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FAR Safety question.

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Knicholas2(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: FAR Safety question.

Maybe someone here can answer this question.

 

A buddy and I fly as IFR safety pilot for each other for training.  As  

safety pilot,  can I log the flight time?  If so,  in what  capacity?  Pilot in 

command??

 

Even the local FAA gurus cannot agree on this one.

 

Thanks.

 

Kim Nicholas

RV9A

Auburn,  WA

 

Do not archive.

dan(at)rdan.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: FAR Safety question.

I asked the same question a few years ago, and got the same mixed answer.,

   

  Dan -8 rudder

   

  Snohomish WA

  



com wrote:

  



Maybe someone here can answer this question.



A buddy and I fly as IFR safety pilot for each other for training. As 

safety pilot, can I log the flight time? If so, in what capacity? Pilot in 

command??



Even the local FAA gurus cannot agree on this one.



Thanks.



Kim Nicholas

RV9A

Auburn, WA



Do not archive.

dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: FAR Safety question.

The safety pilot can log the time as 'second-in-command', for the time

that the 'pilot-in-command' is under the hood in VFR conditions. This is

because during that time you are a required crewmember.



Now keep in mind that 'second-in-command' time doesn't count toward most

things for which you log your time, like additional ratings, insurance,

.., because those require PIC time.  There is value in logging that

time to prove that there was a safety pilot on-board.  Just be careful

that both pilot's logbooks are in synch (PIC vs. SIC).



Dennis Glaeser

CFII


Maybe someone here can answer this question. A buddy and I fly as IFR

safety pilot for each other for training. As safety pilot, can I log the

flight time? If so, in what capacity? Pilot in command?? Even the local

FAA gurus cannot agree on this one. 

Thanks. 

Kim Nicholas RV9A Auburn, WA

dan(at)rvproject.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: FAR Safety question.

 	  Quote: 	
		   A buddy and I fly as IFR safety pilot for each other for training.  As

 safety pilot,  can I log the flight time?  If so,  in what  capacity? 

 Pilot in

 command??


	


It's my understanding that *both* pilots can log PIC time when one is under 

the hood (simulated instrument conditions, not actual), as long as the 

safety pilot is rated for the given category & class, and type if a type 

rating is required.  Any private pilot can act as safety pilot in any 

airplane regardless of type, but he can only log it as PIC if appropriately 

rated and endorsed.



In other words, a private pilot single engine land can log PIC time when he 

flies safety pilot in your RV-6A (just an example), but if he flies safety 

pilot in a multi, he cannot log PIC.



Here's a decent write-up that may help or confuse:

http://inwg.cap.gov/lafcomp/senior/staneval/picsafetypilot.html



I used to think it was a big deal, but unless you're legitimately "saving 

up" PIC time for some specific reason, it doesn't really matter in the grand 

scheme.



do not archive

)_( Dan

RV-7 N714D

http://www.rvproject.com

dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: FAR Safety question.

Please note that both pilots can NOT log PIC for the same time! (legally

anyway   As noted in the link that Dan provided, the pilots can agree

on who is PIC during what times, regardless of who is 'manipulating the

controls'.



The safety pilot MUST be appropriately rated for the aircraft being

flown.  For instance, you can not have a student pilot act as a safety

pilot, or a pilot rated only for single-engine can't be a safety pilot

on a multi-engine aircraft.



Dennis Glaeser



---------------------------------------------------




It's my understanding that *both* pilots can log PIC time when one is

under 

the hood (simulated instrument conditions, not actual), as long as the 

safety pilot is rated for the given category & class, and type if a type



rating is required.  Any private pilot can act as safety pilot in any 

airplane regardless of type, but he can only log it as PIC if

appropriately 

rated and endorsed.

---snip--------------------

flyrv6(at)bryantechnology
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:16 am Post subject: FAR Safety question.

Dennis,  It was a little qirky the way it was written, but it did say you

could both log the time if the safety pilot was PIC and properly rated.  The

legality of PIC was the issue.  If the safety pilot is PIC then he is

responsible if there was a violation, or accident, etc.



I read it twice, and thought as you did at first.

Tim 

 

----

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: FAR Safety question.

Hmmm.  I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination (nor do I play 

one on TV  ) but I believe that in order to log PIC time, you must be 

the sole manipulator of the controls and have a valid pilot's license. 

 As for logging the flight time, if you're not a licensed instructor I 

guess you're just like a passenger keeping an eye out for bandits.  I 

don't know why an FAA 'guru' can't answer that question though.  Kinda 

perpetuates the general opinion of the FAA, doesn't it???  Do not 

archive in case the FAA's reading this!!! 



Just my thoughts.  YMMV.

Knicholas2(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Maybe someone here can answer this question.

 

A buddy and I fly as IFR safety pilot for each other for training.  As  

safety pilot,  can I log the flight time?  If so,  in what  capacity?  Pilot in 

command??

 

Even the local FAA gurus cannot agree on this one.

