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Trim troubles

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speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: Trim troubles

I have hooked up my MAC trim system for the first time.  I have a hat switch

trim control on the stick and switches on the subpanel that duplicate the

hat switch.  I am using the new relays from MAC.



The problem is that while the switches on the panel work, the hat switch

does not work.  It activates the appropriate relay when it should but no

power goes to the servo.  I am stumped as to where to look for the problem

as obviously I have the relay to servo correct, and the panel switch to

relay correct.  Since the hat switch activates the relay, where is the

problem?



Any suggestions.



Gary

40274

bhughes(at)qnsi.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: Trim troubles

Gary,



Make sue the two diodes are in the proper location and orientation. Both

the rocker switch and hat switch should provide a ground to the relay

deck. I am assuming you are using Ray Allen's products and the RS2

Rocker \ RAC grip.



Bobby

40116 



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: Trim troubles

How are the stick switches wired?  One wire from the pair usually

goes to ground, and the other goes to the relay, so you're

grounding the input to activate it.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

gary wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I have hooked up my MAC trim system for the first time.  I have a hat switch

 trim control on the stick and switches on the subpanel that duplicate the

 hat switch.  I am using the new relays from MAC.

 

 The problem is that while the switches on the panel work, the hat switch

 does not work.  It activates the appropriate relay when it should but no

 power goes to the servo.  I am stumped as to where to look for the problem

 as obviously I have the relay to servo correct, and the panel switch to

 relay correct.  Since the hat switch activates the relay, where is the

 problem?

 

 Any suggestions.

 

 Gary

 40274

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

I think I have it wired that way, the relay clicks when I activate the stick

but the servo won't move unless I press the panel switch.  Both switches

activate the relay though.



Gary

40274



--

rcnewman(at)mycingular.bl
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

One possibility with a system envolving relays is that when you are pressing a stick button, actuallly two relays are activating and this would apply effectively no voltage to the servo.  You may want to listen to all the relays with a straw to hear which ones are actually be activated. 



-Bob Newman

Tcw Technologies

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

dmasys(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

 	  Quote: 	
		   Time: 01:47:17 PM PST US

 From: "gary" <speckter(at)comcast.net>

 Subject: RE: Trim troubles

 I think I have it wired that way, the relay clicks when I activate the stick

 but the servo won't move unless I press the panel switch.  Both switches

 activate the relay though.

 Gary

 40274

If those panel mounted switches are the rocker switches supplied by Ray Allen, the problem is that if you look closely at the schematic for those switches, they ground both sides of the SPDT circuit when the rocker is in the neutral position.  This is supposed to reduce the amount of trim motor run-on, but it perfectly skunks the possibility of having a separate switch in parallel (ie., the one on the coolie hat) to work the flaps or trim circuit.

This little "feature" of the rocker switches caused me to have to re-cut the right side panel to get rid of the rectangular hole for the Ray Allen switch, and put in a standard SPDT spring loaded switch for the panel mount location.

-Dan Masys

RV-10 N104LD flying - 75 hrs.

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

I don't think it negates all possibilities....with both the relay

system, and the Safety-Trim system, I had a panel mounted Elevator

switch (Ray Allen Type), and 2 stick switches, and all 3 switches

worked fine.  You just have to piece together the proper diagrams

from Ray Allen and then it all works together.  I know someone

mentioned diodes already, and I think I had a pair in my install

too, but I haven't taken the time to re-think how I put that all

together....but I do know it works.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

Dan Masys wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> Time: 01:47:17 PM PST US

> From: "gary" <speckter(at)comcast.net>

> Subject: RE: Trim troubles

> I think I have it wired that way, the relay clicks when I activate the stick

> but the servo won't move unless I press the panel switch.  Both switches

> activate the relay though.

>

> Gary

> 40274

 If those panel mounted switches are the rocker switches supplied by Ray Allen, the problem is that if you look closely at the schematic for those switches, they ground both sides of the SPDT circuit when the rocker is in the neutral position.  This is supposed to reduce the amount of trim motor run-on, but it perfectly skunks the possibility of having a separate switch in parallel (ie., the one on the coolie hat) to work the flaps or trim circuit.

 This little "feature" of the rocker switches caused me to have to re-cut the right side panel to get rid of the rectangular hole for the Ray Allen switch, and put in a standard SPDT spring loaded switch for the panel mount location.

 -Dan Masys

 RV-10 N104LD flying - 75 hrs.

