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chuck(at)mcculloughassoci
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: Xtra Information

Hello all,  

My name is Chuck and I’m new to the list.   Thanks to David Keys, who took me for a ride in his Xtra this weekend, I’m interested in finding a used Xtra.  But, before I get ahead of myself, I need some honest feedback from all of you on the suitability of this plane for my purpose.  

   

I can smooth out a good grass runway on my property.   Depending on the arrangement, it can be as long as 700’.  There is a fence at the end, but no tall obstacles.  The surrounding area is rural with a lot of options.  The approach to land would be over trees, though (the wind is S 90% of the time).  

   

My goal is to find a good STOL plane that both myself and a passenger (lets say 350lbs combined) can take off and safely and routinely on that strip.  The nearest “real”airport is about a 30 minute drive and we could use it for any extra heavy or extra hot days.  This is in north Texas, so flying season can be pretty hot, but we almost always will have a headwind to take off into.  I need to park the plane in my barn, which would require folding and unfolding the wings each time.  

   

I searched the archives and found several comments on routine folding, so I think I’m OK on that.  What I really need to hear from all y’all is your opinion on the T/O & landing distances that you experience in your airplanes in the real world.  TNK says 150’solo/200’dual, but they also say you can build one in 400 hours ;>.  I would also love to hear your opinions on engine/prop combos for safe STOL operations (that inflight adjustable IVO looked interesting).  

   

So, before I start travelling around the country looking at used ones, I need opinions!  

   

Also, anyone know of a good used Xtra for sale?  

   

Thanks,  

Chuck  

        [quote][b]

jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: Xtra Information

Chuck, with an approach over trees, 700 feet of  ground to use, & a fence at the end, Unless you have exceptional  piloting skills, you might want to join a Helicopter forum,    (smiles). kolbs are some of the best stol aircraft, but dang, that`s  short.  Jim

 [quote]   ---

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: Xtra Information

Chuck, I have a MKIII Classic with a 582, and fly from a 700' strip. 2  caveats: I take off downhill and land uphill on a slight slope. The approach to  land is over some giant TVA powerlines, but they are about 1200' from  touchdown. I do need to lose 300' in 1200' to get it down after crossing the  powerlines, or else fly a close base leg inside the lines and slam dunk the  final. Taking off heavy on a hot day and clearing the powerlines usually works  well, occasionally I need to turn and parallel the wires until I gain more  altitude, but that is not a problem. 

  

 The MKIII & 582 is sufficient for two people in this situation. If the  airstrip was perfectly flat, hot day and no headwind, I would not be comfortable  flying heavy. Not that the airplane wouldn't do it, but I would not be  comfortable. (And I try not to do things that I am not comfortable with. Bad for  the blood pressure...)

  

 Something that is uncertain from your post is how far away the trees are -  If they are right at the edge of your property and cannot be cut down - give it  up. If they are several hundred yards away, no problem.

  

 Hope this helps.

  

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

rowedenny(at)windstream.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: Xtra Information

[quote]      

 

      

I would also love to hear your opinions on engine/prop    combos for safe STOL operations (that inflight adjustable IVO looked    interesting).   

    

So, before I start travelling around the country looking at    used ones, I need opinions!   

    

Also, anyone know of a good used Xtra for    sale?   

    

Thanks,   

Chuck

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Chuck,For the best Stol performance as well as reliability you want a Rotax 912 for power. The speed range of Kolbs makes inflight adjustable props impracticle.While the IVO seems to work decent on smaller two strokes, for the 912 I would go with a tapered tip Warp Drive prop or maybe a Powerfin.Both of those are way higher quality than an IVO. Warp props are hands down the toughest.Good luck and be sure to check Barnstormers.com.Denny RoweMk-3, 2SI 690L-70, Powerfin 	
[b]

MKIIIX040

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 123
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:26 am Post subject: Xtra Information

Hey Chuck, I may have one for you. Is 3hrs. used  enough. 912 ul with 250 to 280 hrs. Owner said 250 Lockwood Aviation said  280. They disassembled , inspected and reassembled it before I purchased it.   70" 3 blade Warp. Full Lotus also available, with rudders , no  rigging need some minor work.  GOT LAKE?

