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Knicholas2(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: FAR Safety question. |
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Maybe someone here can answer this question.
A buddy and I fly as IFR safety pilot for each other for training. As
safety pilot, can I log the flight time? If so, in what capacity? Pilot in
command??
Even the local FAA gurus cannot agree on this one.
Thanks.
Kim Nicholas
RV9A
Auburn, WA
Do not archive.
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dan(at)rdan.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: FAR Safety question. |
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I asked the same question a few years ago, and got the same mixed answer.,
Dan -8 rudder
Snohomish WA
com wrote:
Maybe someone here can answer this question.
A buddy and I fly as IFR safety pilot for each other for training. As
safety pilot, can I log the flight time? If so, in what capacity? Pilot in
command??
Even the local FAA gurus cannot agree on this one.
Thanks.
Kim Nicholas
RV9A
Auburn, WA
Do not archive.
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dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: FAR Safety question. |
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The safety pilot can log the time as 'second-in-command', for the time
that the 'pilot-in-command' is under the hood in VFR conditions. This is
because during that time you are a required crewmember.
Now keep in mind that 'second-in-command' time doesn't count toward most
things for which you log your time, like additional ratings, insurance,
.., because those require PIC time. There is value in logging that
time to prove that there was a safety pilot on-board. Just be careful
that both pilot's logbooks are in synch (PIC vs. SIC).
Dennis Glaeser
CFII
Maybe someone here can answer this question. A buddy and I fly as IFR
safety pilot for each other for training. As safety pilot, can I log the
flight time? If so, in what capacity? Pilot in command?? Even the local
FAA gurus cannot agree on this one.
Thanks.
Kim Nicholas RV9A Auburn, WA
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dan(at)rvproject.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: FAR Safety question. |
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Quote: | A buddy and I fly as IFR safety pilot for each other for training. As
safety pilot, can I log the flight time? If so, in what capacity?
Pilot in
command??
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It's my understanding that *both* pilots can log PIC time when one is under
the hood (simulated instrument conditions, not actual), as long as the
safety pilot is rated for the given category & class, and type if a type
rating is required. Any private pilot can act as safety pilot in any
airplane regardless of type, but he can only log it as PIC if appropriately
rated and endorsed.
In other words, a private pilot single engine land can log PIC time when he
flies safety pilot in your RV-6A (just an example), but if he flies safety
pilot in a multi, he cannot log PIC.
Here's a decent write-up that may help or confuse:
http://inwg.cap.gov/lafcomp/senior/staneval/picsafetypilot.html
I used to think it was a big deal, but unless you're legitimately "saving
up" PIC time for some specific reason, it doesn't really matter in the grand
scheme.
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
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dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: FAR Safety question. |
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Please note that both pilots can NOT log PIC for the same time! (legally
anyway As noted in the link that Dan provided, the pilots can agree
on who is PIC during what times, regardless of who is 'manipulating the
controls'.
The safety pilot MUST be appropriately rated for the aircraft being
flown. For instance, you can not have a student pilot act as a safety
pilot, or a pilot rated only for single-engine can't be a safety pilot
on a multi-engine aircraft.
Dennis Glaeser
---------------------------------------------------
It's my understanding that *both* pilots can log PIC time when one is
under
the hood (simulated instrument conditions, not actual), as long as the
safety pilot is rated for the given category & class, and type if a type
rating is required. Any private pilot can act as safety pilot in any
airplane regardless of type, but he can only log it as PIC if
appropriately
rated and endorsed.
---snip--------------------
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flyrv6(at)bryantechnology Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:16 am Post subject: FAR Safety question. |
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Dennis, It was a little qirky the way it was written, but it did say you
could both log the time if the safety pilot was PIC and properly rated. The
legality of PIC was the issue. If the safety pilot is PIC then he is
responsible if there was a violation, or accident, etc.
I read it twice, and thought as you did at first.
Tim
----
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth. Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: FAR Safety question. |
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Hmmm. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination (nor do I play
one on TV ) but I believe that in order to log PIC time, you must be
the sole manipulator of the controls and have a valid pilot's license.
As for logging the flight time, if you're not a licensed instructor I
guess you're just like a passenger keeping an eye out for bandits. I
don't know why an FAA 'guru' can't answer that question though. Kinda
perpetuates the general opinion of the FAA, doesn't it??? Do not
archive in case the FAA's reading this!!!
Just my thoughts. YMMV.
Knicholas2(at)aol.com wrote:
Quote: |
Maybe someone here can answer this question.
A buddy and I fly as IFR safety pilot for each other for training. As
safety pilot, can I log the flight time? If so, in what capacity? Pilot in
command??
Even the local FAA gurus cannot agree on this one.
Thanks.
Kim Nicholas
RV9A
Auburn, WA
Do not archive.