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: Trim troubles

I solved the problem.  The diodes that are installed to isolate the switches

on the panel from the relay were the issue.  I also hooked the stick

switches up to the diodes but it won't work that way, switched it around and

all is well.  Ray Allen is not sure why it won't work that way but they said

to try switching it and see if it works.

Gary 40274

Installing windshield



--

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: Trim troubles

I just happen to be going over my pitch trim wiring and came to the same conclusion.  That is; if you will be installing a relay deck, replacing the provided DPDT rocker switch with a momentary SPDT switch, simplifies the wiring greatly.  I built my own relay deck and incorporated a simple two-speed (Normal/Cruise) switch.  The switch places or removes a resister in the power path to the servo motor.



http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/90Electrical/RV10PitchTrim.pdf



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 



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acs(at)acspropeller.com.a
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

William, doesn't the DPDT switch takes the place of the need to have two 

SPDT switches on the panel, i.e one way for forward trim and the other for 

aft trim?

The SPDT switches on the pilot and co-pilot sticks each look after forward 

trim or aft trim individually. I would have thought the intention would be 

to have all three switches operating exactly the same, the only difference 

being a fore and aft option in one convenient switch on the panel.

John 40315



---

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

The caveat was IF YOU WILL BE USING A RELAY DECK.  Without the relay deck, yes you would need two SPDT switches.  The momentary switches in the pilot stick are SPDT.  Replacing the DPDT (center off) panel rocker switch with a momentary SPDT makes all switches the same.  Your panel switch will just be another switch like the ones in the stick.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 



------

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

Why are there flap switches on the stick AND the panel???

 Linn

 do not archive

 

 

 William Curtis wrote:

 [quote]   [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> (wcurtis(at)nerv10.com)  The caveat was IF YOU WILL BE USING A RELAY DECK.  Without the relay deck, yes you would need two SPDT switches.  The momentary switches in the pilot stick are SPDT.  Replacing the DPDT (center off) panel rocker switch with a momentary SPDT makes all switches the same.  Your panel switch will just be another switch like the ones in the stick.  William http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/   ------

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

Yes, but with a relay deck you can use the original panel switch, and

2 regular sticks switches like the infinity grips use, and use

them all together with no problem. Same with Bob's trim system.



One question William...your pilot/co-pilot switch....when you flip

yours, you disable the pilot if it's on co-pilot.  Don't you want

the pilot to always have control, and just have the co-pilot only

be dis-connectable?



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

William Curtis wrote:

[quote] 

 <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>

 

 The caveat was IF YOU WILL BE USING A RELAY DECK.  Without the relay

 deck, yes you would need two SPDT switches.  The momentary switches

 in the pilot stick are SPDT.  Replacing the DPDT (center off) panel

 rocker switch with a momentary SPDT makes all switches the same.

 Your panel switch will just be another switch like the ones in the

 stick.

 

 William http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

 

 ------

sam(at)fr8dog.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

Do you remember the value of the resistor? I would like to slow my trim in cruise as well, this looks like an inexpensive solution.

 Sam

 

 William Curtis wrote: [quote]   [quote]I just happen to be going over my pitch trim wiring and came to the same conclusion.  That is; if you will be installing a relay deck, replacing the provided DPDT rocker switch with a momentary SPDT switch, simplifies the wiring greatly.  I built my own relay deck and incorporated a simple two-speed (Normal/Cruise) switch.  The switch places or removes a resister in the power path to the servo motor.  http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/90Electrical/RV10PitchTrim.pdf  William http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/   ------

rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

Fellow listers,



    Thru this recent thread regarding a trim switch/relay problem I've 

offered some troubleshooting ideas to help solve the current issue at hand 

and have not brought up any of my commercial interests regarding 

Safety-Trim.   Now that it seems to be sorted out and the root cause was 

determined to be an issue with diodes and the Ray Allen trim switch I'm 

inclined to chime in.     I realize different folks want different levels of 

complexity in the aircraft and I fully support that.   As a fellow RV-10 

builder and a Glastar builder I have enjoy making the decisions how my 

airplane will operate and how complex or not it would be.

    I'd just like to make you all aware that one of the benifits of the 

Safety-Trim electronic servo controller is that the switch wiring required 

to accomplish multiples points of control is greatly simplified over that 

traditionally done with a series of relay decks.      All of the switches 

used in a Safety-Trim system only need to be SPST for each  function,  each 

is just a simple closure to ground.    Safety-Trim handles any comflicts 

between the pilot and the co-pilot and/or a panel mounted switch asking for 

different directions.       This benefit is in addition to that of the 

run-away prevention technology and 2 speed preset functions also found in 

our controller.