 I'm on the FAA list for ELSA airworthiness  Inspection in my state, Me., waiting.

 Ellery may punish me for selling before I learn to  fly it.

 He has flown it during it's brief life as a  registered UL trainer.

 He now has his own Xtra kit, he's a builder not a  buyer.

  

 Contact me off list if you'd like.

 vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net (vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net)

  

 Vic

   [quote][b]

_________________
MKIIIX040
912UL

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: Xtra Information

"Chuck McCullough" asked: <<  ... you experience in your airplanes in

the real world.  TNK says 150'solo/200'dual, but they also say you can

build one in 400 hours. Thanks, Chuck >>



Chuck -



Although I built and fly a Mark-III "Classic," see if you think my

real-world experience help:



It took me 540 hours to build mine.  However, this included a few mods

beyond the stock airplane, such as a fold-down instrument panel and

wingtip hand-holds.



At a field elevation of 6500' msl, my Kolb is off the ground in less

than 300 feet, solo.  And this is usually at density altitudes

approaching 8000' as it is often quite hot here.  The 912 is an ideal

match for the Mark-III.



I was amazed at the improved takeoff performance (shorter takeoff

distance) I experienced while flying in the "lowlands" of Monument

Valley with the group last May!  (elev. 5100')



I'm sure your takeoff distances would be shorter in Texas.  



Dennis Kirby

Cedar Crest, NM

p.s. - who is "Ally'all?"

do not archive

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: Xtra Information

Vic 

 are you nuts ? you keep that plane ! You just finished it ,I will get you going in it  as soon as you have the airworthyness  slip on it, 

 Hey Guys Vic has lost his mind dont pay attention to him I hope its  just a temporary  thing he has been tipping the bottle a bit to much lately 

  

 Ellery 

 do not archive





  [quote][b]

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: Xtra Information

Here in SE Texas, with a 912S on a MkIIIC, I take off in about 200 feet, solo, if I use my flaps...  clean, it's about 400 feet (but I'm not really trying too hard).  Ascent rate in the summer is as much as 1400 fpm if I try hard...  on my typical "no sweat" take off, it'll be 1000 fpm.  Either is like an elevator ride. 



While I could routinely operate out of the 700 foot strip described, I definitely wouldn't recommend it unless the pilot had at least 100 hours in the MkIII.  Too many things to go wrong in too little space; power, flaps and ungodly ascent rates only get you so far. 



  -- Robert



P.S.  When I first moved in to my airport home, my neighbor came out to watch my take off, with a portable aviation radio in his hand to talk to me... he flys a Cessna.... he was standing next to my wife and, later, she told me he said "Holy sh--!" when I took off, and then, a moment later, to me over the radio he says, "Is that all ya got?"  (He hadn't broadcasted his first comment!)   

On 11/8/07, Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil (Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL" <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil (Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil)>



"Chuck McCullough" asked: <<  ... you experience in your airplanes in 

the real world.  TNK says 150'solo/200'dual, but they also say you can

build one in 400 hours. Thanks, Chuck >>



Chuck -



Although I built and fly a Mark-III "Classic," see if you think my 

real-world experience help:



It took me 540 hours to build mine.  However, this included a few mods

beyond the stock airplane, such as a fold-down instrument panel and

wingtip hand-holds.



At a field elevation of 6500' msl, my Kolb is off the ground in less 

than 300 feet, solo.  And this is usually at density altitudes

approaching 8000' as it is often quite hot here.  The 912 is an ideal

match for the Mark-III.



I was amazed at the improved takeoff performance (shorter takeoff 

distance) I experienced while flying in the "lowlands" of Monument

Valley with the group last May!  (elev. 5100')



I'm sure your takeoff distances would be shorter in Texas.