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1704 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:07 am Post subject: FAR Safety question. |
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Nope. Go to AOPA website members section under FAQ. Logging time as PIC
and being PIC are two unrelated items.
linn Walters wrote:
Quote: |
Hmmm. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination (nor do I play
one on TV ) but I believe that in order to log PIC time, you must be
the sole manipulator of the controls and have a valid pilot's license.
As for logging the flight time, if you're not a licensed instructor I
guess you're just like a passenger keeping an eye out for bandits. I
don't know why an FAA 'guru' can't answer that question though. Kinda
perpetuates the general opinion of the FAA, doesn't it??? Do not
archive in case the FAA's reading this!!!
Just my thoughts. YMMV.
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_________________ Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1704 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:07 am Post subject: FAR Safety question. |
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Nope, not true. If safety pilot IS PIC, and pilot under the hood is sole
manipulator of the controls, both can log PIC time.
Glaeser, Dennis A wrote:
Quote: |
Please note that both pilots can NOT log PIC for the same time! (legally
anyway As noted in the link that Dan provided, the pilots can agree
on who is PIC during what times, regardless of who is 'manipulating the
controls'.
The safety pilot MUST be appropriately rated for the aircraft being
flown. For instance, you can not have a student pilot act as a safety
pilot, or a pilot rated only for single-engine can't be a safety pilot
on a multi-engine aircraft.
Dennis Glaeser
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_________________ Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: FAR Safety question. |
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Regarding Safety Pilots, I've always taught that only one pilot can log
PIC at a time. The other one can log SIC when the PIC is under the
hood.
The article indicates that 'if the pilots agree' that the safety pilot
is PIC, then that pilot can log PIC, and that the other pilot, who is
manipulating the controls, can also log PIC (since that is the
definition in the FARs). I think that is stretching the rule to justify
double logging PIC time. In case of a violation or accident, that
'agreement' would be meaningless IMHO (I'm not a lawyer or with the
FAA).
My first question when someone asks me about this is: why is it so
important to log PIC time when you are a safety pilot? Are you trying
to qualify for a rating, meet some insurance requirement, get a flying
job, or what? Back when you had to have 200 hrs to get an instrument
rating, that was a motivation to get as much PIC time quickly as
possible. Now it that not really an issue.
Dennis
---------------------
Dennis,
It was a little qirky the way it was written, but it did say you could
both log the time if the safety pilot was PIC and properly rated. The
legality of PIC was the issue. If the safety pilot is PIC then he is
responsible if there was a violation, or accident, etc. I read it twice,
and thought as you did at first.
Tim
---------------------
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dennis.glaeser(at)eds.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject: FAR Safety question. |
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The AOPA FAQ reads very similar to the article Dan noted. Looks like
I'm out-voted, as long as the safety pilot agrees to be responsible for
the flight (one of the ways to be PIC). If you want/need the PIC time -
go for it. The reality is that there is no way to dispute it anyway.
It's important to know the correct way to explain things - with
references like the AOPA - if a situation ever comes up that requires
it. Good discussion!
Dennis
Nope. Go to AOPA website members section under FAQ. Logging time as PIC
and being PIC are two unrelated items.
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cjensen(at)dts9000.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: FAR Safety question. |
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At first blush, the idea of both the 'under hood' pilot and 'safety'
pilot claiming PIC time would seem to be double-dipping--but then think
about a similar situation--your flight training.
You're flying the plane but you can bet the CFI is logging PIC time. It
may be double-dipping but it's legal and logical.
Chuck Jensen
Do Not Archive
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truflite(at)yahoo.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject: FAR Safety question. |
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I had the same situation. I am a VFR pilot and my
friend needed some hood time. Wondering if I could
log this time, I went searching for an answer.
I asked the same question of the Avweb people and they
came up with a FAR reg that states that the safety
pilot is allowed to log that time as pilot in command.
The safety pilot is responsible for the safe
operation of the aircraft while the IFR rated pilot is
"under the hood". Understand this, only the time
when the IFR pilot is under the hood are you legally
allowed to log.
Dave
--- Knicholas2(at)aol.com wrote:
Quote: |
Maybe someone here can answer this question.
A buddy and I fly as IFR safety pilot for each other
for training. As
safety pilot, can I log the flight time? If so,
in what capacity? Pilot in
command??
Even the local FAA gurus cannot agree on this one.
Thanks.
Kim Nicholas
RV9A
Auburn, WA
Do not archive.
browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,
Admin.
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low pass
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 32 Location: Houston
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: Re: FAR Safety question. |
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Both pilots can indeed log the time PIC (only when under the hood) if the safety pilot agrees to be the acting pilot in command. Done it many, many times building those multi PIC hours back when I was pursuing the flying career dream. Some may scoff at the concept, but it's very legal and no different than taking advantage of an allowable tax deduction.
Bryan Jones - MEI, CFII
Houston, Texas
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