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Jab on A KOLB

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ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: Jab on A KOLB

Well guys I am really leaning on putting a Jabaru engine on my MK3 Xtra  the info I have gathared  up seems to have better numbers  than a 912-S 

  a lower fuel burn rate, smoother running starting & shutting down, 2000Hr TBO , no need to sync one carb, a Lighter engine, Better looking than a Rotax, Just as reliable as a Rotax with  a faster cruise ,& still 1200 fpm climb solo , better sounding, and I will have $4000 to spend elsewhere on the plane      

  

 What do You think ?

 is there anything I should  be concerned about that I might be mising?

  

 Ellery in Maine 

 Building MK3Xtra

  

 do not archive





  [quote][b]

John Williamson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Jab on A KOLB

Ellery and all,



The Jabiru is a great engine, but not on a Kolb.



I flew the Kolbra with a Jabiru 2200 for 508 hours before I switched to the Rotax 912ULS.



The Kolbra is a clean airplane compared to the MarkIII Classic and Xtra. With the Jabiru, I could stay with a MarkIII Classic with a 912ULS  in level flight but could only manage a 700 foot per minute climb and the MarkIII Classic left me in the dust. 



The single carb is very susceptible to ice. I used to get it quite frequently but have never experienced it with the  912ULS.



The Jabriru has dual electronic ignitions but the weak point is the two distributor caps they send the spark thru. Very high humidity and a heavy dew kept me from starting the engine until they were disassembled and dried.



The Jabriru 2200 burned 4.0 gph, the same as the Rotax 912UL. The Rotax 912ULS burns 5.0 gph.



The performance differences between the direct drive Jabiru and the geared Rotax is more than enough to justify spending the money and getting the engine that will make the MarkIII Xtra perform like it wants to.



The Jabiru will start off of an 18 AH battery until the OAT gets below 50 degrees F., then you will need a larger battery. The Rotax will start on that same 18 AH battery down below freezing.



Since we don't fly our Kolbs for hire, the engine TBO is on condition and not the 1500 hours listed in the manuals.



A Jabiru 2200 has to be compared to the Rotax 912UL (85 vs 80 hp). To compare the Jabiru 2200 to the Rotax 912ULS (85 vs 100 hp) makes any numbers less meaningful.



Good luck with whatever you choose.



do not archive

_________________
John Williamson
Arlington, TX

Kolbra, 912ULS, 1640 hours
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: Jab on A KOLB

Ellery,



  When I was trying to decide on which engine to put on my Kolb MkIII, I checked out the Jabiru, also.  And like John H and John W said, the Jabiru doesn't make a good engine for the Kolbs.



  The biggest detriment about the Jabiru is the engines rpm range.  3300 rpm.  This is similar to the VW, or Corvair.  3300 rpm is just WAY TOO FAST to turn a prop.  The tip speed approaches the speed of sound and propeller efficiency is incredibly poor.  If you spin a prop at 3000 rpm, you have to keep the diameter fairly small.  A larger prop would produce more thrust, but you can't spin a 72 inch prop 3300 rpm.  The ideal propeller speed should be around 2000-2200 rpm.  The only way a Jabiru could do this is with a redrive unit.  If the Jabiru had a redrive, then it would be a LOT more appropriate.



  Like I said a day or two back.  If I had it to do again, I would seriously look at the Great Plains VW based engines, with a reduction drive.  Rick Neilsen responded that he had a direct drive VW, and the performance was terribly limited.  Now, he has a redrive VW, and the improvement is significant.  As an example, read this article from Ultralight News:  Read the paragraph at the bottom of the page.



  Somewhere I found a VW based engine builder that sold a completely finished running TURBO VW ENGINE W/ REDRIVE for $8800.  NOW, THAT WOULD BE THE WAY TO GO!!!   I'll keep looking for the website, and send it to you when I find it.



http://www.ultralightnews.com/airv98/airventure_smithvalley.htm





________________________________



From: ElleryWeld(at)aol.com

Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:04:13 -0500

Subject: Re: Jab on A KOLB

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com



Well guys I am really leaning on putting a Jabaru engine on my MK3 Xtra  the info I have gathared  up seems to have better numbers  than a 912-S



 a lower fuel burn rate, smoother running starting & shutting down, 2000Hr TBO , no need to sync one carb, a Lighter engine, Better looking than a Rotax, Just as reliable as a Rotax with  a faster cruise ,& still 1200 fpm climb solo , better sounding, and I will have $4000 to spend elsewhere on the plane



What do You think ?



is there anything I should  be concerned about that I might be mising?



Ellery in Maine



Building MK3Xtra



do not archive



________________________________



_________________________________________________________________

You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now.