Dennis Kirby  [quote][b]

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

chuck(at)mcculloughassoci
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: Xtra Information

Thanks all for the comments!  

   

Even though  I have a lot of GA time, I will definitely be trailering my plane to a longer strip until I can fly it expertly.  My take away from all your comments is that I’ve got plenty of length for ground roll.  So, if I can do something about those pesky trees…  I actually found a place where I won’t have any approach or departure obstacles and 700’ and oriented correctly for winds.  I’ll just have to do some dirtwork.  No problem.  

   

So, I’m in the market for an Xtra 912 or 912S or no engine at all.  My though is that the 912S isn’t much more expensive than the 912 and you get 20hp more.  

   

Vic – you really ought to keep your plane at least until you have 40hrs on it.  Then if you still want to sell, shoot me a note.  

   

Thanks,  

Chuck  

        [quote][b]

MKIIIX040

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 123
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: Xtra Information

Well Ellery is partially right I've been losing my  mind gradually for years.

 But as for tipping the bottle, mine is so big  it tips me.

  

 Vic

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

_________________
MKIIIX040
912UL

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: Xtra Information

Chuck, I just want to comment on the Ivo in flight adjustable prop. It

depends on the engine you use. For the two strokes, according to Rotax

documents, the prop has to be adjusted so that the engine reaches full

RPM in level flight. If you set the prop to do that your engine will

perform properly. If you don't, it it will exhibit either high EGT

when operated with too little pitch, or high CHT if operated with too

much pitch.

Generally, when thinking of controllable pitch, it's assumed the prop

is set for proper climb performance and then pitch is increased for

better cruise performance. As I found out the hard way when setting up

a new Warp Drive prop on a 582, just 2 degrees of pitch separate an

engine that performs properly from one that will not rev past 4500

RPM. I didn't fly it much, just enough to get it around the pattern

and back on the ground, and it was a very low pattern at that, but I

didn't see any tendency for the engine to pick up RPM during the brief

time I was in level flight. Perhaps the response of the engine would

be different if it were started at the peak of the power curve and

pitch was increased from there, I can't say, but given the reports of

others on this list, and my own experience setting up props, I would

say you would have a range of 400 to 600 RPM to adjust the prop and

still keep the engine within Rotax recommended operating parameters.

My other feelings about Ivo's are well documented here. I didn't mount

the medium Ivo that came with my HKS powered trike because of the

torque schedule and flimsy mounting of this prop on this engine. In

brief, the HKS does not have the drive lugs required by this prop so

power would have been transferred through six 8mm screws with no

shank, which essentially means it would be mounted by the metal

between the thread valleys of the screws, which is less than 1/4".

Vic, I don't know your situation, but you may be suffering from winter

time blues and your attitude will change with sunny skies and warm

temps. If that's the case, just pretend you don't own a plane for the

winter and get a marvelous surprise in the spring.  If, on the

other hand you are in financial or medical distress, do what you have

to, that's life these days. I think I can speak for everyone here that

whatever you decide you will be in our thoughts as we all wish you

better days.



Rick

On Nov 8, 2007 7:58 PM,  <ElleryWeld(at)aol.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Vic

 are you nuts ? you keep that plane ! You just finished it ,I will get you

 going in it  as soon as you have the airworthyness  slip on it,

 Hey Guys Vic has lost his mind dont pay attention to him I hope its  just a

 temporary  thing he has been tipping the bottle a bit to much lately



 Ellery

 do not archive

 ________________________________

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:30 pm Post subject: Xtra Information

I like your thinking! -- bottles are seldom big enuf -- what part of Maine are you in?RussOn Nov 9, 2007, at 9:43 AM, Vic Peters wrote:

[quote]Well Ellery is partially right I've been losing my mind gradually for years.

But as for tipping the bottle, mine is so big it tips me.