For all the details and to see our instruction manuals,   please visit 

www.tcwtech.com



Thank you,



Bob Newman

rnewman(at)tcwtech.com



RV-10 #40176

N541RV

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

Flap switches?  Where do see a mention of flap switches?



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 



------

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

Right now it is variable.  Until I'm flying I won't have a specific value for the resistor.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 



------

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

Tonight I went about the task of hooking up my rudder trim.  Last

week when I finished the Safety-Trim I didn't know 100% that I'd

be adding rudder trim.  I just plunged in after I finished

that project.  So tonight I finalized the wiring and tomorrow the

entire job will be done.



To do the rudder trim, I decided to run that trim servo through

Bob's controller, instead of aileron trim.  I think the elevator

is the axis in desperate need of speed control, but I think the

rudder would be likely to get the 2nd vote, just because you

want to fine tune it so much.  Aileron trim I believe would

not benefit from speed reduction.  So, I removed the aileron trim

from the Safety-Trim controller. Very easy since it's just 4 wires.

Then, I wired in my rudder trim in it's place.  But, I wanted the

stick hat switches to run the aileron trim as before, so those

went to that system instead.  I used the standard Ray Allen

switch for the Rudder Trim switch using Bob's box.



That brought me back to the old days of wiring the switches and

how I accomplished it.  I believe with relays, I used diodes

on that switch.  On Bob's box it's simplified beyond that.

What you do is to hook the RED wire to ground, and that switches

that line to either side of the switch to ground the system

and drive the controller.  I think this is what I did on the

panel mounted elevator switch, but I used diodes because the

relay system required it.   Using Bob's controller though,

even though those 2 white wires tie together in the neutral

(non-activated) position, it causes no problem with the trim

controller, so it was Red wire to ground, and a white to each

of the 2 wires for rudder trim input.  Then it was just a matter

of the 2 wires to the servo, and done.



So anyway, it was a quick job tonight, but now all 3 axis are

trimmable, with the aileron and elevator on the stick (elev.

on the panel too), and the rudder on the panel only.

Can't wait to give it a couple thousand miles of testing

next week.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Bob-tcw wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Fellow listers,

 

    Thru this recent thread regarding a trim switch/relay problem I've 

 offered some troubleshooting ideas to help solve the current issue at 

 hand and have not brought up any of my commercial interests regarding 

 Safety-Trim.   Now that it seems to be sorted out and the root cause was 

 determined to be an issue with diodes and the Ray Allen trim switch I'm 

 inclined to chime in.     I realize different folks want different 

 levels of complexity in the aircraft and I fully support that.   As a 

 fellow RV-10 builder and a Glastar builder I have enjoy making the 

 decisions how my airplane will operate and how complex or not it would be.

    I'd just like to make you all aware that one of the benifits of the 

 Safety-Trim electronic servo controller is that the switch wiring 

 required to accomplish multiples points of control is greatly simplified 

 over that traditionally done with a series of relay decks.      All of 

 the switches used in a Safety-Trim system only need to be SPST for each  

 function,  each is just a simple closure to ground.    Safety-Trim 

 handles any comflicts between the pilot and the co-pilot and/or a panel 

 mounted switch asking for different directions.       This benefit is in 

 addition to that of the run-away prevention technology and 2 speed 

 preset functions also found in our controller.

 

 For all the details and to see our instruction manuals,   please visit 

 www.tcwtech.com

 

 Thank you,

 

 Bob Newman

 rnewman(at)tcwtech.com

 

 RV-10 #40176

 N541RV

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: Trim troubles

Yeah, you got me there!!!      .     It does say 'trim troubles' doesn't it???

 Some folks really do read my drivel!!!

 

 OK, now back to the question:  

  	  Quote: 	
		  Why are there TRIM switches on the stick AND the panel???



Linn

	
 William Curtis wrote:

 [quote]   [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> (wcurtis(at)nerv10.com)  Flap switches?  Where do see a mention of flap switches?  William http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/   ------

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:15 am Post subject: Trim troubles

It seems to me that the two problems with the stock RV10 trim that Tim

outlines should be able to be solved with less expense than a whole new

system (no offence Tim).  The resister that William Curtis suggested solves

one of them (speed), can anyone of you electronics guys design a time out

circuit that we could build and add to our Ray Allen system?



William, what value of resister are you starting with to test the system?



Gary

40274



--

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