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Stalls and Spins

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Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:08 am Post subject: Stalls and Spins

I read the same thing.  Too many students AND instructors were dying by 

either practicing or demonstrating spins.  Feds decided that, in their 

profound wisdom, it was better to teach stall avoidance and leave the spins 

alone.  No stall = no spin.  Spin and unusual attitude maneuver recovery 

should be learned, but probably should only be taught in a suitably equipped 

airplane by experienced instructors.

Deke

S5, NE Mich

do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		  snip... Plus from what I was told there were more training crashes years 

ago when it was included...

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Stalls and Spins

I'm not following the comments regarding "stall avoidance". I taught stall avoidance but I was also taught stall recovery as well as "falling leaf" stalls and unusual attitude recovery. If I remember right, I had to demonstrate a stall recovery for my check ride. Is this not typical?

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  I read the same thing. Too many students AND instructors were dying by either practicing or demonstrating spins. Feds decided that, in their profound wisdom, it was better to teach stall avoidance and leave the spins alone.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Stalls and Spins

on talk off stalls and spins  i added this ..........



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50426#50426

Too many thread on same topic ?

_________________
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Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: Stalls and Spins

For check ride, stalls are required, spins are not.



---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Stalls and Spins

yes but why not spins?  



Ludicrous to think that it is safer to NOT be able to demonstrate spin recovery.  From the news relases on Kitfox alone in the last few months it pretty evident that Kitfox pilots are still stalling and stall spinning them to the ground so  what did the check ride prove anyhow ?

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: Stalls and Spins

On Oct 31, 2007, at 9:35 PM, dave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   yes but why not spins?


	


Dave, before I bought my Kitfox, I did two spins in my instructor's 

aircraft, a Rans S6. The idea was to teach me how a spin develops and 

how to prevent it. At both occasions he asked me to get into a very 

tight left turn, then yelled: pull the stick, pull the stick! We went 

over end, I saw the sky, the earth, the sky, the earth and then he 

pulled us out of it. I didn't feel it coming and I was unable to 

recover from it. All I learnt was: Don't push the envelope, things 

happen all in a sudden!



 	  Quote: 	
		   From the news relases on Kitfox alone in the last few months it pretty 

 evident that Kitfox pilots are still stalling and stall spinning them 

 to the ground


	


That is correct. There are two ways to avoid a spin: a) learn to 

recover from it and b) don't put yourself in a situation where it may 

happen. I don't have to stomach for it so I follow rule b)



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



PS: If you feel like making a video of a spin, I'd love to see it, 

Dave, but please: be careful!

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: Stalls and Spins

At 01:35 PM 10/31/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  yes but why not spins?



Ludicrous to think that it is safer to NOT be able to demonstrate 

spin recovery.  From the news relases on Kitfox alone in the last 

few months it pretty evident that Kitfox pilots are still stalling 

and stall spinning them to the ground so  what did the check ride 

prove anyhow ?


	


I believe the additional reason spins were dropped by the FAA was 

that the only people being killed by spins were those so close to the 

ground that the spin was considered "unrecoverable", meaning they hit 

in less than one turn. Most modern span cans will recover if you 

simply let go of everything, though some will exceed Vne if left to 

their own devices through the pull-out, and all will use a bunch of 

altitude. (Twins are the exception to this rule. You NEVER spin a 

twin.) Since no amount of spin training will save you from a low 

altitude spin, the FAA's logic was to concentrate on awareness and 

avoidance. Unfortunately, in my experience this flight regime was 

taught very poorly, and I was left to my own devices to figure it 

out. (Aerobatic training helped as well.) Once I figured it out it 

made perfect sense and has proved useful on several occasions.



Accelerated stalls are much more insidious. I believe Leonard when he 

says people regularly die from them. Unfortunately, with some 

aircraft avoidance is your only option, no amount of training will 

allow you to recover once you've stalled and spun at low altitude. I 

am reminded of time I spent doing accelerated stalls in the 

Decathlon. If you were going fast and the turn was wide you could 

pull hard and get a nice, clean, even stall which was recovered 

simply by relaxing back pressure. However if the turn was tight and 

somewhat slow you got a spin every time. (Like it would be if you 

pulled hard, base to final.) If you went over the top it was easy to 

recover. However if you spun out the bottom you were on your back in 

a flash with a guaranteed E-ticket ride. The difference was, of 

course, determined by the rudder, but the Decathlon liked to tuck 

under because of the slow inside wing.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:02 am Post subject: Re: Stalls and Spins

Well  what ever is being taught certainly does not seem like enough , awareness or actual training.  