 

Thanks.

 

Kim Nicholas

RV9A

Auburn,  WA

 

Do not archive.

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1704
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:07 am Post subject: FAR Safety question.

Nope. Go to AOPA website members section under FAQ. Logging time as PIC 

and being PIC are two unrelated items.



linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hmmm.  I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination (nor do I play 

 one on TV  ) but I believe that in order to log PIC time, you must be 

 the sole manipulator of the controls and have a valid pilot's license. 

  As for logging the flight time, if you're not a licensed instructor I 

 guess you're just like a passenger keeping an eye out for bandits.  I 

 don't know why an FAA 'guru' can't answer that question though.  Kinda 

 perpetuates the general opinion of the FAA, doesn't it???  Do not 

 archive in case the FAA's reading this!!! 

 

 Just my thoughts.  YMMV.

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1704
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:07 am Post subject: FAR Safety question.

Nope, not true. If safety pilot IS PIC, and pilot under the hood is sole 

manipulator of the controls, both can log PIC time.



Glaeser, Dennis A wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Please note that both pilots can NOT log PIC for the same time! (legally

 anyway   As noted in the link that Dan provided, the pilots can agree

 on who is PIC during what times, regardless of who is 'manipulating the

 controls'.

 

 The safety pilot MUST be appropriately rated for the aircraft being

 flown.  For instance, you can not have a student pilot act as a safety

 pilot, or a pilot rated only for single-engine can't be a safety pilot

 on a multi-engine aircraft.

 

 Dennis Glaeser

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: FAR Safety question.

Regarding Safety Pilots, I've always taught that only one pilot can log

PIC at a time.  The other one can log SIC when the PIC is under the

hood.



The article indicates that 'if the pilots agree' that the safety pilot

is PIC, then that pilot can log PIC, and that the other pilot, who is

manipulating the controls, can also log PIC (since that is the

definition in the FARs).  I think that is stretching the rule to justify

double logging PIC time.  In case of a violation or accident, that

'agreement' would be meaningless IMHO (I'm not a lawyer or with the

FAA).



My first question when someone asks me about this is: why is it so

important to log PIC time when you are a safety pilot?  Are you trying

to qualify for a rating, meet some insurance requirement, get a flying

job, or what?  Back when you had to have 200 hrs to get an instrument

rating, that was a motivation to get as much PIC time quickly as

possible. Now it that not really an issue.



	Dennis



---------------------

Dennis, 

It was a little qirky the way it was written, but it did say you could

both log the time if the safety pilot was PIC and properly rated. The

legality of PIC was the issue. If the safety pilot is PIC then he is

responsible if there was a violation, or accident, etc. I read it twice,

and thought as you did at first. 

Tim 

---------------------

dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject: FAR Safety question.

The AOPA FAQ reads very similar to the article Dan noted.  Looks like

I'm out-voted, as long as the safety pilot agrees to be responsible for

the flight (one of the ways to be PIC).  If you want/need the PIC time -

go for it.  The reality is that there is no way to dispute it anyway.

It's important to know the correct way to explain things - with

references like the AOPA - if a situation ever comes up that requires

it. Good discussion!



Dennis


Nope. Go to AOPA website members section under FAQ. Logging time as PIC

and being PIC are two unrelated items.

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: FAR Safety question.

At first blush, the idea of both the 'under hood' pilot and 'safety'

pilot claiming PIC time would seem to be double-dipping--but then think

about a similar situation--your flight training.  



You're flying the plane but you can bet the CFI is logging PIC time.  It

may be double-dipping but it's legal and logical.



Chuck Jensen

Do Not Archive



--

truflite(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject: FAR Safety question.

I had the same situation.  I am a VFR pilot and my

friend needed some hood time.  Wondering if I could

log this time, I went searching for an answer.



I asked the same question of the Avweb people and they

came up with a FAR reg that states that the safety

pilot is allowed to log that time as pilot in command.

 The safety pilot is responsible for the safe

operation of the aircraft while the IFR rated pilot is

"under the  hood".  Understand this, only the time

when the IFR pilot is under the hood are you legally

allowed to log.



Dave

--- Knicholas2(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Maybe someone here can answer this question.

  

 A buddy and I fly as IFR safety pilot for each other

 for training.  As  

 safety pilot,  can I log the flight time?  If so, 

 in what  capacity?  Pilot in 

 command??

  

 Even the local FAA gurus cannot agree on this one.

  

 Thanks.

  

 Kim Nicholas

 RV9A

 Auburn,  WA

  

 Do not archive.

 

 

 

 



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low pass

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Houston

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: Re: FAR Safety question.

Both pilots can indeed log the time PIC (only when under the hood) if the safety pilot agrees to be the acting pilot in command.  Done it many, many times building those multi PIC hours back when I was pursuing the flying career dream.  Some may scoff at the concept, but it's very legal and no different than taking advantage of an allowable tax deduction.



Bryan Jones - MEI, CFII

Houston, Texas

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