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: Jab on A KOLB

Ellery, 



  In my opinion, I think you would be a thousand times better off looking at this Great Plains VW based engine with water cooled heads, 2180 cc redrive 120 hp engine.  The second link has the information, go to the bottom of the page.



http://www.greatplainsas.com/llc2.html



http://www.greatplainsas.com/llc1.html



Mike Welch   MkIII with GEO 1.0 liter turbo



  



________________________________



From: ElleryWeld(at)aol.com

Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:04:13 -0500

Subject: Re: Jab on A KOLB

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com



Well guys I am really leaning on putting a Jabaru engine on my MK3 Xtra  the info I have gathared  up seems to have better numbers  than a 912-S



 a lower fuel burn rate, smoother running starting & shutting down, 2000Hr TBO , no need to sync one carb, a Lighter engine, Better looking than a Rotax, Just as reliable as a Rotax with  a faster cruise ,& still 1200 fpm climb solo , better sounding, and I will have $4000 to spend elsewhere on the plane



What do You think ?



is there anything I should  be concerned about that I might be mising?



Ellery in Maine



Building MK3Xtra



do not archive



________________________________



_________________________________________________________________

You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now.

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject: Jab on A KOLB

Mike



VWs are great engines but a turbo would seem to be a bit too much. You can 

get all the power you want in a Kolb with a normally aspirated engine. My VW 

is a 2180cc engine but it is a low compression engine 7.8 to 1 and it turns 

out 80 HP at 3500 RPMs. If you must have more power one could turn a few 

more RPMs and/or higher compression. My engine was estimated to be around a 

150HP engine in a dune buggy. The down side would likely be less 

reliability. Remember this is a engine based on a 36 HP design.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

---

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject: Jab on A KOLB

Hi Rick,



  And my mistake, too.  The VW based engine I was referring to that had the turbo was made by RevMaster.  When I checked out the website, I noticed they are direct drive.  Boooo!  Then I went back to Great Plains and looked at their engines.  I think the water-cooled heads, redrive version would be an awesome way to go.

I think I did see somewhere where you may be able to put on the redrive unit from someone else on the RevMaster engine.  Like, buy a RevMaster engine, and put on a Great Plains redrive unit.  But, like you said, it may not be necessary.



  Since we are talking about a Kolb installation, it appears the reduction unit would likely be the 1.6 to 1 version.  They say that engine would produce 400 lb. of thrust with a 72 inch prop.  That sounds like a lot to me.



  Along time a go (5 years) I had my GEO 3 cyl/redrive engine and Ivo Prop running and fully operational.  I did not do any thrust tests on it, but I can tell you one thing, the forest thought a hurricane was a'blowing.  I have mounted my turbo unit (Garrett 1544) on my homemade tiny exhaust headers.  Cute as a bug's ear!  They fit in the palm of your hand....and you can almost see fingers sticking out past them.  The turbo is a super small unit, made especially for 1000 cc size engines.  The entire turbo is about the size of a Nerf foam football.



  I hope to get back to my engine in about a month.  I'm looking forward to seeing if the turbo shows a noticible difference.



  BTW, Rick.  You did fly the direct drive VW motor.  Yes?  And now you have the reduction drive.  Is this the same motor, with an added redrive, or an altogether new one?



  Here is a photo of the turbo in progress.  



      Mike Welch



[quote] From: NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Jab on A KOLB

 Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:07:38 -0500



 



 Mike



 VWs are great engines but a turbo would seem to be a bit too much. You can

 get all the power you want in a Kolb with a normally aspirated engine. My VW

 is a 2180cc engine but it is a low compression engine 7.8 to 1 and it turns

 out 80 HP at 3500 RPMs. If you must have more power one could turn a few

 more RPMs and/or higher compression. My engine was estimated to be around a

 150HP engine in a dune buggy. The down side would likely be less

 reliability. Remember this is a engine based on a 36 HP design.



 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 ---

close-up_of_turbo.jpg

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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:13 am Post subject: Jab on A KOLB

With that low compression ratio, can you run 87 octane?



richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>



 Mike



 VWs are great engines but a turbo would seem to be a bit too much. You 

 can get all the power you want in a Kolb with a normally aspirated 

 engine. My VW is a 2180cc engine but it is a low compression engine 

 7.8 to 1 and it turns out 80 HP at 3500 RPMs. If you must have more 

 power one could turn a few more RPMs and/or higher compression. My 

 engine was estimated to be around a 150HP engine in a dune buggy. The 

 down side would likely be less reliability. Remember this is a engine 

 based on a 36 HP design.