In Canada when I got mt PP in 1981 spins were part of the training and flight test as was spirals. When i did my Commercial training same thing plus under the hood as well as intense unusual attitude recovery.    To my knowledge now REC , and Private Licenses as well at Ultralight Private and Instructor permits only have to show awareness.  But Commercial ,Instructors and ATR licenses have to do actual training and on flight test.

Not enough training is given and should be more important  as airspeed is your lifeblood while flying.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: Re: Stalls and Spins -departure and approach

Stalls and Spins -departure and approach



I think also that stalls should have  more intense training for  departure and approach  stalls.   



What happens when going too slow turning final and too wide?  you feed more aileron then you need to straighten out your yaw with opposite rudder  ==>  BOOM  you inverted at  300 AGL or less.  Did they teach that in the "awareness course " ?  I really doubt it , but it happens time and time again as does departure stalls.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: Stalls and Spins

Not only does the instructor have to be competent to teach spins but the

plane has to be up to it.  My instructor like myself was well over the

200lb. mark.  When we were ready to start spins there is no way in, you know

where, we could get any where close to utility weight.  The only answer was

to get a lighter instructor to do the spins.



Like any aerobatic manoeuvre, spins exert uncommon forces on an aeroplane.

The plane has to be up to it.  Loading and maintenance are only part of the

equation.  An instructor who hasn't done any spins in a long time should get

himself checked out with one of his buddies before instructing that part of

the programme.



Insurance companies are wrong (in this case they want to be wrong) in one

respect.  Without the training your chances of surviving a spin are

dramatically reduced if you have never been there.  If you spin in after

your license test then they can claim it as pilot error...  This gets the

spin mixed in with a whole new quintal of fish that includes everything from

fuel problems to navigational errors!



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: Stalls and Spins

Not any more.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: Stalls and Spins

I figure the arrival stall ( base to final ) the most dangerous stall.  You

are trying to make the field and also keep the circuit tight.  The radio can

be burbling in your ears and you are trying to centre the runway and set up

a nice decent to the McAdam.....   Lots of things happening at the same

time.  



Its one reason I like to keep my down wind a little long.  By this I don't

mean flying in with the engine close to WOT and the nose pointed to the

stars or going a mile past the button.  The truth is when landing in

unfamiliar locations I'll stretch the down wind a little longer so I won't

have to set up my final glide until after all the turns are done and I'm

pretty well lined up .



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Stalls and Spins

Wow,  has this  topic stopped ? 



Certainly should not be as I have read of many  accidents in the last year alone that stem  back to the same thing and alot of Kitfoxes too. 



What does happen in the below scenario ? 



Dave



 	  Quote: 	
		  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Stalls and Spins -departure and approach 



I think also that stalls should have more intense training for departure and approach stalls. 



What happens when going too slow turning final and too wide? you feed more aileron then you need to straighten out your yaw with opposite rudder ==> BOOM you inverted at 300 AGL or less. Did they teach that in the "awareness course " ? I really doubt it , but it happens time and time again as does departure stalls.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Stalls and Spins- So critical

Funny how an important topic just goes by and yet planes still keep stalling and spinning.  



What happens   here ?  > 

Stalls and Spins -departure and approach 



I think also that stalls should have more intense training for departure and approach stalls. 



What happens when going too slow turning final and too wide? you feed more aileron then you need to straighten out your yaw with opposite rudder ==> BOOM you inverted at 300 AGL or less. Did they teach that in the "awareness course " ? I really doubt it , but it happens time and time again as does departure stalls.

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Stalls and Spins

OK, I'll keep this short and try not to upset anybody.  If a person flies his airplane and maintains 1.3 of stall, or is it 1.2.  Then he won't have a problem with spins or anything else thrown at him.  That is if he keeps within 45degrees of bank.  Now if you are crazy like me and do up to 90degrees of bank, then you need to increase your speed, plain and simple.  