 

Vic

do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
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[b]

MKIIIX040

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 123
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: Xtra Information

Thanks for your concern everyone but Ellery is just yankin your chain.

Next time I see him he'll get a sharp blow to the head like that "I could

have had a V8" commercial.

I do partake of some libation occasionally, no more than usual, less than

most. Age limits a lot of things.

I've always been financially stressed and people that are always happy just

make me want what they are taking.

My thinking was that learning to fly from scratch at 59 in a Kolb that has

to be wheel landed at 60mph may not be the best idea since my 2D

coordination is marginal let alone 3D.

I'm thinking of building an experimental Taylorcraft. I figure once no one

can afford a Cub anymore they will become popular.



Vic

Maine

Xtra 912   do not archive

_________________
MKIIIX040
912UL

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:48 am Post subject: Xtra Information

At 10:22 AM 11/10/2007, Vic Peters wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm thinking of building an experimental Taylorcraft. I figure once no one

can afford a Cub anymore they will become popular.


	


Vic, ORIGINAL Cubs are outta sight pricewise, but a replica (experimental) 

Cub should be no more expensive than a replica Taylorcraft.  Not to put the 

T-Craft down, I owned one for years; it's really a much better flying 

airplane than the Cub (remember, C.G. Taylor designed the Cub first, then 

the T-Craft as an improved design).  Even an original T-Craft can be had in 

the sub $20K range for a good flying example.



                                 -Dana



do not archive

--

--

A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a unicorn.

rowedenny(at)windstream.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:43 am Post subject: Xtra Information

---

MKIIIX040

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 123
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: Xtra Information

Your probably right Denny, Thing is if you land at the correct attitude the

nose is only about 12" off the runway. If the tail hits first your stalled.

Course none of that bothers Ellery.

Maybe I should get longer legs from Travis.

Vic   do not archive

Xtra not Classic



Vic,

That Kolb is going to be easier to land than a T-Craft clone, and as far as

having to wheel land it at 60 mph: Who in the heck sold you that dodo? Do

they have a wing center gap seal on their Kolb?

_________________
MKIIIX040
912UL

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: Xtra Information

Vic



Wow you just finished your Kolb and thinking of selling it? If money is an 

issue the Kolb is pretty hard to beat. If this is your first built you can't 

imagine the great feeling of flying something you built.



As for landing one it really isn't a problem. Get some training in a Kolb or 

similar light plane . There is only one thing that could cause you a problem 

as a new Kolb pilot and that is the plane's ability to slow down very 

quickly. You can almost eliminate the issue by carrying power down to the 

landing flair or even later. I try to three point all my landings. When you 

three point you landings you are landing slower and you can get your tail 

down and control your rollout better even in cross winds. It works for me.



I'm not sure that longer gear legs would help the landing situation you seem 

concerned about. New Kolb did at least at one point require you sign a 

agreement to decrease the angle of attack on the wings when you add the 

longer gear legs. The short gear legs put you in almost a wheel landing 

attitude and keep you from taking off before you have a extra margin of 

airspeed on take off.  I think it's a safety issue. There are certainly 

benefits of longer gear legs but you might want to wait till you have more 

experience.



Again worth what you paid for it.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

---

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: Xtra Information

Vic just because the tail hit the runway first doesnt mean you have already stalled the airplane especially with your short gear legs 

  

 I will be up there some time soon and show you how to Land it, dont get nervous but Im going to put the tail on the ground first every Landing so you can get the picture 

  

 I'll help you out  a Kolb is much better to fly than an old Taylorcraft anyway 

  

 Ellery 100 miles from Vic

 do not archive

  





  [quote][b]

MKIIIX040

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 123
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:30 am Post subject: Xtra Information

Taylocraft is a done deal.

 Vic do not archive

   [quote][b]

_________________
MKIIIX040
912UL

rowedenny(at)windstream.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: Xtra Information

[quote] ---

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