 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: Jab on A KOLB

Mike



Yes I flew a direct drive VW. The reduction drive motor is new because the 

redrive would not fit on it. The direct drive motors (all of them) have a 

extended crank shaft and most have a larger main bearing on the pulley end. 

The extended crank and/or main bearing interfere with the Valley/Great 

Plains redrive. Redrive engines are basically dune buggy engines. The 

advantage is that they are less expensive and available most anywhere.



The water-cooled heads solve the problem of heat build up at higher power 

levels. Maybe 80-90HP continuous. A bigger issue with a pusher is heat build 

up with extended running on the ground. The down side is weight. Rick Lewis 

is building a MKIIIX with water cooled heads and the Nikasil cylinders. Let 

see how that goes.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Jab on A KOLB

Speaking of that, a couple of things I learned a while back that can be considerations - resale value and insurance.



auto-engine conversions can make it very hard to impossible to get insurance. I learned this second-hand from some friends of mine in TX who opted for auto conversions in their planes. In one case, a mazda 20B going into a lancair. The builder did report that using parts from a known manufacturer helped the situation somewhat - i.e. he used a redrive, ignition system and apex seals from a place whose name escapes me at the moment. That seemed to placate the insurance co (I guess they want someone they can go after in the rare event they can't weasel out of their commitment).



Also, conversions tend to have lower resale value, tho the situation is better with known conversions on the market. This I also learned second hand.



As for the jab vs. 912 regarding these issues, I know first-hand that the 912 is a known quantity to ins. co's, so they're fairly willing to insure planes fitted with it. I don't know about the jabiru first hand, but I'd assume insuring a jab equipped plane should be fairly easy as well.



As for resale, it looks almost like a wash, with maybe the jab having slightly lower resale. The 912 is generally a good investment (apart from the recent cost increases, a seperate rant altogether) because you get a bit more back at resale time.



Best thing to do is buy the plane to fly rather than to sell, which will reduce the impact of poor resale. But stuff happens and you have to sell (like me and the FS II) so known motors are a good investment in those cases.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: Jab on A KOLB

Hi Rick,



  I think if I had to do it all over again, I might have chosen the combination you just describe your friend building; a Kolb MkIII Xtra, with the VW Great Plains engine, redrive, nikasil aluminum cylinders, and water cooled heads.  Add a in-flight adjustable IvopProp, and that would be my Christmas wish list.



  Personally, and I know this is just my opinion, I think the MkIII Xtra is the nicest looking airplane there is.



  But, alas, not to be.  Instead, I plug along working on my MkIII Classic, and GEO motor.  To paraphrase Popeye's "I yam what I yam"....all I can say is; "I got's what I gots".  I only hope it is as nice as many of the Kolbs I see in photographs of others on this list.



  I'm waiting around for the UPS to deliver a really huge box from TNK, courtesy of Travis.  I'm on the delivery schedule for today.  Yay!!



               I think I'll go install the windscreen while I wait on the big brown truck.         Mike Welch



Do not archive



  

[quote] From: NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Jab on A KOLB

 Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:47:51 -0500



 



 Mike



 Yes I flew a direct drive VW. The reduction drive motor is new because the

 redrive would not fit on it. The direct drive motors (all of them) have a

 extended crank shaft and most have a larger main bearing on the pulley end.

 The extended crank and/or main bearing interfere with the Valley/Great

 Plains redrive. Redrive engines are basically dune buggy engines. The

 advantage is that they are less expensive and available most anywhere.



 The water-cooled heads solve the problem of heat build up at higher power

 levels. Maybe 80-90HP continuous. A bigger issue with a pusher is heat build

 up with extended running on the ground. The down side is weight. Rick Lewis

 is building a MKIIIX with water cooled heads and the Nikasil cylinders. Let

 see how that goes.



 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



 ---

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: Jab on A KOLB

Ellery,

    I have 200 hrs on my Mark 3- C with 2200 Jabiru.e-mail me direct with any question you have and I will give you honest response.



ElleryWeld(at)aol.com wrote:[quote]    Well guys I am really leaning on putting a Jabaru engine on my MK3 Xtra  the info I have gathared  up seems to have better numbers  than a 912-S 

  a lower fuel burn rate, smoother running starting & shutting down, 2000Hr TBO , no need to sync one carb, a Lighter engine, Better looking than a Rotax, Just as reliable as a Rotax with  a faster cruise ,& still 1200 fpm climb solo , better sounding, and I  will have $4000 to spend elsewhere on the plane      

  

 What do You think ?

 is there anything I should  be concerned about that I might be mising?

  

 Ellery in Maine 

 Building MK3Xtra

  

 do not archive





  [quote][b]  [quote][b]

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