate list of to-do. The strange thing is that, each time I 

come in the hangar to do some work ... I find an excuse to fly instead. 

Can you understand that? 

Noel, I don't know about solder, I run a tape along the hinge to keep 

water away, Still, if it rains, some water comes in. Mind you, my 

Kitfox is never left outside but when I spend the night at a different 

airfield, it may happen.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



Do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: Low flying

If I had to do it...and I'm glad I don't....I'd run a length of tape  

down the hinge. I can't imagine soldering that aluminum hinge, anyway.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/420+ hrs



On Oct 28, 2007, at 12:31 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 If you never have to fold your turtle deck you could run a bit of  

 solder

 into the hinge.  I got two turtle decks with my plane one with and one

 without the hinge.  I have yet to fir the hinged turtle deck.  It  

 will fit

 in the cabin of the plane or the back of the car on top of the gas

 containers.



 Noel

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Low flying

 	  Quote: 	
		  I can't visualize using a brake to bend Lexan...seems to me it's 

gotta be heated to bend. I'm not sure why you're asking about bending 

the Lexan.... 

	


Sure you can bend Lexan in a brake .  



would you like a picture or a video clip ?

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: Low flying

Tape will keep the water out but solder will fill the voids in the hinge and

make the turtle deck mechanically stronger.  Covering the hinge with a layer

or two fibreglass may do the same thing lighter.



I'm just trying to figure a way of giving your TD a bit more strength

without actually building a new one.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: Low flying

Hi Dave..you can use a break to bend Lexan.we do this at Honda engine 

plant all the time.and it works great..even with out heat.some times 

though it does break.BUT that Lexan is tuff stuff.belive me it does 

work.  Steve Shinabery N554KF  KF2



dave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

   

> I can't visualize using a brake to bend Lexan...seems to me it's 

> gotta be heated to bend. I'm not sure why you're asking about bending 

> the Lexan.... 

>

>     



 Sure you can bend Lexan in a brake .  



 would you like a picture or a video clip ?



 --------

 Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

 Flying Videos and Kitfox Info

 http://www.cfisher.com/





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142380#142380

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: Low flying

On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:42 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm just trying to figure a way of giving your TD a bit more strength

 without actually building a new one.


	


Thank you, Noel and Lynn. I might consider a new turtledeck but ... I 

don't think the reason mine makes a sound is that it is weak ... or 

does it? Nobody else is hearing that sound? It's not a big one but my 

Jabiru at idle is making almost no noise at all and, in fact, I never 

noticed it when I had the 582.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



Do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: Low flying

I guess if it was me, I'd try to temporarily stiffen the t'deck and  

see if this eliminates/changes the noise.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/420+ hrs

do not archive

On Oct 31, 2007, at 11:39 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Oct 29, 2007, at 1:42 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:

> I'm just trying to figure a way of giving your TD a bit more strength

> without actually building a new one.

 Thank you, Noel and Lynn. I might consider a new turtledeck but ...  

 I don't think the reason mine makes a sound is that it is weak ...  

 or does it? Nobody else is hearing that sound? It's not a big one  

 but my Jabiru at idle is making almost no noise at all and, in  

 fact, I never noticed it when I had the 582.

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

 Do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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