I was having a conversation with a person about 2 weeks ago, he was telling me that he drops quit fast on approach, I asked him what speed he was flying at, he said 80, I was about to say "what is the problem then" when he continued and said his stall speed is 76, I think it was a colt, real short wing anyway.  I wanted to yell at him and tell him how stupid he is.  Because if you do 1.2 of stall that is about 94mph.  He is flying is airplane way to slow.  



In conclusion, get that speed up, and if you are concerned about floating in to land then do like I do, flatten out your approach and drag it in, works for me, or slip that last bit right to the numbers and then straighten things out and then flair it or wheel land it right on the numbers.



Want to do better at landing, practice, don't be writing on a forum.  I currently this year have over 4000 touch and goes and over 400 flights.  In all of this I find that the more you do the more comfortable you get with landing, of course the fun factor takes over as well.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Stalls and Spins

 	  Quote: 	
		  If a person flies his airplane and maintains 1.3 of stall, or is it 1.2. Then he won't have a problem with spins or anything else thrown at him. That is if he keeps within 45degrees of bank. Now if you are crazy like me and do up to 90degrees of bank, then you need to increase your speed, plain and simple. 

	




so if your stall is 38 mph  then  fly a simulated approach at  50 mph which is a tad more than 1.3  stall speed  ...........  then fly a skidded turn of 45 degree bank  as you would be on base to final but skidded......... now  opposite rudder to line back on runway,.........  highly likely you will flip inverted and spin..... don't try this without at least 3000 feet below you ..... you will likely lose a minimum of 500 to 1000 feet if you are fast -- if not  alot more.......... 



Sadly enough  enough i know instructors that have never spun an airplane.... go figure.........

avidfox

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 87

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:23 pm Post subject: Stalls and Spins

Quotes from AOPA   http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/topics/stall_spin.pdf



"Pilots who believe that aerobatic training will enable a

recovery from an inadvertent spin in the traffic pattern are

fooling themselves."



"Removal of the spin requirement for private pilots

created much dissent on the part of instructors and

other aviation professionals, who forecast an

immediate and dramatic rise in the number of spin

accidents. It didn't happen. In fact, since

elimination of the spin requirement for private

pilots, the incidence of stall/spin accidents has

actually decreased substantially."



"Student pilots, as a proportion of the pilot population, are

by far the least likely to suffer stall/spin accidents."

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Stalls and Spins

 	  dave wrote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  If a person flies his airplane and maintains 1.3 of stall, or is it 1.2. Then he won't have a problem with spins or anything else thrown at him. That is if he keeps within 45degrees of bank. Now if you are crazy like me and do up to 90degrees of bank, then you need to increase your speed, plain and simple. 

	




so if your stall is 38 mph  then  fly a simulated approach at  50 mph which is a tad more than 1.3  stall speed  ...........  then fly a skidded turn of 45 degree bank  as you would be on base to final but skidded......... now  opposite rudder to line back on runway,.........  highly likely you will flip inverted and spin..... don't try this without at least 3000 feet below you ..... you will likely lose a minimum of 500 to 1000 feet if you are fast -- if not  alot more.......... 



Sadly enough  enough i know instructors that have never spun an airplane.... go figure......... 	




I agree totally,



Now when you come in with 1.3 of stall, that is of course if you are doing things right as well, you know coordinated.  If you have troubles with keeping the ball centered than go grab a CFI and let him tell you that things aren't right instead of finding out yourself the wrong way.



As long as you factor in extra speed for doing out of the box maneuvers, than the fox WILL do it without any repercussions.  



The fox is very fun and if you treat it with respect you can have many flights of satisfaction and fun, as well as dazzle anybody on the ground.



I can tell about all the things I do here, but then somebody is going to call the local FSDO and turn me in.  AFter all isn't that what FAA stands for.  Frickn' Aviators against Aviators.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: Re: Stalls and Spins

another plane , not a Kitfox but a Titan  dives from 30 feet........... 



STALL?  most likely........



http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2007/11/plane_crash_pilot_identified.html



Witnesses saw Henriksen's Titan Tornado plane take off from McMinnville Municipal Airport just before 4 p.m. It climbed 30 feet into the air before diving nose-first to the ground,

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